Thoughts on Libertarianism

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Where you and I will not likely agree Thunderbolt is that I do not believe that the morality you rightly see as essential for a stable, free and prosperous society is at all possible apart from it’s belief in that supra human court beyond which there is no appeal.[/quote]

I don’t disagree with this. I believe morality exists independent of humans.[/quote]Ok, I believe that. That is a very precise and judicious way of stating it. You won’t bite because it ain’t yer thing, at least here, but I would love one day to see how justified you are in that very correct, as far as it goes, position. I BTW do stand by my previously stated opinion of your being one of our most capable PWI posters.
[/quote]

Translation: I want thunderbolt to share his religious views so I can attack him for not worshipping the Christian God in exactly the same way I do. If he does not convert, I will repeatedly tell him he is dead in sin and will never be happy in life without knowing his personal situation properly.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:So, since YOU don’t have the answers, you’ll avoid the problem by posting a link and walking away. That’s some seriously weak shit right there. >>>[/quote]Since YOU’RE not really interested in answers I won’t take the considerable amount of time required to provide the ones I have to your shotgun attacks because that time can be better spent with people who may actually in fact want those answers. Instead, I will provide you a link to a very competent man of God from yesteryear who has the answers you lie in saying you want just in case you ever actually do.
[/quote]

No, he has you now. People who bother to ask you hard questions are often told that you are “short on time” and given other similar excuses.

I hope you keep it up, because bigflamer seems like the persistent type, and if you continually ignore him? More people will see you for the fraud you are.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Atheist Johnny-come-latelies are all talk. They criticize the development of the West after we religious did all the heavy lifting for them. After Christian men settled the major issues for them. Including slavery. Why argue with them? They’re comparing some hypothetical world where man’s history starts with widespread atheism. And because of that, they “could’ve done better.” It’s liking arguing with Marxist and Anarcho-Capitalist utopias. No point. [/quote]

Who as ever said that? History is what it is because of religion, we are where we are (for better or worse) because of religion.

The majority of atheists simply think that it has outlived its purpose and should now (i.e. not 100 years ago) be shelved away with belief in ritual slaughter.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Is compromise the lubricating agent on our slide to statism/tyranny? Is it utopianism to believe that we haven’t already long passed the point of no return? If the answer to either of those is yes then what is the logical extension of that?[/quote]

Yes and no.

Yes, compromise lubricates the process, no, it will not last forever.

Sooner or later the powers that be will find themselves with their back to a wall while being offered a cigarette, the next generation will remember the experience and behave.

The one after hat wont and it will start all over again.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Atheist Johnny-come-latelies are all talk. They criticize the development of the West after we religious did all the heavy lifting for them. After Christian men settled the major issues for them. Including slavery. Why argue with them? They’re comparing some hypothetical world where man’s history starts with widespread atheism. And because of that, they “could’ve done better.” It’s liking arguing with Marxist and Anarcho-Capitalist utopias. No point. [/quote]

Not quite.

A lot of Western civilization was wrestled out of he Churches arms.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

…but I would love one day to see how justified you are in that very correct, as far as it goes, position. I BTW do stand by my previously stated opinion of your being one of our most capable PWI posters.[/quote]

So, would you be making the determination as to “how justified” I am?

[quote]pushharder wrote:

No, he’d be submitting it to a committee.

I’m one of the committee members.[/quote]

You’re in luck - I’ve got a 2-for-1 special going.

[quote]pushharder wrote:

Now here I was runnin’ ‘round thinkin’ how curious you’d be 'bout who all the other committee members were…[/quote]

Well, I was starting to wonder where the tie-break was going to come from. Who are they? I’ll need to privately start the influence peddling.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

Not even close to the same.

[/quote]

Not the same as what? Not the same as slavery? So it wasn’t slavery then?

Really? White Christians believed that did they? Most ‘white Christians’ in the era we’re talking about couldn’t read and write, wouldn’t have known what ‘science’ was and many were enslaved to non-white masters - e.g. the Russian slaves of the Khanate of Khiva.

BTW - The term ‘Aryan’ in the nineteenth century referred to people who speak Indo-European languages and had none of the connotations that the Nazis later gave it.

They? “White” Christians? Is that what Irish peasants at the time thought? What about “white” Christians in the Balkans for example? Is that what they thought? Can we define the term “white” please?

See above. Who are the ‘white Christians’ you are talking about.

[quote]
That is a very aryan line of thought, and as the author points out, one that was being taught widespread in the universities of the day. [/quote]

It’s an Indo-European linguistic line of thought is it? Or do you mean in the Nazi sense? A very Nordic line of thought? Are there ‘very black lines of thought’ too?

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

…but I would love one day to see how justified you are in that very correct, as far as it goes, position. I BTW do stand by my previously stated opinion of your being one of our most capable PWI posters.[/quote]

So, would you be making the determination as to “how justified” I am?[/quote]I didn’t see this until just now. I am entirely unqualified to so much as state why 2+2=4 on my own. I would subject your answer to the same standard I subject everyone else’s to. You once told me you “respected” the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646 which to be perfectly frank I didn’t take all that seriously. Chapter II section II is that standard distilled from the soundest non directly inspired historico-critical exegesis of the holy bible I believe will ever exist.

I will confess that you have been one of the people here I have spent some time thinking about what a debate would be like with. I know we do not agree where it really counts most. Pookie’s another one. You guys are both very exceptionally capable. I’m not afraid of ANYBODY, but I’m not necessarily drawin down on ya either. lol (friendly chuckle, no sarcasm), you’re aggravated already at what you perceive as my arrogant presumption.

You probably figured I would answer your question with some version of how I actually did answer it. I would say “I’m just the messenger” right? That’s what us fundie’s always say. Well’ you are correct. That is pretty much what I’m sayin. I will also confess that I have been curious about you for a long time. Oscillating between Catholic? Some politically conservative neo-christian liberal of one variety or another? Philosophical religionist of some kind (Christian scientist, non totally stupid new age system of belief, Hindu, Buddhist)? General non religious skeptic who nonetheless believes in God? A few other less likely possibilities, but none of these REALLY fits.

My hats off to you here as well. I cannot tell and that takes some doin because I have extensive experience and am rather adept at sniffin out people’s beliefs. That sounds arrogant too I know, but I can’t help it. Anyway, I have tons of respect for you, but like I say, I know we don’t agree where it counts most. Yes, I do realize that none of this post actually addresses my statement concerning your justification for your own beliefs.

[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< (Tiribulus) will repeatedly tell him he <<<>>> will never be happy in life >>>[/quote]Where have I said that unbelievers are by definition always “unhappy”, whatever exactly you mean by that.

[quote]Makavali wrote:<<< I hope you keep it up, >>>[/quote]Have no fear, I will and you just may get your wish of more people seeing what a fraud I am. While yer at it you can dig up some examples of me saying that I will answer somebody’s hard questions and having failed to do so. Oops. I forgot. All you cheap mud slinging accusers are exempt from providing examples of your accusations. This will be the part where you say “I’m not pouring through your posts to find what you said”. You’re another one Mak. Not only are you better than this overall, but you have an honorable streak that I’ve seen a couple times. Your hatred of my God and myself brings out the worst in you.

One last thing. I have been asked exactly two hard questions or been given two seemingly plausible refutations of the system of thought I espouse. One by Elder Forlife that was further explored by Cortes, (this one was the best). Cortes has one foot in the air headed toward my camp epistemologically speaking (but not quite there) and one by Kamui. I actually think of all the unbelievers on this entire site Kamui has the best understanding of my views. His attempted refutation had the potential of being exactly right on only because he actually does understand at the least the raw form of my system of thought. Not because he’s a million times more brilliant than the dozens who are still not even close, but because he pays attention and he is not intellectually impulsive. He actually muses rather substantially over what people say. I respect that and do the same.

Forgive me my friend. Sqauting_Bear is very much on the right track as well though he hasn’t actually tried as much to refute my epistemology (which did not begin with me) as he has my Christianity as a whole, being that he is a muslim. He also thinks long and hard before answering. It was this that made it impossible for us to continue right now. He has other responsibilities and our dialog was consuming more of his time than he was able to give it.

This post, like many others, has stretched far beyond my original intent. Sorry.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Not even close to the same.[/quote]

Not the same as what? Not the same as slavery? So it wasn’t slavery then?[/quote]

Yes, they were both slavery; but to imply that there was no difference between the two would indeed be intellectually dishonest. Equating the two would be like comparing a P-51 Mustang to a B-17. Do you think all slavery in the history of man was the same? I’m aware of the differences, but I’m not so sure that you are.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
I don’t think the book is suggesting that “the white man is the root of this despicable activity”, not at all. What he was suggesting was that white christians believed in the superiority of their race, and that they believed both science AND their religion gave them this belief.[/quote]

Really? White Christians believed that did they? Most ‘white Christians’ in the era we’re talking about couldn’t read and write, wouldn’t have known what ‘science’ was and many were enslaved to non-white masters - e.g. the Russian slaves of the Khanate of Khiva.

BTW - The term ‘Aryan’ in the nineteenth century referred to people who speak Indo-European languages and had none of the connotations that the Nazis later gave it.[/quote]

I’m not speaking to the common man, but to the intellectual and political leadership in the western world at the time. The common peoples you speak of looked to this leadership and wouldn’t have been able to really question them, nor would they have had any real desire to do so.

“Aryan” refers to peoples originating from the Caucasus mountains, currently in South Russia, just north of Iran. In fact, that region was a part of Iran, for its history, until the mid 1800’s. Also, this is where the term “Caucasian” comes from, unless I’m mistaken. (Bradley makes a point in his book that the term “Iran” derives from the the word “Aryan”)

This is all part of an unproven theory, more like a story I think, of an Aryan migration from this corner of the world to various other corners of the world, including (westward) to the forests of Germany. According to the story, these Aryans maintained the “purity of their blood” by killing the peoples they encountered instead of mating with and integrating with.
Supposedly, the Aryan gave way to the Teutons, who continued to migrate from the forests of Germany. Teutons had made their way to the British Isles continued to put a premium on their racial purity by killing and conquering the native peoples without integrating. These Teutons became known “Anglo-Saxons”. It’s believed by folks who put allot of stock in racially deterministic theories, that if they’d integrated, the great western flow of civilization would’ve been lost. Teddy Roosevelt himself had said “The world would’ve halted had it not been for the Teutonic conquests in alien lands”.

The above isn’t just some wacky story that wandered through history, it was fully believed in by the intellectual elite in the western world, and actively taught by the universities. Racially deterministic theories, unfortunately, were apparently all the rage for quite a while in the history of the western world.

You should really just go ahead and read the book.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
They believed that it was their divine moral right to establish their dominion, by force if necessary.[/quote]

They? “White” Christians? Is that what Irish peasants at the time thought? What about “white” Christians in the Balkans for example? Is that what they thought? Can we define the term “white” please?[/quote]

Perhaps “Caucasian” is an easier term for you to digest?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Whether or not they believed in slavery, as there certainly was plenty of white christians at the time who did not support slavery, but they most certainly did believe that they were the superior race, and that in order to achieve “peace and civility in society”, the white christian must establish their dominion. [/quote]

See above. Who are the ‘white Christians’ you are talking about.[/quote]

What is being discussed is the teachings and beliefs of both the intellectual and political universe of the day. Yes, we’re talking about Teddy Roosevelt, William Howard Taft, Secretary of State Robert Lansing, Peter Burnett, Lewis Morgan, Samuel Morton, Jedidah Morse, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Thomas Hart Benton, Bishop George Berkeley, Josiah C. Nott, Lewis Morgan, Francis Parkman, Nathaniel Southgate, John Burgess, and many others.

In his book, Bradley also states: “And while Lincoln had technically freed the slaves, by 1905 disenfranchisement and restrictive Jim Crow laws invisibly re shackled the American black man, and the local lynching tree had plenty of branches left.”

Do you really believe that the western world at that time wasn’t dominated by white christians with a full belief in their racial superiority? You can’t be that ignorant, right?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
That is a very aryan line of thought, and as the author points out, one that was being taught widespread in the universities of the day. [/quote]

It’s an Indo-European linguistic line of thought is it? Or do you mean in the Nazi sense? A very Nordic line of thought? Are there ‘very black lines of thought’ too?[/quote]

See above

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Nothing in recent memory here on PWI exposes a bozo better than the slavery issue.[/quote]

Funny, I was thinking the very same thing w/r/t right wing honky’s, who always circle the wagons and go super duper defensive whenever the issue comes up.

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:So, since YOU don’t have the answers, you’ll avoid the problem by posting a link and walking away. That’s some seriously weak shit right there. >>>[/quote]Since YOU’RE not really interested in answers I won’t take the considerable amount of time required to provide the ones I have to your shotgun attacks because that time can be better spent with people who may actually in fact want those answers. Instead, I will provide you a link to a very competent man of God from yesteryear who has the answers you lie in saying you want just in case you ever actually do.
[/quote]

No, he has you now. People who bother to ask you hard questions are often told that you are “short on time” and given other similar excuses.

I hope you keep it up, because bigflamer seems like the persistent type, and if you continually ignore him? More people will see you for the fraud you are.[/quote]

Our super duper christian friend, Tirib, always seems to run short on time whenever he get’s put in the corner. You see this from him consistently on this forum…sad, really.

All I asked were some simple questions.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Nothing in recent memory here on PWI exposes a bozo better than the slavery issue.[/quote]

Funny, I was thinking the very same thing w/r/t right wing honky’s, who always circle the wagons and go super duper defensive whenever the issue comes up.
[/quote]

Honky’s? You mad?