[quote]vroom wrote:
It may be possible to cut the head off of the snake in Iran.
If ever there was a case for attempted surgical strikes to throw the government into disarray, so that alternate factions could organize and compete for control, Iran is the textbook for it.
[/quote]
That’s not really how these things work. The odds are far better that a young, restive, and potentially pro-Western population instead rallies around the flag in response to American or Israeli airstrikes.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
I don’t know about that. I think one of the major reasons for moving in to Iraq was to have an outpost from which to monitor Iran and be able to more effectively watch, manage, and act if necessary. That and oil. Liberation of the Iraqi people was just a nice bonus if indeed they end up a lot better off than under Saddam.[/quote]
I agree with this for the most part. Iraq is indeed the most logical country to invade of the three members of the Axis of Evil.
It seems, however, that most people on here are ignorant of the fact that Israel has previously unilaterally attacked Iraq (1981) with surgical bombing runs to destroy Iraqi nuclear capabilities. To think that they won’t repeat the same action Iran is short sighted at best.
Israel will play our game, and sit down and shut up only so long. Then when they feel that their safety is in danger, they will strike with or without the U.S.'s blessing. And I don’t blame them one bit.
awesome point grey.
I met quite a few soldiers in Thailand who were finishing up their tour of duty who actively support the cause. The naive “This is for freedom” or “The terrorists are coming” anthem was missing from their stories. They were all acutely aware of the conseqeunces of war. I didn’t get the impression that they thought we just needed to bomb the shit out of the area and kill every living thing. They do feel the need to stay the course. It was interesting to hear a 22 year old talk about this being a generational war. Logic points to the fact that we cant just cut and run, but it was really cool to hear it from someone who was ducking mortar rounds the week before.
Back on point, according to some of these guys, the insurgency isn’t a freedom thing, they are defending their families. The individual is treated differently in their culture as they are used to neighbors and peers dying on a regular basis. We Americans cancel our congressmens vacations to ‘save’ a woman who has been in a vegetative state for 10 years. To me, it is a different perspective, not necessarily evil. The people on the streets are sacrificing for the family not for the religon. . . it is a preservation of family and culture. The marines also said that they would go door to door, reacting to information that an insurgent was in an area. The family would do anything to protect their son or daughter or friend in the neighborhood, even though the bombs were killing other Iraqis. BUT, they would be very willing to give up information on people in the same insurgency, just not as personally connected to them.
these are people, interested in the same things you are. Having a home and food, and a family in it when they get there. To suggest that they are godless sand monkeys that need to be eradicated like roach infestation lacks common judgement and insight. Turn off the Xbox, there is no high score here.
And some dirt ass poor iraqi is not gonna hop aboard a plane and bomb your neighborhood.
Oh, and my $.02 on the initial post. As a designer on the Raptor and JSF, I really doubt that Iran has ANYTHING that could knock one of them out of the sky. The only thing that will defeat those is electronic malfunction or pilot error.
The result from the war games are stunning.
No Grey, you will learn that around here considering other countries to be full of “humans” and “children” and “brothers”, you are considered a leftist psycho who hates freedom, supports terrorists, and should immediately have their phone tapped. They are the enemy! Who cares what happens to them! It has no affect on us!. Until they bomb fucking buildings with our own planes.
America has lost credibility all over…another war will not start due to the political landscape, as much as the neocons would like. Hopefully we’ll get the damned Republicans out of office, and the Democrats will start being Democrats again.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
No Grey, you will learn that around here considering other countries to be full of “humans” and “children” and “brothers”, you are considered a leftist psycho who hates freedom, supports terrorists, and should immediately have their phone tapped. They are the enemy! Who cares what happens to them! It has no affect on us!. Until they bomb fucking buildings with our own planes.
America has lost credibility all over…another war will not start due to the political landscape, as much as the neocons would like. Hopefully we’ll get the damned Republicans out of office, and the Democrats will start being Democrats again.[/quote]
The Democrats were in power in Congress from 1954-1994. Suddenly, the Republicans take over and terrorists pop up all over? C’mon Irish, you’re way better than to believe that.
Conservatives attack libs because you don’t understand the unique position of this country. Do you honestly think we’d have anywhere near the peace in the world we have if the USA wasn’t the ‘big dog in the house’? The Islamic countries want to push us out of this position and dictate terms. They want to resurrect the Ottoman Empire. They will use terrorism, bio weapons, nukes, you name it – and frankly, we conservatives don’t want to live in a world dominated by Sharia Law.
This is a war to the death and the winner dominates the globe for the forseeable future. Our children will either salute our flag or pray facing Mecca 5 times/day. Pick one. I choose the first.
Lets be realistic, we can NOT invade Iran. The only country that would support us is Israel and if they were involved every Arab state in the world would join Iran in what they would call the new Crusade.
Since George II has already invaded 1 nation for no good reason and is a joke around the world (and per his approval ratings not far from one here as well)our best hope now is that somehow democracy works in Iraq and the people of Iran, not he US Army, decide they want a better standard of living as well… I’m sure we can help them covertly with “regime change” just as we have done in countless other countries.
I agree with Grey, and that is an excellent point.
War never ends, it just choses different teams. If you fight it you will have to live it. If you lose it it will be passed onto another to fight it for you. If you fight it for another you will have to be brainwashed into believing that it is your fight. How do you do that? Bring it to your doorstep.
I personally do not believe that anyone is here to fight for the freedom of another, so any country that has intervened for the purpose of freeing another race i believe is wrong. If people cannot rise up above their captors to fight for their freedom, the freedom of their brothers and sisters, their mothers and fathers, their children and their people, then maybe they are do not realise that they are not free. If they as yet have not come to this realisation then freeing these poeple will only put them into a greater state of delusion, one that is more dangerous than suppresion…one that will lead to a complete integration of a culture, therefore losing all that it is that your ancestor were.
There are many examples in history of races and poeple that have been oppressed by other races and countries. Whether the agenda be economic, racial or just plain power mongering it has happened, some races have failed in their attempt to secure their freedom, but most have been saved. And look where those people are now. But…those that did fight against those that held their poeple as slaves, or their country in oppression, secured their freedom.
Nobody is here to save another. At this stage of our civilisation, what we should have done is make sure that no country, people or person has the capcity to develop or manufacture anything that would allow them to follow the path of destruction and annihilation of another for whatever agenda they may be harboring. Looking back in history, the countries that have started wars, and fought wars were purchasing the tools to do so from the ones that they would eventually fight! Now i’m not sure about you guys but this makes me ask certain questions that i do not believe fall into the realm of “conspiracy” as it is so blatantly obvious…we just can’t accept that the deaths of countless innocent people is because of money. No we wouldn’t even delve into that realm, it would make us question the fabric of man. One that we would have to decide whether we are the same as them or something different.
That something different involves not giving credence to the thoughts and mentality of those that want to perpetuate war for whatever agenda. One thing i guarantee their agenda does not paint the picture of you along with your loved ones, your wifes/husbands, children and friends living and experiencing this world in the limited time that you have been allocated without the notion of the impedingly increasing necessity of the fact that soon…if things progress the way that they are, that war will be fight on your lawn, and you as a father, or a son will be fighting to keep your home.
Just like we did.
Keep your minds clear of this level of negativity, this level of hatred, hatred for others because of what you have been shown.
A man will never judge another man. A real man will never accept the view of another without meeting the one being judged or the one being portrayed, and make his own decision about who he is and what he is about. Where he has come from and what has driven him to that point. What he has been exposed to and what he has been stripped of. To do so makes you the pawn of the perpetrator.
It makes you the battery of the machine that is there to serve a purpose that is not your own, one that is not based on the moral fibre that lies somewhere deep inside us all…as we are all brothers.
When your blood is not red…then you can say you are not my brother. Until that point…we are just misunderstood or should i say misled.
I’m not advocating invading Iran. I just have a question.
We have a little over 100,000 troops in Iraq. The democrats are saying we should have sent over 500,000. They also say we are already spread too thin. How can it be both?
Why can’t those other 400,000 be sent to Iran?
[quote]Conservatives attack libs because you don’t understand the unique position of this country. Do you honestly think we’d have anywhere near the peace in the world we have if the USA wasn’t the ‘big dog in the house’? The Islamic countries want to push us out of this position and dictate terms. They want to resurrect the Ottoman Empire. They will use terrorism, bio weapons, nukes, you name it – and frankly, we conservatives don’t want to live in a world dominated by Sharia Law.
This is a war to the death and the winner dominates the globe for the forseeable future. Our children will either salute our flag or pray facing Mecca 5 times/day. Pick one. I choose the first. [/quote]
Ahahahahahaha.
Don’t look now, but the real player for world domination is going to be China, the Middle East doesn’t hold a candle to them.
It’s sad that you think “libs” don’t get it.
Aspects of both liberal and conservative viewpoints have a lot to offer. This black and white viewpoint existing in the states limits your options and that makes you vulnerable.
Good job.
Luckily, while corrupt, politicians aren’t quite as stupid as the cheerleading factions of either side. They rarely speak the truth, but they are generally aware of it, while the cheerleaders take what they say as gospel.
Sad fools.
[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
So when they kill innocent people, we then kill more innocent people as payback? Sounds like terrorists vs. terrorists to me.[/quote]
spoken like one who truly has no clue.
so - if the terrorists came and wiped out Toronto what would you suggest we do ? Reason with them? - sit down and dialogue with them? Put your head between their legs and hope the boogie men go away?
the platitudes I am quoting from you sound nice and moral, but come on man, face reality – these assholes leave us no choice.
[quote]Wreckless wrote:
N-Korea is rushing for the bomb, and now so is Iran.
ONE HELL OF A JOB BUSHIE ! ! ![/quote]
And N=Korea and Iran weren’t rushing for the bomb before Bush?
Funny how Bush gets blamed for EVERYTHING.
Look Bush is a fuck up - but if you’re going to tool on him at least get your facts straight.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Ahahahahahaha.
Don’t look now, but the real player for world domination is going to be China, the Middle East doesn’t hold a candle to them.[/quote]
actually, I’ll dispute that… but that’s a whole other thread. The Arabs are far more dangerous than the Chinese - the Chinese would get their clocks cleaned in a conventional war against the US - they know this that’s why they don’t dare touch Taiwan.
the only thing scary about the Chinese is that it would be impossible to hold their country, well that and their economic clout.
I gotta say that the Arabs are still more dangerous - fanatical religious beliefs tend to do that to people.
[quote]
It’s sad that you think “libs” don’t get it.[/quote]
um, they don’t. How else to explain their cries to get out of Iraq right now? How fucking stupid would that be?
[quote]
Aspects of both liberal and conservative viewpoints have a lot to offer. This black and white viewpoint existing in the states limits your options and that makes you vulnerable.[/quote]
this must be more of that ‘nuance’ bullshit that John Kerry kept talking about. The reality is that our options are limited.
Not because of our ‘black and white’ viewpoint, but because we are dealing with a fanatical opponent who will stop at nothing (please read those 5 words over and over again) to destroy our civilization. These people cannot be reasoned with, period. What other nuance do you need?
[quote]
Good job.[/quote]
Let me guess, condescending left-wing sarcasm?
[quote]
Luckily, while corrupt, politicians aren’t quite as stupid as the cheerleading factions of either side. They rarely speak the truth, but they are generally aware of it, while the cheerleaders take what they say as gospel.[/quote]
some more…
[quote]
Sad fools.[/quote]
and one more for good measure.
[quote]vroom wrote:
It may be possible to cut the head off of the snake in Iran.
If ever there was a case for attempted surgical strikes to throw the government into disarray, so that alternate factions could organize and compete for control, Iran is the textbook for it.
They won’t get any more fanatical, and a civil war is better than an apocalyptic war between Middle East and West.
Iran is the fanatic country that Iraq never was… George should have kept his powder dry. Now he has no credibility and a real problem on his hands.
Short sighted fool.[/quote]
Taking out Hussein was the right thing to do. Bush just fucked up the occupation, actually Bush and his cronies really, really fucked up the occupation.
I can’t believe people still argue that leaving Saddam in power was a viable option given all the fucked up, barbaric shit that was going on in that country.
It’s a heads you lose, tails you lose kind of situation because people are still dying - in the end the losers are the same, those poor Iraqis - the only difference is that now at least they have a semblance of hope. That counts for a lot in my book.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Headhunter,
Just because Clinton didn’t invade nations, I don’t think it is really fair to claim he was weak on terror.
Things were different before 9/11, just about everyone realizes that.
Try to be a little reasonable.[/quote]
Then the same should be extended to Bush. He was in office all of 8 months before 9/11. Now everyone on the left side of the aisle has blamed him for 9/11.
Where does the blame lie? The myopic want to blame the man in charge. That’s hardly being reasonable, don’t you think?
It works both ways.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
vroom wrote:
Headhunter,
Just because Clinton didn’t invade nations, I don’t think it is really fair to claim he was weak on terror.
Things were different before 9/11, just about everyone realizes that.
Try to be a little reasonable.
Then the same should be extended to Bush. He was in office all of 8 months before 9/11. Now everyone on the left side of the aisle has blamed him for 9/11.
Where does the blame lie? The myopic want to blame the man in charge. That’s hardly being reasonable, don’t you think?
It works both ways. [/quote]
I will not acknowledge any comment of "Rainjack"s until he immediately re-establishes the Johnny Bravo icon. This is an imposter Rainjack who must not be taken seriously.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I will not acknowledge any comment of "Rainjack"s until he immediately re-establishes the Johnny Bravo icon. This is an imposter Rainjack who must not be taken seriously.[/quote]
People said the same thing when I changed from Hank Hill to Napolean Dynamite. They said it again when I went from ND to Johnny Bravo. You’ll get used to this one as well, and gripe about it when a change is in the offing.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Conservatives attack libs because you don’t understand the unique position of this country. Do you honestly think we’d have anywhere near the peace in the world we have if the USA wasn’t the ‘big dog in the house’? The Islamic countries want to push us out of this position and dictate terms. They want to resurrect the Ottoman Empire. They will use terrorism, bio weapons, nukes, you name it – and frankly, we conservatives don’t want to live in a world dominated by Sharia Law.
This is a war to the death and the winner dominates the globe for the forseeable future. Our children will either salute our flag or pray facing Mecca 5 times/day. Pick one. I choose the first.
Ahahahahahaha.
Don’t look now, but the real player for world domination is going to be China, the Middle East doesn’t hold a candle to them.
It’s sad that you think “libs” don’t get it.
Aspects of both liberal and conservative viewpoints have a lot to offer. This black and white viewpoint existing in the states limits your options and that makes you vulnerable.
Good job.
Luckily, while corrupt, politicians aren’t quite as stupid as the cheerleading factions of either side. They rarely speak the truth, but they are generally aware of it, while the cheerleaders take what they say as gospel.
Sad fools.[/quote]
That’s the 3rd time you’ve ended a post with the word ‘fool(s)’. “Judge not, lest ye be judged.”
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
vroom wrote:
Headhunter,
Just because Clinton didn’t invade nations, I don’t think it is really fair to claim he was weak on terror.
Things were different before 9/11, just about everyone realizes that.
Try to be a little reasonable.
Then the same should be extended to Bush. He was in office all of 8 months before 9/11. Now everyone on the left side of the aisle has blamed him for 9/11.
Where does the blame lie? The myopic want to blame the man in charge. That’s hardly being reasonable, don’t you think?
It works both ways.
I will not acknowledge any comment of "Rainjack"s until he immediately re-establishes the Johnny Bravo icon. This is an imposter Rainjack who must not be taken seriously.[/quote]
I agree – the Johnny Bravo icon was the best. And the show was funny as hell; used to watch it with my boys.
[quote]OARSMAN wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
So when they kill innocent people, we then kill more innocent people as payback? Sounds like terrorists vs. terrorists to me.
spoken like one who truly has no clue.
so - if the terrorists came and wiped out Toronto what would you suggest we do ? Reason with them? - sit down and dialogue with them? Put your head between their legs and hope the boogie men go away?
the platitudes I am quoting from you sound nice and moral, but come on man, face reality – these assholes leave us no choice.
[/quote]
I have no clue? Buddy you’re the one that whose brain seems to have completely ceased to function. They’re already killing innocent civilians from THEIR OWN COUNTRY. So your plan is to say “Oh yeah, well if you keep killing your own civilians, we’re going to kill more of them!”
Good thinking, that will solve all our problems!
I’m for the eradication of radical Islam as much as the rest of you, but carpet bombing countries that have already been victimized by these fanatics is not the solution.
[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
OARSMAN wrote:
CaptainLogic wrote:
So when they kill innocent people, we then kill more innocent people as payback? Sounds like terrorists vs. terrorists to me.
spoken like one who truly has no clue.
so - if the terrorists came and wiped out Toronto what would you suggest we do ? Reason with them? - sit down and dialogue with them? Put your head between their legs and hope the boogie men go away?
the platitudes I am quoting from you sound nice and moral, but come on man, face reality – these assholes leave us no choice. [/quote]
[quote]CaptainLogic:
I have no clue? Buddy you’re the one that whose brain seems to have completely ceased to function. They’re already killing innocent civilians from THEIR OWN COUNTRY. [/quote]
Last I checked most of the “insurgents” (fuck that, they’re scumbag terrorists) are NOT Iraqis. The average Iraqi is caught in the middle now. They have been so accustomed to getting their shit kicked in by Saddam and his goon squads that it has taken their appetite to fight back. However, this is not true for all Iraqis - some are taking up arms against these assholes in an attempt to take back their country. No one said freedom comes cheap.
(now let the left-wing sarcastic flaming of how Iraq is nothing but an American imperial outpost, begin.)
[quote]
We’re going to threaten them by going “Oh yeah, well if you keep killing you’re own innocent civilians, we’re going to kill more of them!”??[/quote]
huh? we are not the ones taking the war to the streets, they are. It’s unfortunate that innocents die in these battles, but that’s the reality of war. Your sense of perspective is shocking - please go back and look at the numbers of civilian casualties in the previous two world wars, and then come talk to me about wide-scale slaughter.
[quote]
Good thinking, that will solve all our problem!![/quote]
blather…blather… blather… you still haven’t answered my original question… a terrorist cell just wiped out Toronto - what do you do?