What are you disagreeing with?
Putting up a wall? Not going after everyone who is already here? The idea that I’m not really an ultra-liberal? All of the above?
Can I really make an entire post with nothing but questions?
[quote]vroom wrote:
Okay, yet another minor proof I’m not the ultra-liberal people think I am.
While it is true that the US is dependent on illegal workers at the current time, it is similar to an addiction. There may be pain and suffering during withdrawal, but it will be better for you in the long run to get through it.
Perhaps such economic pain will force you to develop ways to manage the border effectively and to manage immigration effectively. You probably need a way to allow legal migration to take pace at a rate somewhat similar to that of illegal migration.
Whatever the case, the US is not duty bound to offer a free ride to everyone that can find their way into the country. Take appropriate steps to secure the border, if that means a wall so be it, and then take appropriate steps to welcome and integrate all of your past immigrants, legal or otherwise, before it is too late.[/quote]
I just disagree that illeagal workers are like a pleasurable drug but provide nothing in substance. Industries like landscaping construction and meat-processing/packing, or agriculture or textiles will never be completely mechanized, beacuse some jobs just can’t be done with machines. I think they provide an actual benefit to american consumers b/c they bring down prices in these industries. I’ve cited this before and i will again for this discussion, if we could magically get rid of all the illeagals in the construction industry then the construction companies would have to hire white people at a premium. This would drive up housing prices mabey by 15 or 20%. This would kill america’s housing market which has been reported by economists as one of the major forces holding it up, b/c consumer spending is becoming more and more important but home sales will always be a big part of this. So if you hurt home sales you hurt the economy. Not to mention that they make US agriculture esp fruit , more competitive so its an actual industry that we don’t have to give up to another nation , like steel has done for us. Also , i beleive that America benefits from immigrants because these are the brightest and most couragous of their nationalities. They are risking a large bit by coming to a foreign place and they had better be good or they will go nowhere.
Anyway how did that canadian event go, where the canadian government was in danger of shutting down temporarily? im sure y’all got it settled up there that has happened to us before to given a unexpectedly big budget arguement.
[quote]vroom wrote:
While it is true that the US is dependent on illegal workers at the current time, it is similar to an addiction. There may be pain and suffering during withdrawal, but it will be better for you in the long run to get through it.[/quote]
I’ll second that.
Illegal immigration has to stop, period.
We do need immigrants (especially highly qualified ones), so we need to make it easier for them to come into this country – PERMANENTLY, no guest-worker crap – and keep their income INSIDE this country, rather than continuing to bleed dollars like we are now.
We need to get back to the situation we had in the early 20th century, were we attracted good people that were coming to stay, and to have their families follow them ASAP. Not send the money “back home”. If you come here, THIS is your home. Invest “in it”, spend money “in it”, but for crying out loud don’t send the money somewhere else.
If that means Mexico’s economy becomes worse, so be it – they will need to learn it the hard way. The fact that the Mexican government is against stopping illegal immigration and seem to think we owe them something is simply ridiculous. That is the definition of parasitic behavior, and it’s pretty serious when the Government of a country feels entitled to be a parasite of another country. They need a bit of tough love for a change, and stop being a leech.
Having said that, walls are not the solution. We need to invest time, money and people in catching illegals, with such overwhelming effectiveness that the people south of the border will know, for a fact, that they will get caught if they cross the border, within a very short period of time, possibly even before they get their first paycheck and have the chance to send it “home”.
And getting caught should mean jail time, preferably somewhere in Alaska or even Siberia (seems we can easily rent prison space outside the US these days). If we send them back “home” they’ll just try again… and again, and again, until they find some hole in the system. The fact that they actually have a lot to lose when (not “if” – WHEN) they get caught will give them a lot more to think about.
It will be expensive in the short term, but worth it in the long term. Just the amount of money that will stay inside the US rather than bleed out will make up for it – quickly.
[quote]hspder wrote:
Illegal immigration has to stop, period.
We do need immigrants (especially highly qualified ones), so we need to make it easier for them to come into this country – PERMANENTLY, no guest-worker crap – and keep their income INSIDE this country, rather than continuing to bleed dollars like we are now. [/quote]
I … uh … agree with … uh … hspder, for the most part. (Is this possible?)
The only difference is the permanently thing. I don’t mind immigrants becoming American citizens, and do want this to happen, but would like people to work for that chance. To prove themselves first.
They commit crimes instead of being good citizens, bye bye Pedro. (I know a Pedro.)
The truth is that many just want the work, not the citizenship. A lot of the money people make is sent back to Mexico.
[quote]We need to get back to the situation we had in the early 20th century, were we attracted good people that were coming to stay, and to have their families follow them ASAP. Not send the money “back home”. If you come here, THIS is your home. Invest “in it”, spend money “in it”, but for crying out loud don’t send the money somewhere else.
If that means Mexico’s economy becomes worse, so be it – they will need to learn it the hard way. The fact that the Mexican government is against stopping illegal immigration and seem to think we owe them something is simply ridiculous. That is the definition of parasitic behavior, and it’s pretty serious when the Government of a country feels entitled to be a parasite of another country. They need a bit of tough love for a change, and stop being a leech. [/quote]
Like the idea, but I doubt too many Mexicans are going to bring their whole family here. Mexico’s biggest income stream is from Mexicans sending money back to Mexico. (Big reason Fox is against this.)
[quote]Having said that, walls are not the solution. We need to invest time, money and people in catching illegals, with such overwhelming effectiveness that the people south of the border will know, for a fact, that they will get caught if they cross the border, within a very short period of time, possibly even before they get their first paycheck and have the chance to send it “home”.
And getting caught should mean jail time, preferably somewhere in Alaska or even Siberia (seems we can easily rent prison space outside the US these days). If we send them back “home” they’ll just try again… and again, and again, until they find some hole in the system. The fact that they actually have a lot to lose when (not “if” – WHEN) they get caught will give them a lot more to think about.
It will be expensive in the short term, but worth it in the long term. Just the amount of money that will stay inside the US rather than bleed out will make up for it – quickly.
[/quote]
I can agree with this. Though I personally don’t see a problem with strategically placed fences to force people into smaller areas, but overwhelming forces, and technology to direct our people to them would work, with our without fences.
One of the ways they get across is because they actually time a large number of groups to come over at the same time. They expect some to get caught, but because of the large numbers, most actually will get through just because they are overwhelming the border guards.
As far as economies of America and Mexico, I am not worried. Mexico needs to eliminate their corruption. And Americans who complain that there are not enough jobs for people here, then say we need these illegals to cover the jobs nobody wants does not see the irony.
Another idea is to eliminate the benefits. The whole idea that you are not allowed to cross, yet if you do, you get free college, free healthcare, and other benefits. Ridiculous. Treat them like humans, not inferior to us, but not superior to us either.
Bigdon,
I’m not saying they are providing nothing of substance. The whole reason the US is addicted is because of what is provided. Cheap labor… any business will be looking for a hit!
[quote]The Mage wrote:
hspder wrote:
We do need immigrants (especially highly qualified ones), so we need to make it easier for them to come into this country – PERMANENTLY, no guest-worker crap – and keep their income INSIDE this country, rather than continuing to bleed dollars like we are now.
The only difference is the permanently thing. I don’t mind immigrants becoming American citizens, and do want this to happen, but would like people to work for that chance. To prove themselves first.
[/quote]
I said “easier”, not “automatic”. Of course you’d still have to have a “probationary” period of several years, much like now.
The problem currently is that the criteria for obtaining permanent residency status are asinine, unfair and even somewhat random. We need to change that, to something that actually makes sound economic and social sense.
The silly thing is that our position seems to be the same as the overwhelming majority of Americans, on both sides of the fence. Only xenophobic fringe groups seem to disagree. However, it also seems that once again both Congress and the current Administration have forgotten the meaning of the word “Democracy”.
I completely agree with this, though I’m not convinced a wall would be useless – it would definitely need to be paired with a very much increased patrol presence on the border to be effective.
LOL Let’s just make Mexico our 52nd state! (Sorry Pedro, Canada has dibs on 51)
Problem… solved. 
I don’t want a fvcked up country to be a state. Sorry. I hate violence, corruption, stupid governments ect. Mexico is all of these and worse than we have ever been. I love the mexican people i just dont want the problems that their country is experiencing. So mexicans if you are reading this, and want to come over and work, just come on over i’ll treat you to a shot of tequila.
[quote]thabigdon24 wrote:
I don’t want a fvcked up country to be a state. Sorry. I hate violence, corruption, stupid governments ect. Mexico is all of these and worse than we have ever been.[/quote]
Mexico has it problems, true. Doesn’t mean that it always has to be that way. It’s not like we couldn’t handle having Mexico as a part of the US infrastructure-wise. Look at California. 4th largest economy in the world. And that’s just a decent-sized chunk of the US. Would it pay off to have a Mexican 52nd state?
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/mx.html
They just hit the one trillion dollar sized economy in 2004. That’s not bad. They have good natural resources, but need fresh water and infrastructure upgrades. That’s what the US is good at, man! As long as Mexicans aren’t going to suicide-bomb us, I think we can work something out.
This is win-win, baby!
Mexico as the next state. I actually see this as a possible future, but nothing for quite a while.
Mexico has terrible corruption, and is a very dangerous place, especially for gringos. For example, one news show had videotape of the same person voting 7 times. Corruption is throughout the infrastructure. And the corrupt people do not want change because they believe they would lose their kickbacks.
If the corruption were ever rooted out, their economy would boom. (They would have a percentage of growth at least double the US for a good decade.) Unfortunately few people there are focused on eliminating that corruption.
There was hope Fox would have brought more reform then he has. If he was more intelligent he would have negotiated a guest worker program with the US instead trying to support the illegal border crossing. He could have reduced the number of people dying in the trek across the border, and legitimized millions of migrant workers to the benefit of the Mexican people.
I see Puerto Rico becoming a state before Mexico. And I doubt Canada, but if it were, way after Mexico.
Mabey lothorio is right , that it would be a good idea based on adding size to what would then be the US. Something also to look at would be history of this kind of thing happening. At Western Germany , East Germany, after a few decades of communism east germany was bad news economically, and im sure that the USSR bled them to feed russia. Its taken a lot of $$$ effort and both areas are still frustrated that east germany isn’t catching up as fast as it could
Build the damned wall, quick! Before anymore get through! Are you people stupid? They are “illegal aliens”, meaning they don’t belong here. They take jobs away from americans. What about the high school kid that needs a job to have some extra spending money.
Or the kid putting himself through school? Make programs where people on welfare or are getting some kind of assistance have to do these jobs for little pay in lieu of getting assistance as a way to get them started.
Things will suck for awhile, but will get better over time. We need to do something to preserve the sanctity of this country. Can’t keep it american if americans are not doing the work.
The governor of Arizona was quoted as saying “You show me a 50-foot wall and I’ll show you a 51-foot ladder at the border. That’s the way the border works.”
Good point. How about we throw in razor wire on top of the border fence and put gun turrets every 50 feet? That would handle the problem.
–from the Neil Boortz website
I’m not opposed to immigrants, but like any visitor, you had damn sure better knock at the front door, not try sneaking in the back.
Its not like we don’t have a way for them to come to this country legally, but they insist on violating our laws by entering illegally, and such blatant disrespect should not be tolerated.
We have GOT to teach these people that we will not be run over and pushed around and allow our laws, our borders to be disrespected. If a bullet is the only way someone will learn that lesson, so be it.
The next one that comes up behind him and sees the body will think twice.
This facist measure called “The Wall”, where have we seen this? I know I have.
Think the guettos, think east and west germany, think china.
Illegal aliens? That’s a pretty harsh term for someone who works twice as much for half the money he gets paid, a pretty harsh term for someone trying to feed his family, not buy him a sports car but feed his children, and I certainly believe that it is a hash term for a fellow human.
I am mexican.
I’ve been in the US, several times, fortunatly I’ve been in places like Disneyland and Universal Theme Park instead of a constructing site and I have my VISA(Unlimited, well 10 years an automatical reneuval).
I love your country, I wish mine was half like yours and some of the best people I’ve ever met are americans.
I have however many family in the US trying to make a living, just a couple of weeks ago my uncle and my aunt went there, they left their two children behind in the hopes of sending money. they are 18 and 11 years old.
If you make that wall, only god knows when will they see their parents again.
If you make that wall, only god know how many families will be destroyed, it will be in the hundreds of thousands.
I am not asking for your pitty, for your simpathy, let’s talk business.
California is the 4th economy in the world, and we have a lot to say about that, how about the almost free labor we give you? are you going to restore a car for 50 dollars? who’s going to support your construction superavit?
In anyway, you are better off with us and we are better of with you.
If you do this, Mexicans aren’t just going to stand put, they are going to take measures about it, and you will lose, and we will lose.
I see someone mentioned putting a bullet in one so the next one thinks twice, I won’t even dignify that comment with a reply but please think about that for one second, and then decide.
I hope we can find a way to coexist in a mutual help atmosphere, my girlfriend is an American, from Columbus and here we make it work every day, and it’s great.
If not, I’'ll be seeing you next year in PhD in business I’ll be doing Berkeley, maybe I’ll make it through the wall.
Yours truly.
Eng Hector Ulises Carrillo Ramirez
Illegal alien is a term used to describe a person that is in the U.S. illegally. The term is kinda like butt plug. i t doesn;t really need to be explained if you just think about it long enough.
It is none of my concern how many hundreds of thousands of families will be destroyed because we finally got smart enough to stop the bleeding by erecting a 50 foot high by 6 feet thick concrete barrier to stop drug smugglers from invading.
[quote]hspder wrote:
And getting caught should mean jail time, preferably somewhere in Alaska or even Siberia (seems we can easily rent prison space outside the US these days). If we send them back “home” they’ll just try again… and again, and again, until they find some hole in the system. The fact that they actually have a lot to lose when (not “if” – WHEN) they get caught will give them a lot more to think about.
[/quote]
the jail time would be a good idea, if it weren’t for the fact that they would have a higher standard of living in prison than would’ve had in Mexico. prison time wouldn’t dissuade any of them, unfortunately.
[quote]kristopherts wrote:
We have GOT to teach these people that we will not be run over and pushed around and allow our laws, our borders to be disrespected. If a bullet is the only way someone will learn that lesson, so be it.
The next one that comes up behind him and sees the body will think twice.[/quote]
This is a weak attitude. If these were suicide bombing insurgents streaming across the border to maim and kill, then I might tend to agree with you. However, we are talking about folks who are trying to make a living.
You don’t shoot people like that. You find out if they are hardworking and trustworthy, and then you invite them to stay and become an American. These folks have a fucked up process to go through to “come in the front door”. I don’t blame some of them for trying a shortcut. Have you been to Mexico? Don’t be so quick to judge others. You just might be jumping a fence to get over here yourself, if things were different.
Annex Mexico! hehehe
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Illegal alien is a term used to describe a person that is in the U.S. illegally. The term is kinda like butt plug. i t doesn;t really need to be explained if you just think about it long enough.
It is none of my concern how many hundreds of thousands of families will be destroyed because we finally got smart enough to stop the bleeding by erecting a 50 foot high by 6 feet thick concrete barrier to stop drug smugglers from invading.
[/quote]
I know what Ilegal alien stands for, I just don’t think it’s an appropiate term.
And I am pretty sure you don’t care about our families, after all I don’t care form Guatemalian families either.
I just think it’s funny that you actually believe that US drug abuse problem is to be solved outside the US.
I have a suggestion, stop being the first consumer of illegal drugs and pretty soon they’ll stop sending them to you.
And unless you come up with an 30,000 feet wall, the drugs will still pass through the border.
[quote]hectorulises wrote:
This facist measure called “The Wall”, where have we seen this? I know I have.
Think the guettos, think east and west germany, think china…[/quote]
The difference is those walls were to keep people in totalitarian states, not to keep people out seeking a better way of life.
We need to get control of the illegal immigrant problem. The Wall will not do that. It is an empty gesture.
We need to expand the number of legal immigrants and deport the new illegals. We need an amnesty program for the productive people that are here.
We need to punish those that undercut and cheat our economy by hiring illegals.
We need to be prepared for higher costs in certain areas.
The fix is likely a bitter pill to swallow but the Wall is all image, no substance.