The Tren/Progesterone/Prolactin Thread

Pharma
21

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
This does not happen with actual trenbolone.

One knows it is actual trenbolone when made from Finaplix. Or if having formal chemical analysis of any other source. Lacking either of these there is no knowing.

Sorry about your “trusted source.”

As for the pharmacological claims you posted: they are assertions with so far as I know absolutely zero basis from the scientific literature.

Trenbolone is very expensive raw material (though apparently Hoechst Roussel, makers of Finaplix, can do it economically enough) thus yielding great profit temptation in cutting or replacing entirely with other steroids, and these problems attributed to trenbolone did not occur till people started buying powders from “trusted sources” or preparations from UG labs.

THAT is the cause.

Another thing you could look at is that trenbolone alone is a poor cycle. Sounds like your results alone indicate that what you had was either not straight trenbolone or was not trenbolone at all.

As for why you ran an AI with a non-aromatizing steroid (supposedly) and natural T production shut down and therefore almost no potential source for estrogen in the blood, I cannot say. This whole thing was error from the beginning in more than one regard.

I’m sorry about your misfortune, gyno is awful, but you haven’t, IMO, attributed the cause correctly.[/quote]

Come on, Bill, cut me some slack here. Now you are the one making assumptions.

My cycle was not tren-only, and I nowhere stated that it was.

In addition to all of the other sides I mentioned before, the tren, when brewed, was a much darker amber color than the other two powders I brewed along with it, test prop and masteron prop.

I brewed number of vials, 2 of which crashed. After baking these crashed vials, the color became yet darker, which would, once again, indicate trenbolone (or, yeah, at least the presence of it). There comes a point where we come so close to the edge of Occam’s Razor that we are in danger of cutting ourselves.

If it wasn’t tren I was using, and I was using a proper AI (and it was, as I can also verify through its effect), then I would love to hear some suggestions as to just what in the hell it was I was taking that might cause such effects,

Because I’d like to figure out what to do to get all of that crazy strength and fat-loss without the gyno that whatever “it” is directly or indirectly induced.

For the record, here is a rough outline of my cycle:

W1-10 Test prop 110mg/ED
W1-10 Mast prop 80mg/ED
W2-7 Tren ace 80mg/ED

AI was letrozole originally started around .625mg/EOD, later bumped up to ED, and around week 7 when I developed the lump, up to 2.5mg ED, to little avail and much distress.

I’m not here to call anybody a liar or a fool, I just want to enjoy all of the benefits of whatever amber-colored, cardio-killing, insomnia-inducing compound it was I was taking without the boobies or the lactation (which I may have mentioned in the other thread was also present).

22

My post was made directly after I read Bill’s first response. Still haven’t gotten to the end, but I would like to hear from anyone who feels they may have experienced “tren-gyno” while using only tren brewed from Finaplix pellets. This is a distinction I have never heard made before.

EDIT: Looks like this is getting talked about, too.

23

One more post to say that I see you conjectured as to what you thought might be in the powder.

I should just read the whole thread before posting, eh :wink:

24

Cortes,

Would the sides and effects you experienced be consistent with NPP?

25

I’ve never tried NPP, but I’m pretty sure the NPP experience is different enough from the trenbolone experience. Anybody reading the sides and evidence I have already posted should have a pretty good idea of which drug they are usually associated with.

26

Absolutely. I was just wondering if it could have possibly been a mix of Tren and NPP?

You definitely got tren sides in the night sweats and reduced cardio. According to BR you also got NPP sides.

27

More precisely, I don’t know that it was NPP. But rather expect it was some non-trenbolone substance.

I do know that various places and persons that claim that references exist showing trenbolone is a progestin and/or that trenbolone increases prolactin are misinterprations, or are assertions that don’t seem to have anything behind them, and are contradictory to studies that do exist.

I know that no one who has consulted with me on their steroid cycles and was definitely using genuine trenbolone ever suffered this problem. That doesn’t prove it could never happen to anyone but is reason for me to doubt it, and certainly reason to be sure it is at least not common.

Particularly given that black market trenbolone is absolutely notorious for frequently being counterfeit.

And for all I know, third-hand “bro knowledge” about someone who definitely used pellets and got gyno may be missing the information of what else was taken, or maybe the pellets were Finaplix-S. (Considering all the mistakes that are made by steroid users, including many long time users, it seems very unlikely to me that no one has ever mistakenly bought S instead of H.)

A final minor point: Trenbolone has been around a long time, in the form of Parabolan and Finaject prior to the days of common counterfeiting. Why is this problem new to the age of frequent counterfeiting and non-pharmaceutical/non-veterinary sources of trenbolone, then?

Should have been happening all along if trenbolone were the culprit. Not the major point, but a minor one that may connect for someone.

The above is the best I can summarize it, I think.

28

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
More precisely, I don’t know that it was NPP. But rather expect it was some non-trenbolone substance.

I do know that various places and persons that claim that references exist showing trenbolone are a progestin and/or that trenbolone increases prolactin are misinterprations, or are assertions that don’t seem to have anything behind them, and are contradictory to studies that do exist.

I know that no one who has consulted with me on their steroid cycles and was definitely using genuine trenbolone ever suffered this problem. That doesn’t prove it could never happen to anyone but is reason for me to doubt it, and certainly reason to be sure it is at least not common.

Particularly given that black market trenbolone is absolutely notorious for frequently being counterfeit.

And for all I know, third-hand “bro knowledge” about someone who definitely used pellets and got gyno may be missing the information of what else was taken, or maybe the pellets were Finaplix-S. (Considering all the mistakes that are made by steroid users, including many long time users, it seems very unlikely to me that no one has ever mistakenly bought S instead of H.)

A final minor point: Trenbolone has been around a long time, in the form of Parabolan and Finaject prior to the days of common counterfeiting. Why is this problem new to the age of frequent counterfeiting and non-pharmaceutical/non-veterinary sources of trenbolone, then?

Should have been happening all along if trenbolone were the culprit. Not the major point, but a minor one that may connect for someone.

The above is the best I can summarize it, I think.
[/quote]

Great thread and discussion.

29

Not to hijack, but I have a question about tren. What exactly does “good nutrient partitioning” mean?

What does that do for you? Allow you to eat way over maintenance and stay lean? I hope this isn’t a dumb question haha

30

If “steroid.com” is to be trusted Tren Ace melting point is around 183-186C so if you have any TA powder around from that same source, you could test it via that? NPP has a boiling point of around 120, as stated by the same source.

31

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Not to hijack, but I have a question about tren. What exactly does “good nutrient partitioning” mean?

What does that do for you? Allow you to eat way over maintenance and stay lean? I hope this isn’t a dumb question haha[/quote]

In the veterinary literature it means that the growing animals, on same feed protocol, were leaner when given the agent being described as exhibiting good nutrient partitioning. Let’s assume same or greater bodyweight; I don’t know how things would be figured if leaner but also smaller.

In bodybuilding the intended meaning is that this would apply in the same manner in bodybuilding; and that when cutting, fat cells would receive less nutrients and muscle moreso than without the agent being taken.

Thus metabolic rate might be greater for same workload and diet, and/or less muscle might be burned, and fat might be lost from adipose tissue faster.

32

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
waylanderxx wrote:
Not to hijack, but I have a question about tren. What exactly does “good nutrient partitioning” mean?

What does that do for you? Allow you to eat way over maintenance and stay lean? I hope this isn’t a dumb question haha

In the veterinary literature it means that the growing animals, on same feed protocol, were leaner when given the agent being described as exhibiting good nutrient partitioning.

In bodybuilding the intended meaning is that this would apply in the same manner in bodybuilding; and that when cutting, fat cells would receive less nutrients and muscle moreso than without the agent being taken.

Thus metabolic rate might be greater for same workload and diet, and/or less muscle might be burned, and fat might be lost from adipose tissue faster.
[/quote]

great thanks.

33

[quote]egnatiosj wrote:
If “steroid.com” is to be trusted Tren Ace melting point is around 183-186C so if you have any TA powder around from that same source, you could test it via that? NPP has a boiling point of around 120, as stated by the same source. [/quote]

Actually, I may just have a friend who has a friend who has access to a lab and I’m about to receive a good amount of what ostensibly is the same product. I will not hesitate to have this tested and post back here with the results.

I would also like to hear Bill weigh in on what he thinks of the viability of the melting point method of testing.

What would happen if tren powder is actually cut with NPP? Some of it is going to start melting first?

34

You’d start seeing partial melting at a lower temperature than for the pure compound. If the acetate, the Merck gives the mp as 97-98 C (207 to 208 F.)

I don’t have a mp for the enanthate. One of the Chinese vendors may have a data sheet posted on the web that includes it.

NPP has a reported melting point of 95-96 C.

So it would be hard or impossible to distinguish pure NPP powder from pure TA powder by melting point. However a mixture would melt a few degrees early.

Colorwise, if no dye were added to the NPP it should I think be visibly somewhat different, as the parent trenbolone steroid structure is pretty strongly yellow, which the ester does not change.

Nandrolone decanoate powder in practice can be somewhat yellow though. The same should be true of the phenylpropionate. But I would think not as yellow, judging from just a couple of seen samples of the decanoate, but that is not enough basis to be sure of the range of yellowness that might be the case for either it or the phenylpropionate.

35

My tren powder was also yellow. But then, as you say, colorings could well be added to mimic real trenbolone.

I don’t put anything past the Chinese.

36

Or, powder that was say 50% trenbolone and 50% some unknown product, or other such mixture with reasonable amount of trenbolone ester, could also be still-quite yellow without even any dye being added.

37

Bill, thanks this nice ‘package’.

“”"
“bro knowledge” says so, and there’s a consensus on bro-boards
“”"

In a situation like this, we also need to know if hexarelin has been used. It causes prolactin release by a direct effect on the pituitary. Dopamine would then be expected to drop creating which has its own effects. Smaller amounts of hexarelin do not create significant increases in dopamine, but “use in moderation” is probably not on the table.

38

Interesting possibility I had not thought of!

39

Bill, thanks this nice ‘package’.

“”"
“bro knowledge” says so, and there’s a consensus on bro-boards
“”"

In a situation like this, we also need to know if hexarelin has been used. It causes prolactin release by a direct effect on the pituitary. Dopamine would then be expected to drop creating which has its own effects. Smaller amounts of hexarelin do not create significant increases in dopamine, but “use in moderation” is probably not on the table.

40

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
the Merck gives the mp as 97-98 C (207 to 208 F.)

NPP has a reported melting point of 95-96 C.
[/quote]

lol "steroid.com was just a tad off.