Ok OK OK enough… you believe whatever you want, I will stop trying to apply logic to illogical things an old book claims. The point I am trying to make is that even if you believe it there is no possible way that by citing the bible you can proove it. It is just not possible. The bible is a book, A book who was written by the hands of men. In an ancient language no less. And to say that this book can somehow tell the story of god and everything just because a religion was formed after it is illogical.
Like I said before you are free to believe this is really how things are, but I am free to disbelieve it… especially when I have firsthand private knowledge that it is in fact not how things are. I cannot prove to you that what I believe is the truth anymore than you can prove yours to me. Allthough I can show you how to find out for yourself… it is clear you really don’t care about the truth and are actually firmly set in your beliefs. I am only proposing alternatives to what you believe and you state that BECAUSE you believe them to be true that in fact they are… again you have no proof… nor do I. God is not measurable through any mechanical means we have and only by connecting through our own selves can we prove to ourselves that he (it) exists and what it’s intentions are.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Ok OK OK enough… you believe whatever you want, I will stop trying to apply logic to illogical things an old book claims. The point I am trying to make is that even if you believe it there is no possible way that by citing the bible you can proove it. It is just not possible. The bible is a book, A book who was written by the hands of men. In an ancient language no less. And to say that this book can somehow tell the story of god and everything just because a religion was formed after it is illogical.
[/quote]
That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I have shown in another thread it is possible that the Bible is right on many things.
No one has said you can’t
Well I guess that depends on if you view history as proof.
That is not true. I am seeking. I just have not found enough to convince me other wise. I have moments of doubts. I actually think of them as me being critical of my belief system. I will say this if the Bible is wrong than I will be an atheist. After all I would not cost myself anthing. No other religion really sends people to Hell.
No I have proof that certain acts described in the Bible did happen. I may not have proof of all the miracles, but there is actually history behind alot of what I believe. It is funny because the same arguments used against Christianity back then are still used today.
I Never said He was measurable. Instead this whole discussions is about how He is unmeasurable.
“That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I have shown in another thread it is possible that the Bible is right on many things.”
I can write a fictional book that might still be right on many things. I might even claim this book was written by god through my hand? Does this mean you will believe my book? Actually there is a guy who claims this is what happend to him… Neal Donald Walsch look him up and read his stuff. You might be surprised and if you are truly searching for truth then you would be doing an injustice to yourself to not read materials of this nature. Do I beleive him… like the bible, I believe he can have things right but not be 100% accurate. I guess we’ll see.
And to your other point about history being proof? Ha excuse me while I laugh… see I was a history major in college for a time and one of the things we learned was that history accounts are merely interpretations of the events of the past. No human being can remember the detail of an event 100% without putting thier own lense on it. Therefore unless they had floating digital video recorders to follow jesus around and record his every move and word… I don’t think i’ll take that as proof of anything. Sure I believe there probably was a guy like jesus maybe even named jesus. Gahndi was a lot like jesus too. Maybe if there weren’t so many stinking cameras following him he would have preformed some miracles to eh?
There is a pink elephant sitting outside your window right now… if you think i’m kidding go look…
[quote]Vegita wrote:
“That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. I have shown in another thread it is possible that the Bible is right on many things.”
I can write a fictional book that might still be right on many things. I might even claim this book was written by god through my hand? Does this mean you will believe my book? Actually there is a guy who claims this is what happend to him… Neal Donald Walsch look him up and read his stuff. You might be surprised and if you are truly searching for truth then you would be doing an injustice to yourself to not read materials of this nature. Do I beleive him… like the bible, I believe he can have things right but not be 100% accurate. I guess we’ll see.
And to your other point about history being proof? Ha excuse me while I laugh… see I was a history major in college for a time and one of the things we learned was that history accounts are merely interpretations of the events of the past. No human being can remember the detail of an event 100% without putting thier own lense on it. Therefore unless they had floating digital video recorders to follow jesus around and record his every move and word… I don’t think i’ll take that as proof of anything. Sure I believe there probably was a guy like jesus maybe even named jesus. Gahndi was a lot like jesus too. Maybe if there weren’t so many stinking cameras following him he would have preformed some miracles to eh?
There is a pink elephant sitting outside your window right now… if you think i’m kidding go look…[/quote]
I know the truth is either the Bible is right, or it doesn’t matter what I believe. Which is what I stated earlier.
So they are interpretations of the past? I think that is what most Christians would agree on concerning the NT. As far as not being very accurate well I guess that would depend on what you know about ancient Oral tradition. Which was placed above most Written work during the time of Jesus.
Jesus was not like ghandi at all! Then again I would not expect you to know what Jesus was like since you don’t seem to know what He said!
I thought you were finished talking to me? You keep saying you are, then ten post later here you are again. It is really becoming annoying. If you are going to stay in the conversation then stay! I told you from the beginning I was not trying to convert you. Why are you so interested in proving me wrong? I have never said mine has to be true. In fact I said I hope you are right so you would not have to go to Hell! I am ok if you do though it is your choice. If God respects it so do I!
Is it just me, or has anybody else noticed something about Christian God. We’ve been back and forth about free will and first sin, etc. And these are all fine justifications for any number of objections one might have against “bible logic”. But really, think about this for a second:
If the bible is right, and the nature of God is hinted at in its pages and through the works of his only son, then God enjoys fucking with our heads.
Am I wrong here? We’re talking about a being who is mysterious for what reason exactly? Why such a recluse there, O mighty one? Why is it such an issue for you to “test” our belief in you? Why play all the pranks and tricks on us like putting a tree in the Garden and saying that we can’t have any of it? You know that we’re gonna do it eventually… you made us that way. In fact, you made sure as hell that we would do it, didn’t you? And then, to add insult to injury, you tell us that it’s OUR fault, when you quite clearly made everything exactly the way you intended. You rascal, you. Now, we have this “evil” happening everywhere, and you won’t lift a finger because of something that our very first ancestors did eons ago. Thanks, big guy, you’re a peach.
Anybody else seeing this? According to the bible, God is fucking with us.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
According to the bible,[/quote]
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Probably can’t even bring yourself to read all of the above verses can you Loth.
Does it feel good to vent at God? That’s okay, but what if He really is your Creator? Read one more paragraph, if you can bear it. Don’t be biased now.
Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Pro 1:25 But ye have set at naught all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
Pro 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:
According to the bible,
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.[/quote]
So what is this? The very first beginning knowledge is FEAR? Wrong. The very first knowledge comes from courage to face the unknown, not fear. What you learn out of fear has nothing to do with wisdom, bro.
As opposed to those who can tell the difference between wisdom and scare tactics.
No it isn’t. I see the results of unfair and unwarranted shit every day that would turn you white. The righteous judgement of your God is nowhere to be seen. Unless you count the suffering of innocent children and the destruction of good families as part of holy and righteous fury.
He hasn’t showed anything to anyone. You find what you are looking for. YOU invent this idea in your own mind.
What kind of crack did they smoke back then? “We can see the invisible things of this world, we have special understanding?” No you can’t, and no you don’t. You don’t know any more of this place than anybody else. In fact, some of you know quite a bit less.
I don’t even know what this is saying, so I’ll skip it. Maybe the bible guys should have laid off the cough syrup before writing.
And I suppose that you consider yourself to be wise, right? I don’t. I consider myself a man on a journey that shall find me learning and changing throughout my life. Professing yourself wise, you become a fool. That’s catchy.
[quote]Probably can’t even bring yourself to read all of the above verses can you Loth.
Does it feel good to vent at God? That’s okay, but what if He really is your Creator? Read one more paragraph, if you can bear it. Don’t be biased now.[/quote]
I wasn’t venting at God, buddy. There ain’t one. That last post of mine was satire. You already know that I’m atheist… why would I vent against something that doesn’t exist?
[quote]Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
Pro 1:25 But ye have set at naught all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
Pro 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
Pro 1:32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
[/quote]
This reminds me of “Vote or Die”. I’m unimpressed. Puff Daddy didn’t kill anybody. I’m not scared, Mr.Chen… sorry. Bad things happen. Sometimes they get better, sometimes they don’t. One thing I’ve learned from working at a hospital is this:
Some people come here to get better. Some people come here to die.
There’s nothing that you can do about it sometimes. Realizing this is the first step to letting go of your fear and seeing this place as it really is. The world is not that scary after all.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Mr. Chen wrote:
lothario1132 wrote:
According to the bible,
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
So what is this? The very first beginning knowledge is FEAR? Wrong. The very first knowledge comes from courage to face the unknown, not fear. What you learn out of fear has nothing to do with wisdom, bro.[/quote]
I have not read the rest of your post…frankly because it is clear to me that you simply find joy in making a joke of something you have no understanding of…but I will respond to this. If your post in response to mine is yet another attempt to make a joke of this concept, any thing else you type will clearly be a waste of my (and anyone else’s) time to even glance over.
This is not related to “fear” as in “I am afraid of having sex with extremely obese women because I don’t know what else may be trapped in there”, but related to “fear” as “I respect that which has more wisdom and knowledge than me and the acts of a higher power”. I am not AFRAID of God. I respect God. Before you can even mock something, you have to understand what it is truly saying. You seem to be having trouble with that. The real problem is, you actually have a few people on this board who seem to be extremely efficient at explaining what is meant…yet you mock them as well without even attempting to use them as a resource. Again, the ball is in your court. If the goal is to turn my belief system into the act of insanity, leave it at that and quit responding. You can have a party between yourself and every other atheist and laugh until your life ends and your essence blacks out or whatever it is you think happens to energy that can not be destroyed. If any part of you wants understanding, I am sure that can be accomodated. My guess, you will simply follow this up with yet another lame attempt to make a joke. While I find Southpark hiliarious, I have yet to find that anything you have written even makes me chuckle.
Will somebody please remove the arthropod from ProX’s ass? Puhleeze, buddy. I am some voice from the internet to you, remember? Is it worth it to get all pissed off? Obviously, the stuff I think that’s goofy about the bible you think isn’t goofy at all. And there’s nothing wrong with that. How many times am I going to repeat myself until it sinks in? If you don’t have a sense of humor about this, then tough. I would say that I’m sorry, but I’m not.
Rest assured that according to your belief system, I will pay for my lack of faith by burning forever in hell, okay? And try to find a reason to laugh a little more – it’s good for you.
Prof X: the problem with your interpretations is just that: they’re interpretations. My genuine impression from much of the Bible is that if God exists and does and says what the Bible cliams then he is an arsehole. I’m not joking here, and I’m not setting out to mock your religion. I honestly think this given what I’ve read of the Bible.
This is another one of my problems with Christianity. For an inerrant book, the Bible sure is open to a hell of a lot of interpretation. If God’s word is self-evident through the Bible, then I shouldn’t need apologetics to explain to me why my interpretation isn’t “correct”.
[quote]Grey Area wrote:
If God’s word is self-evident through the Bible, then I shouldn’t need apologetics to explain to me why my interpretation isn’t “correct”. [/quote]
Then I assume you have actually gone to the bible and read these passages yourself? What I often see here (though I would have not brought any single verses to you) is you waiting for someone to go and find a bible and type something as an answer to something one of you said. I started out a thread asking that someone read a book in the bible. I doubt it was done and doubt it will ever be done. I doubt that in all of your protest to what you hear, that you have actually picked up, downloaded, or even stolen a bible to look for yourself and see what you get from it. It doesn’t NEED my explanation…unless you are so against it that you refuse to look and many get frustrated and go to it for you. Here’s a tip, quit relying on hear-say and read the thing yourself. I seriously doubt most who have actually read these passages sees the word “fear” much differently than I explained it to you…because it is brought up often within context across SEVERAL verses and books so the message is pretty clear. Bottom line, READ IT. Then complain.
First and foremost, I would like to see some of this “Firsthand Knowledge” that vegita claims to have.Although he claims to have it, it has yet to be presented.I have proof to the contrary.There are even a couple of doctors that could not explain why on earth I am still alive. They and the rest of the intensive care unit were absolutely amazed.I would call the damage I sustained,lived through,and made a complete recovery from a miracle,and so have the medical professionals that worked on me.
Second, Prof. X, don’t wory about these guys who whon’t pick up a bible, or when they do, criticise it and try to cross reference Natural laws (pyhsics) with super-natural laws (God). They still don’t know the difference between apples and oranges.They can play their game in the here and now. I’m setting up for the Happily Ever After.
These last two threads on this stuff are like playing chess with someone who wants to play checkers.Yes, the board looks the same(our world), but the rules are completely different. It’s actualy getting a bit absurd.
[quote]Grey Area wrote:
But it would seem far more plausible to me that a God who loves us and would like us to worship him should at least make it abundantly clear to all that he exists.
[/quote]
For the believers on this thread and throughout the world he has. His name was Jesus Christ, you may have heard of him. It’s not abundantly clear to you (and may never be); it is abundantly clear to me.
[quote]rocksolid wrote:
This is my first post to this topic and I will preface it be stating that I am a Christian and believe in the God of the Bible and Jesus of the New Testament.
As far as those atheists and their questions on this forum, I would like to suggest some resources which may help answer the questions you seem to have. For those who simply wish to debunk Christianity, I pray thst you will look at these sources with an open mind, that is the scientific and logical way to approach it, isn’t it?
Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell
The Case For Christ by Lee Stroebel (and his follow up books as well)
Both of the above were Athiests prior to doing hard research and both began their research trying to disprove Christianity.
This site will give you a compelling arguement against the theory of evolution, which is just a theory, not proven fact. I think it takes more faith to believe in evolution than in Christ myself. Especially if you examine the scientific evidence supporting Christianity.
Finally, If you are dead set against Christianity and holding yourself up as the Uberman (Neitzche), you are making an eternal choice. Might I also suggest actually reading the bible and then formulating your argument. I see several times it is suggested to read Job and it doesn’t appear to have been done.
That’s my two cents for what it’s worth.
rocksolid[/quote]
I’m Christian Catholic and I would like to point out that it is possible to believe in Christ and evolution. They don’t have to be mutually exclusive. I believe we did evolve over time and Christ imbued us with his spirit. Just another Christian view, not all Christians believe God and Evolution cannot coexist.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Ok OK OK enough… you believe whatever you want, I will stop trying to apply logic to illogical things an old book claims. The point I am trying to make is that even if you believe it there is no possible way that by citing the bible you can proove it. It is just not possible. The bible is a book, A book who was written by the hands of men. In an ancient language no less. And to say that this book can somehow tell the story of god and everything just because a religion was formed after it is illogical.
[/quote]
Well, history major, if you believe the New Testament is an illogical, old book with half truths then all books throughout history are just as flawed if not more so. The new testament stands on solid ground for whatever authenticity tests you want to throw at it: number of eyewitness accounts, number of written accounts, date of these accounts following the event. It actually is the one of the most solidly accurate historical books out there, history major.
[quote]lothario1132 wrote:
Will somebody please remove the arthropod from ProX’s ass? Puhleeze, buddy. I am some voice from the internet to you, remember? Is it worth it to get all pissed off? Obviously, the stuff I think that’s goofy about the bible you think isn’t goofy at all. And there’s nothing wrong with that. How many times am I going to repeat myself until it sinks in? If you don’t have a sense of humor about this, then tough. I would say that I’m sorry, but I’m not.
Rest assured that according to your belief system, I will pay for my lack of faith by burning forever in hell, okay? And try to find a reason to laugh a little more – it’s good for you.[/quote]
Actually what you wrote wasn’t funny at all. It was pretty ignorant.
Prof X: okay, I’ve read Job now. I’ll accept that the word “fear” is used here in a different way to that which I’d claimed before. I’ll try and find if it’s used to be mean “fear” in the conventional sense of the word anywhere else in the Bible.
However, I’m not sure what reading Job was supposed to convince me of. God appears to be cruel and fickle. Allowing a man’s livelihood and family to be destroyed merely to win some perverse wager with Satan hardly strikes me as all loving, no matter what arguments are used to justify it. God’s anger and fickleness seem to be a common theme as well.
Damn. Can’t edit stuff quickly on here as posts are checked before being posted!
In my previous post, I meant to comment on the fact that “fear” does initially seem to mean “respect/obediance” initially and can be used to mean this later on, but doesn’t always have this meaning. When Job talks about his terror of God, the word “fear” is again used and in this case certainly does appear to mean “fear” in the current meaning of the word.
Also, what on Earth is with the writing style? The book’s at least 10 times longer than it needs to be. I bet you just chose Job to get us to read because you knew how damned boring it is!
A logical as opposed to a religious point, the form
"The Problem of Evil can now be outlined logically:
Given Premise 1: God is all-knowing
Given Premise 2: God is all-powerful
Given Premise 3: God is all-good
Observed Premise 4: But, Evil exists
Conclusion 1: Therefore, God cannot simultaneously possess all three of the given characteristics"
doesn’t seem to me to be logical at all - just an enumeration of the problem. The implicit assumption, as I think someone wrote above, is `If God is 1), 2), 3), then evil cannot exist", which has a logical form but begs the question where the if-then connection comes from - that seems to be the question in the first place.
I recently read David Hume’s “An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding”, anyone interested in metaphysical / religious questions might find it very interesting. Hume argues that what we assume about causality / necessary associations is based on experience; all we have is expectations based on the statistical structure of the world. So, the connection between “it’s raining” and “I will get wet outside” is justified by expectation, so the logical form 1) if it’s raining I will get wet outside 2) I am outside and am not geting wet 3) therefore it is not raining is useful. But still even this simple example is obviously vulnerable to exceptions. So in the case where we have no repeated observations (when were the last 10 times you saw a God being omnipresent? And a God not being omnipresent? And did you measure the correlation with evil? Was it 1?), and extremely vague and controversial terms (good, evil, “God”), it seems very unlikely to me that a clear-cut logical point - either for the atheist or the believer side - is going to be made.
I think the problem is better stated in terms of: given that suffering exists, what do you hope for (e.g. deliverance, a context), what would you prefer (e.g. a world following a different set of rules), what are you prepared to change (e.g. your own behaviour). I think that belief in God, or a kingdom of God, can play a role in these terms, if only as an ideal, or a focussing on the existance of “Goodness” at least conceptually, as something you can choose to live for. From that starting point, maybe some understanding on the nature of what non-physical entity you in some way choose might evolve, and maybe at the end of that process omnipresence etc might be applicable terms to describe your experiences (which would only then have some empirical grounding).