Prof X: are you arguing for the existence of the Christian God, or merely some form of higher power? Your arguments on morality appear to follow the reasoning “if you believe that there is such a thing as ‘right’ then you must believe in a higher being as I define the higher being as that which is ‘right’”. However, you also appear to be asserting that the Christian God is the right one. How do you get from the games in semantics to asserting that your God is the correct one?
“It basically means that you aren’t perfect, God knows you aren’t perfect, and regardless of sin, due to acceptance, your place is already made. With that in mind, it would seem almost illogical to reject the concept of God…but to each his own.”
so based on this model, acceptance is the only qualifying factor to get into heavan? I can sin and yet accept god/jesus and still go to heavan. But if i do not sin, I will go to hell. Is this because of origional sin and therefore I would have sinned at least once by being born and thus have not reconciled that sin by accepting god/jesus? What if I was baptized when I was born, thus eliminating my origional sin (thats the purpose of a baptism right?) and then from that day foward did not sin, not even once, yet still refused god/jesus as my savior? would I go to hell? What if I was a believer up untill the day I died… my family was taken hostage along with myself and tortured and killed in front of me and before they took my life as well I cursed god and jesus and renounced him as my savior. Would I then also rot in hell for eternity?
I am sorry I just have an immensly hard time accepting the fact that if heaven does exist (which I don’t believe) that merely the premise of acceptance is the only gate key. Why would such a lenghty book as the bible be created if all that really needed to be taken from it was that you just need to accept god and jesus.
As to the point that good is measurable by evil not created by it, I disagree. A knight in shining armor can not exist without a dragon to slay. He would have never trained and became a hero if there was nothing evil to battle, he simply would have been a farmer existing. Also why is only destructive acts of man considered evil? The tidal waves in the indian ocean killed far more people than the acts of 9/11 yet do we consider mother nature to be evil? Did the devil cause the tidal wave? Did god cause the tidal wave? in essence I believe god did cause the tidal wave, for he invented the laws of our universe including the laws that govern the techtonic plate movement and the universal laws of physics which enabled such a force to be unleashed. Why did all those people die then? why so much suffering? I would like your answers to not include “god works in mysterious ways” if at all possible.
vegita: I think rejecting God is a sin.
But yes, the criteria for getting into heaven are rather ridiculous.
[quote]Grey Area wrote:
Prof X: are you arguing for the existence of the Christian God, or merely some form of higher power? Your arguments on morality appear to follow the reasoning “if you believe that there is such a thing as ‘right’ then you must believe in a higher being as I define the higher being as that which is ‘right’”. However, you also appear to be asserting that the Christian God is the right one. How do you get from the games in semantics to asserting that your God is the correct one?[/quote]
I don’t. I wrote that I don’t believe there is much difference. I may be wrong, but from what I gather, calling God by a different name does not erase the fact that it is “God”. The basic concept is the same except in polytheist religions. I have already written that I am not trying to get people to think that. That seems to be your argument, not mine.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
haney wrote:
Vegita wrote:
- If I purposely did something evil possibly foresaking my entrance into heaven because it would allow good to exist, continue to exist, grow stronger. That would be a true selfless act for the GOOD of others and the detriment to myself.
Faith is the only thing you need. So your actions would not do anything.
- so would I go to heavan or hell?
That would not depend on what you do. It would depend on If you truly believe in Christ and accept Him.
I think you may need to add that if we truly accept God, then no longer would we be just going through the motions as his question eluded to in terms of being fearful of hell. It basically means that you aren’t perfect, God knows you aren’t perfect, and regardless of sin, due to acceptance, your place is already made. [/quote]
Good point. I sometimes forget that not everyone gets that concept.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
“It basically means that you aren’t perfect, God knows you aren’t perfect, and regardless of sin, due to acceptance, your place is already made. With that in mind, it would seem almost illogical to reject the concept of God…but to each his own.”
so based on this model, acceptance is the only qualifying factor to get into heavan? I can sin and yet accept god/jesus and still go to heavan. But if i do not sin, I will go to hell. Is this because of origional sin and therefore I would have sinned at least once by being born and thus have not reconciled that sin by accepting god/jesus? What if I was baptized when I was born, thus eliminating my origional sin (thats the purpose of a baptism right?) and then from that day foward did not sin, not even once, yet still refused god/jesus as my savior? would I go to hell? [/quote]
Before you go any further…please point out the one man, besides Jesus, who came to this planet and did not sin. I’ll wait.
No man on this earth is without sin. Jesus died for the fact that we sin and our souls should still be saved. If you are having a hard time accepting that concept, it isn’t because anyone else is being vague. Does this mean you can say, “I accept God” and then commit murders and a few serial rapings? Of course not. Obviously, someone who did that would not have the concept of God truly in their hearts. You are the only one making this complicated. You will sin in this life time. Sins alone do not keep you out of heaven. Not being true to yourself and God will.
[quote]Haney
Protestants believe only faith will get you there.
Only catholics believe it is a works based way to get to Heaven. Protestants don’t
Faith is the only thing you need
[/quote]
Not all (or most) protestants believe in salvation by faith. However, its nice for demonstrating the protestant over reaction to the corruption of medieval Papism.
Faith or Works?
Mind or Body?
You can have faith and NOT be SAVED right?
Having faith IS liturgy–working! And people who act right but don’t say that they believe are believing. Thinking is an act and how wwe act affects our thoughts. The mind is in the body and the body is in the mind. By the way, don’t ask what the soul is. In the septuagint there was body mind and spirit. Mind was equivalent to soul and spirit was life force or breath, so Lothario, know what your soul is before you sell it.
Its not like poles of a magnet. Evil is kinosis (self emptying) of God and then filling up the emptyness with something otherwise good: Sex, drugs, feelings of self importance. When those good things take the place in you life reserved for God you be Evil.
Man is sick. Most of us are to some degree good and to another degree evil. What is good and what is evil? Well, these attributes are generally outlined in the Bible and maintained in the tradition of the Christian Church. These good qualities are known as virtues and as humans we are to master these qualities.
The “seven capital virtues” are:
1-humility
2-liberality
3-chastity
4-mildness
5-temperance
6-contentment
7-diligence
The evil qualities are known as “works of the flesh” and are not befitting the jewels of God’s creation (mankind).
The “works of the flesh” are:
1-adultery
2-fornication
3-uncleanness
4-licentiousness
5-idolatry
6-sorcery
7-hatred
8-contentions
9-jealousies
10-outbursts of wrath
11-selfish ambitions
12-dissensions
13-heresies
14-envy
15-murders
16-drunkenness
17-revelries
The mission of the Christian is to overcome the evil within by accumulating virtues while simultaneously battling the works of the flesh. This is a therapeutic struggle which enhances the soul’s purity.
I liken the human soul to a tainted glass of water contaminated with a few drops of chlorine that needs considerable filtration to be purified. Only then will it be drinkable. Likewise, and NOT aside from faith in Christ, only then will any man fully mature into what God intended him to be.
The ancient Christian Church taught that God intends for man to advance beyond the initial level of Paradise where Adam and Eve existed. They were merely in the first stage - purification. The two later stages are illumination followed by deification. As the soul progresses beyond the initial stage, it is further cleansed and purified as it continues to battle against the devil and the works of the flesh; the evil within is gradually vanquished.
Most of us are like people suffering from a cold virus with a compromised immune system. The virus is in us but by strengthening our immune system we eventually gain control over an outbreak and its symptoms. So too is it with sin and evil. We all have sin and we all have evil. The key is to keep it under control until we’re rid of the infection. Needless to say, as there are many viruses, there are also many sins. Everyone has their own afflictions to one degree or another and as Christ says, every man must bear his own cross.
Last but not least, you can all read this short article on evil…
http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/good_and_evil.htm
Peace be with you all!
Original sin was a concept perverted by the medieval Roman catholic church. Same as the concept the God being present in christian marriage except during the act of sexual intercourse.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Not all (or most) protestants believe in salvation by faith. However, its nice for demonstrating the protestant over reaction to the corruption of medieval Papism.
[/quote]
I am unaware of many that don’t, but I am also not a protestant. I would think most would follow Luther’s model for saved by faith.
Works would be a by product of faith.
I would say that depends on your definition of faith. The biblical definition seems to be pretty clear on it.
I think it would all be summed up in Romans 10:9-10
Some clarification for those perplexed about heaven/hell in accordance with ancient Christian teachings. Sadly, most “churches” today preach a mechanical, false life in Christ by teaching that a simple verbal confession gets you straight to heaven. WRONG!
The verbal confession is merely the first step towards eternal victory. It’s like running a marathon and you take the first step beyond the starting point. The key after that is to continue running towards the finish line. Some stumble and roll off into the sidelines while others fall and get back up. Those who quit receive no crowns.
What does it mean to keep running? I hinted at this in my above thread…
As far as heaven and hell goes, God has no favorites. He loves me, a Christian, as much as He loves a Satan worshipper. Hope no one is too shocked by this ancient Christian teaching. And get this - heaven and hell are NOT created entities. This was Franco-Latin heresy which sprung up in the 1100’s. The early Church taught that heaven and hell are God Himself.
Here’s a quick analogy and then I gotta run off to work:
God is alcohol. My soul is my hand. Sins happen to be any wounds/cuts/scratches.
If my hand is free of nicks/cuts and I apply alcohol to it, the sensation will be tingly & refreshing. So too is the experience, for lack of a better expression, “blissful” when God’s energies come into union with my soul if I be free of sin.
Now, if my hand be full of scratches and abrasions, when alcohol is applied to it the sensation will be painful and “tormenting”. Similarly, when God’s energies unite with our soul and we be full of sin, our experience will be agonizing.
The only way to overcome the potential outcome of torment is to be healed of sin - that is what Christians refer to as repentance. Only then can the scratches be healed and the wounds sealed so as not to feel pain when God’s energies fuse with our soul in the Day of Judgement.
You see, God never changes. He remains constant for every one of us. It is us who must change before we come into union with Him. This is what heaven and hell are - the final disposition of God’s uncreated energies fusing together with our souls. This is the reason we need repentance.
Final thought:
As Jesus Christ tells the lifelong paralytic whom He healed according to St. John 5:14, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”
Peace be with you all!
Prof X I have to disagree… I have never sinned. I don’t believe in it so therefore how can I do something I don’t believe in.
Stellar, that is a better description of heavan/hell than I have heard from any other religion. But you are right, it is not how it is teached at least not in my roman catholic church. Thus the flaws of religions. I accept god, I do not accept god or jesus saved me. I am quite capable of saving myself and ascending on my own but I get where you are coming from. I think many of us are on similar paths they might just have different labels. We are all motivated by the same thing, to be re-united with the creator/god.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
“It basically means that you aren’t perfect, God knows you aren’t perfect, and regardless of sin, due to acceptance, your place is already made. With that in mind, it would seem almost illogical to reject the concept of God…but to each his own.”
so based on this model, acceptance is the only qualifying factor to get into heavan? I can sin and yet accept god/jesus and still go to heavan. But if i do not sin, I will go to hell.
[/quote]
Yes
I think that is how Catholics see it. I would disagree on what baptism is for.
That is correct. Although I doubt you would be able to live without sinning.
I would think renouncing Jesus would put you there.
It is more complicated than that, but that is the easiest way to explain it.
I didn’t know good was training to vanquish evil?
[quote]
Also why is only destructive acts of man considered evil? The tidal waves in the indian ocean killed far more people than the acts of 9/11 yet do we consider mother nature to be evil? Did the devil cause the tidal wave? Did god cause the tidal wave? in essence I believe god did cause the tidal wave, for he invented the laws of our universe including the laws that govern the techtonic plate movement and the universal laws of physics which enabled such a force to be unleashed. Why did all those people die then? why so much suffering? I would like your answers to not include “god works in mysterious ways” if at all possible. [/quote]
It would be a product of the fall. Because of one man’s sin death entered into the world.
[quote]stellar_horizon wrote:
As far as heaven and hell goes, God has no favorites. He loves me, a Christian, as much as He loves a Satan worshipper. Hope no one is too shocked by this ancient Christian teaching. And get this - heaven and hell are NOT created entities. This was Franco-Latin heresy which sprung up in the 1100’s. The early Church taught that heaven and hell are God Himself.
[/quote]
Nice to see someone knows their history!
Although I not convinced that Hell is God. I would rather describe it as seperation from God.
As for the rest of your post I would agree. Although I would say some of the wording would be our only contention.
[quote]Vegita wrote:
Prof X I have to disagree… I have never sinned. I don’t believe in it so therefore how can I do something I don’t believe in. [/quote]
You don’t believe in sin? This thread is over. Once people throw out words just so they can have something to type, there is no point in going further. Not believing in doing wrong is a new one on me. That means everyone in jail needs to be released immediately and you won’t mind if I drop by later on and steal everything in your house. Don’t worry about threats of carrying a weapon for defense because I am sure my gun is bigger. See you soon and see if your wife won’t mind me sleeping with her. Since there is no sin, you logically shouldn’t mind. Hell, forget it, with no sin, who needs to ask?!
[quote]haney wrote:
Nice to see someone knows their history!
Although I not convinced that Hell is God. I would rather describe it as seperation from God.
As for the rest of your post I would agree. Although I would say some of the wording would be our only contention.[/quote]
Our exact definition is that hell is God’s purifying energy. The impure is incinerated and the pure remains-so you better have some pea of purity in you somewhere.
Atheists: don’t concern yourself with this on a LOGICAL level please.
HANEY
Ok, your not a protestant, but Romans 10: 9-10 sums up what is required for salvation in your mind. Is that correct?
Well I’ve got news for you. Never noticed this before.
“If you confess that Jesus is Lord…”
Well the kicker is, that the word confess is a poor english word which was used to replace the original Greek word martyra which literally translated means
“Martyr yourself to the fact that…”
If you martyr yourself to the fact that Jesus is Lord you are saved by your works. Works and Faith are THE SAME THING.
Sorry, I made a mistake. Witness is the poor english translation of Martyra which means to die for. Confess in the poor english substitute to homologeo which means to act in accordance with. In the early church the word martyr was use to describe someone who died for Christ, while a confessor was use do described someone who suffered greatly for Christ. For example, John the evangalist was sometimes referred to as a confessor because he suffered greatly but did not die for his belief, although sometimes called martyr because he did receive in fact capital punishment but lived.
The Free will argument is one commonly used by “Believers” It is weak at best. Can you can tell me that all the pain and suffering brought on by the terrible tsunami in Thailand and the surrounding areas is a result of man’s free will?
I doubt it. The Tsunami situation is just one example. The free-will argument is so full of holes its ridiculous.