The Palin/Biden Debate: 10/02/08

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
528

You pulled your $1500 statistic out of the air. It’s not enough for low-income students to attend private schools, anyway.

The problems of admission remain. Private schools choose who to accept and not to accept. One of the key reasons private schools excel is because of this selectivity. Private schools admit students from backgrounds that place a premium on education. And the parents can usually afford tutors for their struggling childern and are capable of recognizing and addressing their needs in other ways. WITHOUT additional support programs for both parents and children, which costs a lot MORE money, admission of kids now in the worst public schools would degrage the quality of these schools.

But the schools would not allow this to happen. The top schools wouldn’t admit those kids. Over time, and not all that long at that, there would be great private schools, mediocre private schools, and terrible private schools.

Best case scenario: education gets privatized. A host of private schools spring up. The best ones cost many thousands of dollars. Parents pay for them with this fanciful voucher of $1500 and additional thousands in private money. Then there are middle grade private schools. They cost less. Finally, you get the lowest grade private schools. They only cost $1500. The amount of the fanciful voucher. They choose to accept the poorest and worst students from the worst backgrounds. The schools still suck. What’s changed? Nothing to speak of. Schools are just private now, and parents get handed $1500 directly to send kids to school instead of the government putting it towards schools. It’s still not enough to establish good schools.

By the way, I NEVER. Never never never said more money per student was all that was needed. I said that students need basic rsources. And students forced to share textbooks 3 to a book and lacking other basic resources will not excel even if their home life was perfect and they had all the educational and other support they needed.

529

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
rainjack wrote:

You obviously don’t understand how the voucher system should work.

You have an ideal, that’s nice. You should keep that idea as you look at the voucher systems that currently exist and think of specific policies that would change a number of problems that currently exist with them, and additional problems that would exist if the programs were to expand. Do you have one example of a voucher system that functions the way you envision it should?

Just because there is something good in theory doesn’t mean it’ll work in reality. The devil is in the details.

The devil is in the federal government thinking that one size fits all. Hell, the devil is in anyone thinking one size fits all.

jsbrook is whining about how horrible vouchers are and how they can’t work because poor inner-city kids in whatever town are not benefiting.

I say that can work. Charter schools are doing quite well here in Texas. I think vouchers would work just as well.

What do you say? You are real quick with the retort, but have yet to offer your opinion on anything in this forum. [/quote]

You say they can work. Dhickey says they can work. But you both completely ignore the evidence. You fail to look at the $ amount of any would-be voucher, the income of the parents of manu of these children, and the cost per student of any decent private school.

No good private school can run on a $972 tuition per pupil Not even this fanciful $1500 tuition per pupil. The only hope is being coupled with an effective state voucher (if possible) program which actually might provide the funds needed. And if there was an effective state program, a federal one would NOT be needed. And the feds could fucking get out of education.

530

The money is not there. The money is not there. The money is not there. The quality of education would remain exactly the same. The quality of education would remain exactly the same. The quality of education would remain exactly the same. YOU would save $1500. YOU would save $1500. YOU would save $1500. That’s all that would happen. That’s all that would happen. That’s all that would happen.

531

Seriously. What the fuck are you talking about. Look at the state programs that exist that give way more than some $1500 voucher. Who are the recipients? 80% are those who were already in private schoools. It’s a boon for their parents bank accounts. That’s it!

We’re not seeing much acceptance of those who weren’t accepted before. They’re rejected. Or they still can’t afford it. Demand is not doing much to drive prices down.

Please tell me how $1500 (the fanciful number of the federal voucher program) is going to be enough for a good private school. Or how elite private schools are going to open their doors to throngs of students from the slums of Detroit. And how, if they did, they could maintain the quality of the school HINT: private voucher programs, fueled by donations, ensured it by setting up extensive programs and support networks for both the children and their parents. This cost a lot of ADDITIONAL money. Tack that on to the cost of this program if you want any hope of improving educational outcomes and not just sending your kids to school for less.

You are all just selfish. You haven’t thought through how this would actually improve education, which it wouldn’t. Because you don’t care. You just want to get the same education for YOURSELVES for less money. And that’s ALL you’re interested in.

532

Well, this is proving to be quite impossible.

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
You pulled your $1500 statistic out of the air. It’s not enough for low-income students to attend private schools, anyway.
[/quote]
It was not pulled out of the air. Go back and read. $1500, or even $900 dollars will be enough for some families to send their kids to private school. The ones that were $1,500 or $900 away. I think it is logical to assume that there is a tipping point for any parent wanting to send their kid to private school. Now on to the point about the poor kids that you completely missed in the last post. Did you even read it? You won’t hurt my fealings if you didn’t.

If $1500 or $900 voucher is enough to move some kids into private schools it benefits those that are still in the public schools. The parents that pay out of pocket (minus the voucher) are still paying local and state taxes that go to the public schools. This means more $ cash per student. Your educational panacea. Get it now?

yep, you’re right. no schools are going to want my money. this is so far from reality I don’t even want to address it but here goes. Then the public school keeps the money and the student. Nothing has changed.

Money talks my friend. If more money is placed in the hand of parents more and better schools will magically appear. This sorcery is sometimes called supply and demand and has brought every inovation of note.

Sounds good so far. Doesn’t sound any worse than what we have now.

This is idiotic and the more retarded thing you’ve posted thus far. As a parent why would I send my kid to a shit school that cost $1500 when I can give that voucher to my public school that you claim I love some much. This way my kid is still getting a $10k education thanks to the state and local taxes and my voucher. Knock, knock, anyone home?

[quote]
By the way, I NEVER. Never never never said more money per student was all that was needed. I said that students need basic rsources. And students forced to share textbooks 3 to a book and lacking other basic resources will not excel even if their home life was perfect and t[/quote]
Ok. you still have no clue.

533

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Seriously. What the fuck are you talking about. Look at the state programs that exist that give way more than some $1500 voucher. Who are the recipients? 80% are those who were already in private schoools. It’s a boon for their parents bank accounts. That’s it!

We’re not seeing much acceptance of those who weren’t accepted before. They’re rejected. Or they still can’t afford it. Demand is not doing much to drive prices down.

Please tell me how $1500 (the fanciful number of the federal voucher program) is going to be enough for a good private school. Or how elite private schools are going to open their doors to throngs of students from the slums of Detroit. And how, if they did, they could maintain the quality of the school HINT: private voucher programs, fueled by donations, ensured it by setting up extensive programs and support networks for both the children and their parents. This cost a lot of ADDITIONAL money. Tack that on to the cost of this program if you want any hope of improving educational outcomes and not just sending your kids to school for less.

You are all just selfish. You haven’t thought through how this would actually improve education, which it wouldn’t. Because you don’t care. You just want to get the same education for YOURSELVES for less money. And that’s ALL you’re interested in.[/quote]

READ. COMPREHEND. then quit posting this diahrea you call rational thought.

534

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
No good private school can run on a $972 tuition per pupil Not even this fanciful $1500 tuition per pupil. The only hope is being coupled with an effective state voucher (if possible) program which actually might provide the funds needed. And if there was an effective state program, a federal one would NOT be needed. And the feds could fucking get out of education.[/quote]

You do realize that USDA money is force fed to the school districts, right? Kinda makes your $972 number more than a little misleading when the fed school lunch program is factored in.

But, that’s neither here nor there. I have no idea why you keep harping on the $972 number, as I have said several times that the fed should be out of the educating business.

My son went to private school in first grade. He went for a little over half a day, was tested at a 5th grade reading level, and a 7th grade math level. All for less than $200/month.

We could go all day long with anecdotal stories about the cost of private schools, and the effectiveness of vouchers to get children out of crappy schools and in to schools that will actually teach them.

Doogie is right. When given a choice, most all parents are going to choose the best education possible for their children. You are against giving people a choice unless they can afford to pay for that choice out of their pockets.

So the programs in wherever, USA didn’t work. You want to throw in the towel and say that all voucher systems suck without exploring different ways to make educating more effective. That’s quite myopic of you. Throwing more money at the problem has not helped one bit. Based on your postings here - you are supporting a definite plan for failure without even considering the possible success of doing something different.

535

You are both so fundamentally wrong. And so fundamentally fail to comprehend the economics of this situation. Congratulations. I didn’t think it possible. Fortunately Congress and the majority of America doesn’t suffer from your delusions.

536

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
You are both so fundamentally wrong. And so fundamentally fail to comprehend the economics of this situation. Congratulations. I didn’t think it possible. Fortunately Congress and the majority of America doesn’t suffer from your delusions. [/quote]

Let’ start here.

How would a federal voucher be worse than what we have now?

537

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
You need to stop believing the bumper stickers you read.

And you need to stop taking what right-wing political commentators say at face value and go look at the actual federal budget yourself.[/quote]

My wife is a public school teacher. I’ve served on several boards and a member of 3 separate education groups, one dealing with State funding.

I’m quite familiar where education money goes in my State and community. Here’s a big hint for you: It don’t into the classroom.

538

[quote]rainjack wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
No good private school can run on a $972 tuition per pupil Not even this fanciful $1500 tuition per pupil. The only hope is being coupled with an effective state voucher (if possible) program which actually might provide the funds needed. And if there was an effective state program, a federal one would NOT be needed. And the feds could fucking get out of education.

You do realize that USDA money is force fed to the school districts, right? Kinda makes your $972 number more than a little misleading when the fed school lunch program is factored in.

But, that’s neither here nor there. I have no idea why you keep harping on the $972 number, as I have said several times that the fed should be out of the educating business.

My son went to private school in first grade. He went for a little over half a day, was tested at a 5th grade reading level, and a 7th grade math level. All for less than $200/month.

We could go all day long with anecdotal stories about the cost of private schools, and the effectiveness of vouchers to get children out of crappy schools and in to schools that will actually teach them.

Doogie is right. When given a choice, most all parents are going to choose the best education possible for their children. You are against giving people a choice unless they can afford to pay for that choice out of their pockets.

So the programs in wherever, USA didn’t work. You want to throw in the towel and say that all voucher systems suck without exploring different ways to make educating more effective. That’s quite myopic of you. Throwing more money at the problem has not helped one bit. Based on your postings here - you are supporting a definite plan for failure without even considering the possible success of doing something different.
[/quote]

No, I’m not. I’m saying let the STATES who are the prime funders of education as they should be do it if they wish. They can potentially fund it properly. The Fed can’t. Let’s use your numbers and dhickey’s ficitional $1500 voucher. Well, lots of parents can’t afford to spend an extra $900 fucking a year to sent their kid to private school FIRST GRADE. That’s first grade. I’m glad that you can. But you can with or WITHOUT a voucher. Plenty of parents can’t and wouldn’t be able to even WITH a voucher. And $2400 is only the cost of a first grade private school education in Texas.

In my neighborhood, a year at the average private school–especially in middle school and beyond–costs well over $10,000. If not more. With the amount of money the federal government can afford to spend on vouchers, many millions of parents will still be short many thousands of dollars. This is true even if demand does bring the price of some private schools down. No private school for them. Just a bad public school that now has even less money and is now even worse.

I’m sorry. It’s a nice principle. If done right by a state program, it might even be good in practice. But the fed doesn’t have the money to do it right. And it has no business doing it at all. I’m done debating it.

539

[quote]dhickey wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
You are both so fundamentally wrong. And so fundamentally fail to comprehend the economics of this situation. Congratulations. I didn’t think it possible. Fortunately Congress and the majority of America doesn’t suffer from your delusions.

Let’ start here.

How would a federal voucher be worse than what we have now?[/quote]

Hell, I can’t stop fighting yet…It would be worse because less money would be funding the public schools. But a federal voucher cannot be large enough to allow many parents to remove their kids from these public schools and put them in private school. So, they are stuck in these schools that are now even crappier. What the vouchers do is save money for parents who are already managing to put their kids through private school.

I suppose there are families where the couple hundred dollars will make enough of a difference that they can afford private school where they could not before. But many more will not be able to do so even with the voucher. And these are the people in the worst and poorest schools.

540

So, it’s a “if they still can’t do it, others shouldn’t be able to!”

541

One year at Haverford Academy, the best private school in my area and the gold standard, costs between $17,650 to $23,200. This place is ridiculous. Your kid can be a fuck-up with average grades and get into a great college.

It’s an extreme example. But private schools in many areas are DAMMNED expensive. Even if that fictional $1500 per student is true, that’s not going to enable many if any inner city Philadelphian in my area go to any private school near me. It wouldn’t help many hardworking middle-class parents in the less prosperous suburbs afford it either.

I don’t anticipate many if any decent private schools springing up and getting off the ground for potential students at $1500 a pop. Again, this is a generous number. Even for $2000 a pop. And many parents around there don’t have much more than a few hundred extra dollars beyond that voucher amount to put towards their kids education.

542

[quote]Sloth wrote:
So, it’s a “if they still can’t do it, others shouldn’t be able to!” [/quote]

No. It’s that others can and already do. And the federal government shouldn’t be making it easier at the EXPENSE of those who can’t and will never be able to even if they receive the same vouchers.

543

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Sloth wrote:
So, it’s a “if they still can’t do it, others shouldn’t be able to!”

No. It’s that others can and already do. And the federal government shouldn’t be making it easier at the EXPENSE of those who can’t and will never be able to even if they receive the same vouchers. [/quote]

At the expense? I’d assume that if, after recieving their vouchers, they are still not able to afford the cheapest of schools, they probably aren’t paying taxes.

544

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
dhickey wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
You are both so fundamentally wrong. And so fundamentally fail to comprehend the economics of this situation. Congratulations. I didn’t think it possible. Fortunately Congress and the majority of America doesn’t suffer from your delusions.

Let’ start here.

How would a federal voucher be worse than what we have now?

Hell, I can’t stop fighting yet…It would be worse because less money would be funding the public schools. But a federal voucher cannot be large enough to allow many parents to remove their kids from these public schools and put them in private school. So, they are stuck in these schools that are now even crappier. What the vouchers do is save money for parents who are already managing to put their kids through private school.

I suppose there are families where the couple hundred dollars will make enough of a difference that they can afford private school where they could not before. But many more will not be able to do so even with the voucher. And these are the people in the worst and poorest schools.[/quote]

This is simple math. If this is the smallest portion of the total bill it will actually have the biggest impact on those that CAN’T afford public schools.

First - Those that pay taxes and send their kids to private school are still funding the public schools. I don’t see why you would object to money being allocated to the student rather than blindly to the school.

Second, there is a tipping point for those that would like to send thier child to private school, but the funds aren’t quite there.

Let’s look at the math.

11% of all childeren attend private schools.

Best case for your argument

DoE total budget 69B. Minus 11% = 63B for public schools
This is already more than they are getting by about 13B. This is because of the DoE’s huge adminstration budget. Even if the admin budget is only cut in half for the DoE public schools get more than they are currently getting if no new enrollment in private schools.

$ per student go up.

Now, let’s say that private school enrollment doubles to 20%.

First, state and local tax money is still there. With less students in public schools the numbers look like this.

Was 8k per student.
With 10% less students it is now 9.2k per student in public schools

Fed funding per student does not change as the dollars follow the student.

Let me spare you any further logic as I know this must be tiering for you. As more federal vouchers go to private schools funding per student in public schools GOES UP.

545

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
You need to stop believing the bumper stickers you read.

And you need to stop taking what right-wing political commentators say at face value and go look at the actual federal budget yourself.

My wife is a public school teacher. I’ve served on several boards and a member of 3 separate education groups, one dealing with State funding.

I’m quite familiar where education money goes in my State and community. Here’s a big hint for you: It don’t into the classroom.
[/quote]

Maybe not. That’s an entirely different issue. It’s still a fact that a very small percentage of the federal budget is devoted to funding education. And a very small percentage of the FEDERAL taxes we pay support education. What the State does with its money is irrelevant to this discussion. You are all advocating a federal voucher program paid for by federal taxes.

546

[quote]Sloth wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Sloth wrote:
So, it’s a “if they still can’t do it, others shouldn’t be able to!”

No. It’s that others can and already do. And the federal government shouldn’t be making it easier at the EXPENSE of those who can’t and will never be able to even if they receive the same vouchers.

At the expense? I’d assume that if, after recieving their vouchers, they are still not able to afford the cheapest of schools, they probably aren’t paying taxes. [/quote]

What? They are in the cheapest of schools. The worst of the public schools. It’s at their expense because there is now even less money going to these schools. Kids in these schools are already 3 to a book. What now?:

“Sorry kids. We can’t afford books at all anymore. Tax money that previously went to the school now goes to vouchers. Unfortunately, the vouchers aren’t close to enough money to help your parents pull you out of this shiteous school. Sorry again. So, instead of reading about the Magna Carta tonight, your homework will be to go to the community youth center and watch Dora the Explorer.”

547

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
One year at Haverford Academy, the best private school in my area and the gold standard, costs between $17,650 to $23,200. This place is ridiculous. Your kid can be a fuck-up with average grades and get into a great college.

It’s an extreme example. But private schools in many areas are DAMMNED expensive. Even if that fictional $1500 per student is true, that’s not going to enable many if any inner city Philadelphian in my area go to any private school near me. It wouldn’t help many hardworking middle-class parents in the less prosperous suburbs afford it either.

I don’t anticipate many if any decent private schools springing up and getting off the ground for potential students at $1500 a pop. Again, this is a generous number. Even for $2000 a pop. And many parents around there don’t have much more than a few hundred extra dollars beyond that voucher amount to put towards their kids education.[/quote]

Average private school in 2000 was less than 5k. Only 20% of households making 100k or more send their kids to private school. So only about twice as likely as families that make less.

December 1999 - By a margin of nine to one, Americans believe parents should have the right to choose their child’s school, according to a report released last month by Public Agenda, a research organization based in New York City. Moreover, if they were given a choice of schools-- along with the financial wherewithal to exercise it-- a full 55 percent of parents who currently send their children to public schools would want to send them to private schools.

The report, titled On Thin Ice, presents findings from a poll taken to assess the public’s attitudes on vouchers, charter schools, and related issues. The survey of 1,200 citizens, about one-third of whom were parents of school-age children, was bolstered by insights from five focus groups.

One of the poll’s findings is that people who have private schools in their communities believe by wide margins that such schools “generally provide a better education” than public schools and do a better job “teaching academic skills” and “maintaining discipline and order.” (For 67 percent of respondents, the term “private schools” refers to “parochial schools or Christian academies,” while for 16 percent it refers to “nonreligious private schools.”)