[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Christine wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Dissect it anyway you want, she has charisma.
I completely disagree with this statement.
If she has charisma, why do I have the urge to strangle her until her eyes pop out.
I’m really not a violent person.
jealousy[/quote]
Ha!
Well, maybe a little. I wish that I could still believe in fairy tales.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
nope, wrong, you are missing the point.[/quote]
Oh, piss off. Just what is the fucking point? Voucher programs have saved money for parents who send their kids to private schools. They’ve helped almost no children whose parents can’t afford private schools attend them.
And it’s also not cost effective for comfortable parents who don’t want their kids in private schools and purposely pay high taxes to send their kids to top public schools. YOU like the programs because they’re good for YOUR pocket book. End of story.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Personally, I think private and parochial schools are vastly inferior to top public schools. You get a good education which makes it preferable to a bad public school But usually the peer group is horrendous.
I wouldn’t send a child to a private school unless it was necessary because of learning disability or something the public school couldn’t adequately cater to.
I went to private school from first to fifth grade. Then my parents moved me to public school. They did it because of the peer group. The kids were just messed up.
Grew up with tons of money, way too fast, few values, NO boundaries. Had everything handed to them. Most of them are really messed up today. Drug problems. Aimless. Not working. My parents had plenty of money, but I had work for things. I drove a civic. Not a BMW.
I was raised to recognize how lucky I was and not take things for granted. In my experience, kids in public school–even wealthy ones–are raised with much better values and are much less messed up.
Parochial schools are even worse. I dated a Catholic girl for a year in high school. She went to an all-girls Catholic school. I’ve never seen such a boy-crazy, promiscuous, hypersexualized group of girls. It was great at 16. But I would never want that to be my daughter when I’m 40.
So the problem is the parents, not the schools, right?[/quote]
Probably. It’s the parents who choose to send their kids to private school. At least in communities with good public schools. But the result is a bad peer group at these private schools.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
dhickey wrote:
nope, wrong, you are missing the point.
Oh, piss off. Just what is the fucking point? Voucher programs have saved money for parents who send their kids to private schools. They’ve helped almost no children whose parents can’t afford private schools attend them.
And it’s also not cost effective for comfortable parents who don’t want their kids in private schools and purposely pay high taxes to send their kids to top public schools. YOU like the programs because they’re good for YOUR pocket book. End of story. [/quote]
nope. so wrong and so missing the point. You are obviously not capable of thinking through the most basic and efficient way of funding EVERYONE’S education. Knock, knock pudding head.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
There are no significant pitfalls (compared to what we have) to a voucher program. [/quote]
Unless you count Not Working as a significant pitfall. If there’s no significant pitfalls, there’s no benefits either. What we have is crappy. This is supposed be about educational reform.
As I’ve said, a voucher system–at least the way all public ones to date have been structured–do nothing to improve education. At all. They provide the SAME education to the SAME people at reduced cost.
If reduced cost is ALL you care about, then fine. Vouchers work. And they don’t even work for everyone. They’re not even cheaper for everyone. They’re only cheaper for parents who want their kids to go to private school.
There is still the problem of ME paying additional taxes to send your kids to private school when I’d already be paying plenty of state and local taxes to send my kids to public school. Where I want then.
[quote]dhickey wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
dhickey wrote:
nope, wrong, you are missing the point.
Oh, piss off. Just what is the fucking point? Voucher programs have saved money for parents who send their kids to private schools. They’ve helped almost no children whose parents can’t afford private schools attend them.
And it’s also not cost effective for comfortable parents who don’t want their kids in private schools and purposely pay high taxes to send their kids to top public schools. YOU like the programs because they’re good for YOUR pocket book. End of story.
nope. so wrong and so missing the point. You are obviously not capable of thinking through the most basic and efficient way of funding EVERYONE’S education. Knock, knock pudding head.[/quote]
So you say. But you’ve failed to offer one SHRED of evidence how this is so. ALL you’ve done is say I’m wrong. So, explain. Or stop talking.
The last Gallop poll found that only 45 percent of public-school parents would switch their kids to private schools if students could attend private schools TUITION-FREE.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
The last Gallop poll found that only 45 percent of public-school parents would switch their kids to private schools if students could attend private schools TUITION-FREE.[/quote]
Keep reaching. Still not getting it. Here is an assignment for you. Think about what would happen if EVERY parent were given a voucher for the amount that the fed was spending per child anyway.
You think we would continue to have the exact same schools we have today?
If not, how would things change?
You guys DO realize that this has been a MAJOR hijack of this thread, don’t you?
CARRY ON!
Mufasa
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
The last Gallop poll found that only 45 percent of public-school parents would switch their kids to private schools if students could attend private schools TUITION-FREE.[/quote]
A more telling story:
Public schools no place for teachers’ kids
More than 25 percent of public school teachers in Washington and Baltimore send their children to private schools, a new study reports.
Nationwide, public school teachers are almost twice as likely as other parents to choose private schools for their own children, the study by the Thomas B. Fordham Institute found. More than 1 in 5 public school teachers said their children attend private schools.
In Washington (28 percent), Baltimore (35 percent) and 16 other major cities, the figure is more than 1 in 4. In some cities, nearly half of the children of public school teachers have abandoned public schools.
In Philadelphia, 44 percent of the teachers put their children in private schools; in Cincinnati, 41 percent; Chicago, 39 percent; Rochester, N.Y., 38 percent.
The same trends showed up in the San Francisco-Oakland area, where 34 percent of public school teachers chose private schools for their children; 33 percent in New York City and New Jersey suburbs; and 29 percent in Milwaukee and New Orleans.
Michael Pons, spokesman for the National Education Association, the 2.7-million-member public school union, declined a request for comment on the study’s findings. The American Federation of Teachers also declined to comment.
Public school teachers told the Fordham Institute’s surveyors that private and religious schools impose greater discipline, achieve higher academic achievement and offer overall a better atmosphere.
[quote]jsbrook wrote:
I don’t want MY tax dollars, particularly my FEDERAL tax dollars (in the case of a federal voucher program),
To fund your choice to send your kids to private school and other parents like you who are doing fine financing it on their own. Not when I plan to live somewhere with high property taxes and otherwise high STATE and LOCAL taxes so my kids can go to an excellent public school.[/quote]
You have no idea how much it costs me to send my kids to school, nor do you have any idea how I fund it.
You do, however, presume to know how to spend my money better than I do. Your position makes no sense. I want my share of my money, not yours.
If I pay 5k in taxes that go to education (state/local/fed combined), then I want a check for $5k back so I can send my kids to the school of my choice-- Don’t worry, I won’t be burdening the public school system at all.
Basic economic principles work with education, too.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
You guys DO realize that this has been a MAJOR hijack of this thread, don’t you?
CARRY ON!
Mufasa[/quote]
No shit!
We should be talking about how that evil bitch will destroy this country given the chance.
[quote]Christine wrote:
We should be talking about how that evil bitch will destroy this country given the chance.[/quote]
No worries— Hillary was defeated in the primaries (for now)…
So, how 'bout that botox job Biden had, eh?
[quote]dhickey wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
The last Gallop poll found that only 45 percent of public-school parents would switch their kids to private schools if students could attend private schools TUITION-FREE.
Keep reaching. Still not getting it. Here is an assignment for you. Think about what would happen if EVERY parent were given a voucher for the amount that the fed was spending per child anyway.
You think we would continue to have the exact same schools we have today?
If not, how would things change?
[/quote]
Wow. A voucher to all Americans representing the 9% of education the Fed funds? An average of $974 per pupil! That amount in the pockets of Americans would really revolutize the system. Not.
Here’s what would happen:
The 55% of parents who want to keep their kids in public school irrespective of cost would do so and continue to pay state and local taxes. These wouldn’t go away because the majority of parents want their kids in public school, and it would continue to need to be financed. Plus the vouchers really don’t make a dent in financing a private school education. Read on.
They would pay federal taxes on top of that to support the minority of parents who choose to send their kids to private school. Parents who can afford to send their kids to public school already and want to would do so. They’d have about an extra $1000 in their pockets. How nice.
Parents who CAN’T afford to send their kids to private school but want to STILL couldn’t because the federal government only finances 9% of education and the amount the federal government spends on each pupil does not come close to covering one year at most private schools.
Not even close! The federal government contributed contributed $974 per student enrolled in public school systems. $974!
And there’s the meat of it. That’s what a federal voucher program would do. But additionally:
Plus, private schools would continue to be allowed to remain selective-ONE reason why they are successful. Or they wouldn’t. and suddenly private schools would begin experiencing many of the problems that some of the worse public schools do.
PLUS, even though a minority of parents would choose to move their kids to private school, existing private schools could not possibly come close to accepting all those who would want to attend. Even if they wanted to. Even if they were of the caliber that private schools typically accept.
Homework assignment for you? What do you think private schools would look like if they abandoned all aspects that make them private such as admission criteria.
Private voucher programs that have been succesful have set up extensive networks of support and programs to help kids from impoverished backgrounds succeed in schools with a much more rigorous academic curriculum that have traditionally catered to kids with backgrounds that instill higher education as a cultural ideal.
A successful federal program, if that’s possible, would cost quite a bit more than you’re envisioning. Many parents, whose kids are in the lowest income bracket and in the worst schools, would need much more money to afford private school for their kids than a voucher in the amount the federal government spends per pupil provides.
And additional programs and support networks are necessary to help those kids suceeed.
Education is predominately a state and local issue. And it SHOULD be. The federal government DOESN’T currently spend enough on education to make a per pupil voucher effective. And it SHOULDN’T. State vouchers systems might have a hope of working if done right since 91% of education funding is financed by the state and local governemnts.
A voucher in the amount the state and district combined spend on each pupil might actually allow students to attend private school who otherwise couldn’t afford to.
Check the statistics:
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/education/011747.html
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
The last Gallop poll found that only 45 percent of public-school parents would switch their kids to private schools if students could attend private schools TUITION-FREE.
A more telling story:
Public schools no place for teachers’ kids
More than 25 percent of public school teachers in Washington and Baltimore send their children to private schools, a new study reports.
Nationwide, public school teachers are almost twice as likely as other parents to choose private schools for their own children, the study by the Thomas B. Fordham Institute found. More than 1 in 5 public school teachers said their children attend private schools.
In Washington (28 percent), Baltimore (35 percent) and 16 other major cities, the figure is more than 1 in 4. In some cities, nearly half of the children of public school teachers have abandoned public schools.
In Philadelphia, 44 percent of the teachers put their children in private schools; in Cincinnati, 41 percent; Chicago, 39 percent; Rochester, N.Y., 38 percent.
The same trends showed up in the San Francisco-Oakland area, where 34 percent of public school teachers chose private schools for their children; 33 percent in New York City and New Jersey suburbs; and 29 percent in Milwaukee and New Orleans.
Michael Pons, spokesman for the National Education Association, the 2.7-million-member public school union, declined a request for comment on the study’s findings. The American Federation of Teachers also declined to comment.
Public school teachers told the Fordham Institute’s surveyors that private and religious schools impose greater discipline, achieve higher academic achievement and offer overall a better atmosphere.
[/quote]
Most of these polls compare private schools to poorly-functioning CITY schools. Find me some teachers who live in wealthy suburbs with good public schools who prefer private schools for their kids.
Note that these are also significant minorities of the teachers. What is this poll supposed to be proving again?
It’s also academic when you’re talking about a FEDERAL voucher program as my last post shows. The average contribution the FEDERAL government makes per pupil is $974. That doesn’t come close to financing a year in private school for the minority of parents and TEACHERS (as your poll shows) who actually want their kids there.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
I don’t want MY tax dollars, particularly my FEDERAL tax dollars (in the case of a federal voucher program),
To fund your choice to send your kids to private school and other parents like you who are doing fine financing it on their own. Not when I plan to live somewhere with high property taxes and otherwise high STATE and LOCAL taxes so my kids can go to an excellent public school.
You have no idea how much it costs me to send my kids to school, nor do you have any idea how I fund it.
You do, however, presume to know how to spend my money better than I do. Your position makes no sense. I want my share of my money, not yours.
If I pay 5k in taxes that go to education (state/local/fed combined), then I want a check for $5k back so I can send my kids to the school of my choice-- Don’t worry, I won’t be burdening the public school system at all.
Basic economic principles work with education, too.[/quote]
Sorry. The FEDERAL voucher program you support won’t give you that $5K back. You’ll get less than $1000.
[quote]Mufasa wrote:
You guys DO realize that this has been a MAJOR hijack of this thread, don’t you?
CARRY ON!
Mufasa[/quote]
Sorry about that buddy. I couldn’t help it. I had to respond to dhickey’s attacks against my future offspring and assertions that vouchers will revolutionize education.
When all a FEDERAL voucher system can possibly do is return roughly $974 to each family, which cannot possibly make a difference in the educational outcomes and what schools most recipients of it will be able to attend.
[quote]SteelyD wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
I don’t want MY tax dollars, particularly my FEDERAL tax dollars (in the case of a federal voucher program),
To fund your choice to send your kids to private school and other parents like you who are doing fine financing it on their own. Not when I plan to live somewhere with high property taxes and otherwise high STATE and LOCAL taxes so my kids can go to an excellent public school.
You have no idea how much it costs me to send my kids to school, nor do you have any idea how I fund it.
You do, however, presume to know how to spend my money better than I do. Your position makes no sense. I want my share of my money, not yours.
If I pay 5k in taxes that go to education (state/local/fed combined), then I want a check for $5k back so I can send my kids to the school of my choice-- Don’t worry, I won’t be burdening the public school system at all.
Basic economic principles work with education, too.[/quote]
So, then what happens to someone like me under this who is happy with the public school in the district he’s chosen to live in? I get to just cash that check?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
pushharder wrote:
GDollars37 wrote:
…The problem is that (he) knows virtually nothing about the rest of the world. (He) clearly knows nothing about Afghanistan, or air strikes, or that this might be a problem in a counterinsurgency campaign.As others have noted, if a Democrat had been in the same position…
Glad to see you’re here to discuss one of Pastor Wright’s favorite parishioners.
Way to dodge the subject.
Wasn’t even close to a dodge. I took your words about Palin, a VP candidate, and appropriately applied them to Obama, a POTUS candidate.[/quote]
Except for the fact that you completely refused to address the issue of Palin’s ignorance. Reminds me of Palin during the debate actually…
Are you really that blinded by bias that you would compare Obama’s foreign policy expertise to Palin’s? Seriously? I don’t like Obama and won’t be voting for him, but to make that claim you have to either be lying or blind.
You realize she is attacking Obama for being “reckless” in claiming that our use of airpower in Afghanistan is killing civilians and worsening our position there.
This fact is common knowledge to anyone following that war. She doesn’t even understand the basic situation in a war we have been fighting for five years. I know she’s cute, but come on.