The title of that website is SO ironic. Would it be so hard for the author to just say, “Sorry, kid, I’ll have to refer you to Dr._______, I have absolutely no idea what I’m talking about when it comes to GH?”
Couple of throwaway lines (the entire “answer” should be thrown away):
WTF? Does he really think he’s going to be borrowing used needles from junkies to get his HGH “fix?”
A BUNCH of other ridiculous drivel masquerading as “expert advice” there, too.
Hey guys quick question, that is sort of related hah. When do you guys recommend adding in HGH to your supplement routine? I have a source and the cash but thus far I’ve only run 2 short test cycles (a third multi compound cycle is on the way). Anything wrong with going with this early on (20 years old) or should I wait longer and become more experienced with AAS alone before stacking AAS/GH?
[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
Anything wrong with going with this early on (20 years old) or should I wait longer and become more experienced with AAS alone before stacking AAS/GH?[/quote]
Also curious about this. Bump.
You’ve really outdone yourself once again here BBB.
And thanks to you Cortes for sharing your experience. This is really amazing stuff guys. Is anyone else actively running this protocol? DD? Dave?
I get the feeling there are PMs flying back and forth regarding this protocol. Any first-hand experiences/results/findings that can be posted back here are much appreciated. Looking forward to reading more.
This needs to be stickied.
Thanks Moriarty, glad you are enjoying.
I do have a couple more relevant questions for this thread in the context of my upcoming show:
I am LOVING the pump from GH. However, I notice my water retention is all over the place from one or two days to the next. I will definitely be dropping my test and GH 1 week out from my show date (July 26th). But I was thinking, if the pump from IM injection is so great, that it would be a good idea to inject IM about 30 minutes before each stage appearance. I will be on masteron, tren and winstrol, and I will be using lasix.
So, it’s probably a dumb question, because, if it works, it works, but I’m just wondering if anyone sees any flaws in my logic here. Is there something here I’m missing, or does this sound like a good recipe for an even crazier pump on-stage than I should already have?
And one more:
Are the fat-loss effects of GH greater overall with IM injections, or will IV net one the same overall results (based upon what members more knowledgeable than myself know or can surmise)? If IM injections will provide, overall, better fat-loss than IV, then I may go with majority IM shots for the last 5 weeks or so (well, four weeks, then drop the last week) up to the show, and then continue with IV afterward.
Any thoughts?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
Thanks Moriarty, glad you are enjoying.
I do have a couple more relevant questions for this thread in the context of my upcoming show:
I am LOVING the pump from GH. However, I notice my water retention is all over the place from one or two days to the next. I will definitely be dropping my test and GH 1 week out from my show date (July 26th). But I was thinking, if the pump from IM injection is so great, that it would be a good idea to inject IM about 30 minutes before each stage appearance. I will be on masteron, tren and winstrol, and I will be using lasix.
So, it’s probably a dumb question, because, if it works, it works, but I’m just wondering if anyone sees any flaws in my logic here. Is there something here I’m missing, or does this sound like a good recipe for an even crazier pump on-stage than I should already have?[/quote]
Sounds like if it works, it should work… have you played with insulin yet? A low dose of slin with a low and perfectly controlled (practised) amount of carbohydrate will give you a fantastic tightness when one has a low (sub-cut) water retention and low body fat level.[quote]
And one more:
Are the fat-loss effects of GH greater overall with IM injections, or will IV net one the same overall results (based upon what members more knowledgeable than myself know or can surmise)? If IM injections will provide, overall, better fat-loss than IV, then I may go with majority IM shots for the last 5 weeks or so (well, four weeks, then drop the last week) up to the show, and then continue with IV afterward.
Any thoughts?[/quote]
From the little i know about the different modes of injection, i would think that the IV method would NOT yeild the same pump… if any. This is due to the fact that blood travels fast in ‘main vains’ (no, not your dick…) and the GH won’t be active in any one place (as far as pump goes) in particular.
Whilst an IM injection means that the GH is a depot for a longer time, as it is diffused through the capillaries and smaller veins through to the larger veins as it leaves the area… this provides a longer action in the muscle in question for a better pump - i would ASSUME.
I just read the question and saw i missed the point! (i decided to leave in my original answer for interest)
For fat loss… i do not know enough about the fat loss mechanism - believing it is due to the increase of other ‘catabolic to adipose’ hormones.
I would have expected that fat loss would be very similar for the two methods, with both being taken up (relatively to SC) quickly by the vascular system… I would say that site specific results for fat loss would be from SC injects due to a longer ‘depot’ and a better overall effect (and muscular it seems - understandably) from IV/IM injections.
JMO - More educated guesses than anything else…
2.5 mg of Valium? Might help a kitten or a toddler sleep but not a grown man IMO.
Hi All,
I used to post two years ago. I have resigned to lurking and I think this thread is very important. On my rHGH research I found this guy below who started taking rHGH intravenously in March 1999. He also talks about Clonidine for the water retention. In view of the educational value of this thread I think Dr. Lee’s experience is both interesting historically and for the purpose of study. He reminds me of BBB and all of you whose screen names are not so familiar to me who are brave enough to self-experiment - I have a quiet admiration for all of you.
Best of luck with the experiment. I am running my own and will be watching you in this very valuable thread. I, too, think this thread should be stickied.
See “Big Doc” experience below:
" ====== In his own words = = = = E-mails from Big Doc = = =
I copy here the first e-mail I received from Big Doc to me, Dated March 21, 2000
I am a 68 year old retired Anesthesiologist. After retirement I owned and operated a bodybuilding gym for 9 years. I became a hardcore body-builder in my latter 50’s, competing in local and state competitions in 89, 90, and 91 (with the help of steroids of course, which all competitors were using at that time). I won five 2nd, 3rd, and 4th place trophies.
In 1992, I began having anginal chest pain, responsive to nitroglycerine. My coronary occlusive disease was no doubt accelerated by high calorie ketogenic dieting and use of 500 mg stack totals of roids per week to drop my bodyfat down to 4% for competition.
In 1992, I was busted by the FDA for making and selling GHB. Four years later I was sentensed to 30 months in federal prison for my “crimes against the state” (I had no victoms). I lost my gym and all my other assets. I suffered two MI’s between indictment and sentensing, and my anginal problem became progressively worse in prison. I refused heart surgery, taking my chances on surviving my sentense.
Two days after my release from incarceration, I had my first chelation infusion. After 12 infusions my coronary status had improved enough for me to join a gym and start easing my way back into bodyduilding. After my first 30 chelations I have continued having one per month for preventive maintenance. Anginal chest pain is no longer a problem for any activity I now enjoy.
Eating junk carbohydrate garbage in the joint and not working out, my bodyfat increased to about 35% (10 inches added to my waistline). I have been doing HIRT (high intensity resistance training) ALA Arther Jones and Mike Mentzer for the past 18 months, and using all the nutritional tricks I know plus creatine and a few other effective supplements. I am now back down to about 12% bodyfat (a loss of about 45 pounds of fat). I lost only 25 pounds of weight, which means I regained 20 pounds of muscle. I believe that such fat loss with simultaneous muscle gain by anyone over 60 without steroids may have never been done before.
I have also been injecting HGH (IV instead of subq for increase bioavaila- bility) for the past 12 months. I would like to warn people with coronary problems about the one potentially serious side effect of HGH use. The water retension from HGH is due to increased secretion of ADH (anti- diuretic hormone) from the posterior pituitary. This hormonal relationship is not in any medical literature. However, it must be true, because the water retension and hypertension are easily controlled by .2mg of clonidine q 12 hours (personal experience). Clonidine’s primary action is retarding ADH secretion. ACE inhibitors have no effect, which means that angiotensin and sodium retention are not part of the problem.
The above is important, because ADH is also a generalized vasocon- strictor, capable of causing coronary vasospasm and death. Older people, especially those with a history of coronary occlusive problems, should have nitro handy at all times, and if angina, hypertension or water retension is a problem while using HGH, should be put on clonidine to attenuate the problem.
I have been getting Saizen from RXUSA and paying $1500.00 for 30mg purchases. I am very interested in finding a less expensive source of HGH.
Hoping to hear from you soon,
David L Speer, MD
The Wisdom of Big Doc
DOC’S PROTOCOL FOR TAKING GROWTH HORMONE:
ON Days: Take 3 i.u.'s rHGH in a single shot for 6 days. Eat normally.
OFF Days: Don’t take any rHGH for 8 days. Keep carbohydrates very low (meat, chicken, fish, eggs, delactosed milk.) A very low carbohydrate diet allows you to drop insulin level. It is not necessary to go into ketosis, but try to keep insulin as low as possible.
WHAT YOU ARE DOING: You are building up GH concentration in the cytoplasm of liver cells and every cell in the body. GH will bind with protein and DNA, and this will cause them to have all the metabollic effects that growth hormone causes. The main effect of Growth Hormone in the liver is production of various IGF’s (insulin growth factors).
The half life of intracellular Growth Hormone is 3 to 4 days. You can see this when you train in the gymnasium, because you can see muscle “pump” and strength gains for a week after you stop taking GH.
You have to have at least 3 i.u.'s to increase the level of intra-cellular GH concentration. Once you reach these greater concentrations, the effect of GH persists for up to a week. If you don’t get the GH concentration much higher than it would be if you didn’t take GH, then you are never going to have much effect.
Growth hormone binds to DNA and causes, or stimulates, the DNA to produce more ribosomes. Then GH binds to ribosomes and activates them to turn out IGF-1 molecules. IGF-1 molecules leave the cytoplasm and go into the plasma, thus becoming circulating IGF-1. IGF-1 has a half life of about 20 hours.
IGF-1 and insulin both do very similar things: they both attach to receptors of muscle cells. The receptors are very similar. These receptors are part of the cell membrane structure. GH and insulin both increase the cellular membrane permeability of certain amino acids, to thus facilitate the transfer of those amino acids into the muscle cells into the sarco-plasm.
The amino acids that insulin facilitates to cross are different than the amino acids that IGF-1 helps to cross. The entire array of both of them combined is what is necessary for “proteo-genesis” (new protein for muscles). It is like a double key system in a bank safe: you need both keys, or you can’t open the safe. You need ALL the amino acids that IGF-1 helps to cross AND all the amino acids that insulin helps to cross, or you can’t have proteo-genesis.
High IGF-1 with low insulin has no anabolic effect because to have new proteo-genesis you need ALL the amino acids helped across by IGF-1 AND of insulin. Low IGF-1 and high insulin also does not help to build muscle because IGF-1 is missing, so the amino acid array is incomplete.
ATP can be formed in ample amounts from glucose, fat, or protein. If IGF-1 synthesis by the liver is markedly reduced during ketosis, as I’ve theorized, it would have to be the result of specific enzyme changes resulting from low insulin concentrations. Low insulin levels cause widespread metabolic changes throughout the body by changing specific enzyme systems.
In fact, low insulin output, by itself, causes shutdown of proteogenesis, regardless of IGF-1 levels, and is the primary (and maybe the only) cause of the greatly increased output of GH during starvation or keto dieting.
Low insulin also increases fat mobilization, an effect enhanced by elevated GH. So, now I withdraw my prediction of low IGF-1 levels during ketosis, but if they occur, low IGF-1 may be an additive factor in the stimulation of GH output, and in the shutdown of muscle proteogenesis.
Growth hormone goes into the insulin producing cells of the pancreas to greatly increase the output of insulin, so insulin goes way up… unless there is very little carbohydrate… in which case high insulin doesn’t happen. If it did, you could go into a hypoglecemia coma, and you could even die. Nobody knows how this happens, but when GH goes into the pancreas, something turns off the pancreas’s response to glucose.
Acromegalic Giants all become Type I diabetics eventually, because GH has so overstimulated their insulin producing cells that they have literally burned out. (Type I diabetes means their pancreas doesn’t produce any insulin.)
The other effect of GH is that it makes us insulin resistant to glucose concentration. The beauty of this insulin resistance is that it allows us to have a high insulin levels without profound hypoglycemia, and together with the IGF-1 this then gives us a maximum anabolic effect.
But prolonged elevated insulin and insulin resistance could lead us in the wrong direction, and Type II diabetes. So in the week off GH, the very low carbohydrate levels causes very low insulin levels, which hopefully reestablishes normal insulin sensitivity. This restores certain enzyme concentrations back to levels that support the burning of fat, instead of glucose and amino acids (catabolic burning of muscle) to cover the energy requirements.
All this means that we have to cycle… and the cycle is: one week ON growth hormone and carbohydrates, and one week OFF growth hormone and carbohydrates.
Growth hormone, however, causes A.D.H. (Anti-Diuretic Hormone) to go up. ADH is a very potent coronary constrictor which also constricts veins. It is produced starting in the hypothalamus. The nerve endings of certain neurons in the hypothalamus reach into the posterior pituitary, and ADH and oxicitocin come from the posterior pituitary. ADH can go up to 20 times normal levels with fear, or anger, and stress. This can cause coronary constriction within minutes, and this can cause a massive heart attack.
Growth hormone makes ADH go up, and as a direct effect of this, water retention goes up, which causes higher blood pressure. ADH is dose dependent of GH, which is why you have to drop the dose if blood pressure goes up too high, until your circulatory system adjusts to handle it. This is the only bad side effect of an otherwise very good dose of growth hormone.
“Clonidine” is the safest high blood pressure medicine. It causes no side effects, and no impotency of any kind. It is indicated if you have high blood pressure due to ADH.
ABOUT ARIMIDEX:
Prohormone precursors (eg., androstenedione) can aromatize directly to estrogen. So don’t take androstenedione, or androstenediol, etc. They are all more likely to aromatize to estrogen than testosterone. Arimidex protects you from aromatization from all of them. Arimidex is a breakthrough, it is breakthrough medicine. Everybody (men and women) should probably be on 1 pill of Arimidex per week.
If somebody is taking GH and also testosterone, then they are getting increased water retention from the increase in ADH, and also increased sodium retention from elevated testosterone. Aromatization of testosterone increases with age. So if you take Arimidex, you block the conversion of testosterone to estrogen. This then helps to reduce water retention due to elevated estrogen. If you also take clonidine, this stops elevated ADH, which stops the active water retention.
Testimonial re: Arimidex alone (without testosterone)
13/6/2006
I took one whole tablet of Arimidex - I had a little tingling in the feet and dryness of the mouth and my heart beat was raised to 80 at resting , normally 60, however I was not exactly going through the happiness momenet of my life being upset over my lady. I also suffered from a bit of insominia which I’m not sure was caused by Arimidex… but if it is, that is fine you have to forego something to achieve something else. Mind you, I’m so in touch with my body that I will notice anything.
16/6/2006 - I took half a tablet. Again same symptoms and was getting tired so I thought I would give it a little rest.
27/6/2006 I took 1/4 of a tablet . Johnny wakes up again in the night, but this time it was due to an erection… mmmm…
In the days that follow I notice a change… I feel more sexy, less tired in the morning… I always have an erection, I masturbate at least twice a day (sorry for the details but I’m single at the moment… and this a a sign my health is improving.)
4/7/2006 I take 1/4 tablet again… I notice I have troouble sleeping even on such a small dose, which is great in a a way, because it looks like I can benifit on a small dose. My Sex drive is so much better, I almost feel like I did 14 years ago, and my body has been choked up with estrogen. I have only consumed 2 tablets and have seen an amazing improvement, in drive, quality of erection, sensitivity… and its not psyco-somatic… not when you wake up in the night with an erection that never happened for a long while without the stimulas of a female partner. Like I said, I know my body.
Well thats it so far… Johnny
WHY YOU BUILD FAT IF YOU HAVE LOW GH:
If you have low GH and high insulin you don’t build muscle because IGF-1 is missing, so you can’t have proteo-genesis. If you are lacking the amino acids used to make muscle protein, you burn less fat… so fat goes back into fat cells.
Very few doctors understand this. More body builders know this better than many doctors do.
HOW TO DO EXERCISE:
Do three, 15 minute workouts per week. You have to go to complete failure, which is where you cannot do another repetition.
ABOUT HIS TROUBLE WITH THE F.D.A.: “The regional director of the F.D.A. came down from Nashville as part of the bust and he said to me: ‘Doctor, I am personally going to see to it that you do prison time.’ - I could not understand what I had done to make him hate me so much. Where did this man from the FDA get this hate for me?”
ABOUT STEROIDS:
Dianabol - makes you “horney and virile.”
Anadrol 50 (oral) is bad for the liver.
Anavar (oxandrolone) is very safe for the liver. Every man should take one or two pills per day. Women can take it too, because it doesn’t have androgenic effects, it is pure anabolic. It boosts the immune system tremendously. People that are HIV+ have taken Anavar for up to 15 years without getting AIDS. They take Anavar plus rHGH. Anavar speeds up (improves) metabolism, and it will not aromatize (convert to estrogen). Zero aromatization. It has no effect on libido, because it has no androgenic (male, virile) effects it is only anabolic (builds muscle). The F.D.A. took it off the market (par for the course, for the F.D.A.) in the U.S. for many years. Now it is back on the market because of the AIDS epidemic. Becoming HIV+ doesn’t even scare me (Doc) anymore because Anavar plus growth hormone will prevent HIV+ from becoming AIDS. For example, Magic Johnson was HIV+, now appears to be negative.
Short Protocol for persons that are HIV+: take 4 Anavar per day, plus 3 i.u.'s rHGH per day."
BBB
I sent you a PM about your aldactone (spironolactone). I haven’t been able to receive PMs for almost a month now?
I’ll ask again here in case it didn’t even go through.
What is your reasoning in choosing spironolactone? It has direct anti-androgen effects at the receptor as I am sure you know. Do you notice them at all? Sex drive? I too have high blood pressure on cycle and was considering taking something for it but haven’t decided what yet.
Hehe, I must admit that as a type 1 diabetic who has grown up seeing himself go hypoglycemic on many occasions when his “nerves were high,” the thought of taking so many molecules with profound effects on blood sugar levels right before a contest like this kind of scares me. Although I cannot attest to the effectiveness of the particular protocol and probably never will be able to, I would at least make sure to check my blood sugar a few times in the hours before and right before going on stage, no matter how experienced I thought I was in dosing said compounds.
I will reemphasize the “no matter how experienced I thought I was” part because with these things you just never know, especially if you’ve been changing your diet a lot or cutting in the days coming up to the event. Although a healthy human has advantages I do not like a more functional endocrine system, the risk should most certainly be there and ignoring it could set yourself up to get burned. This could be particularly true when administering other compounds that your body/mind are somewhat unfamiliar with as well, such as valium, aniractem or anything else you took “just for a little extra energy” or whatever.
Getting lost on stage and falling down from shaky knees, having to leave in the middle of posing because your vision went blurry and were sweating buckets, leaving because you didn’t even know what you were doing, etc. would not be fun! You would be that “dumb insulin overdose guy!”
Updates anyone?
I’m now 3 x 8iu vials into the protocol (or my own adapted version of it)…I’ve been doing IM injects only due to the fact that I haven’t put the time into figuring out IV injects yet but i plan on figuring it out soon…the other difference is that I am splitting the 8iu vial between 3 shots (one early morning, one pre-training, and one post training) instead of the 4 shots BBB recommended (I cut out the late night shot).
The other major difference is that I started the protocol during PCT instead of at the start of a gear cycle…I wanted to see what effects it had before I added in other variables like gear and figured it couldn’t hurt to do it during PCT when I would otherwise be losing muscle and not really feeling like hitting it hard in the gym.
So far not much to report except that I have gotten some pretty amazing pumps (especially when combined with BCAA’s) and I have seen zero muscle loss post cycle despite my test levels being a little below normal…although I have started waking up with morning wood again and libido is starting to go back up so I think I am not far from normal levels but certainly not anything like on cycle.
One negative is that I have been having an issue with my left elbow/triceps…I thought it was the return of bursiitis but it may be a nerve which is getting pinched…when i am doing chest/pressing excersizes it feels like a pinching pain in the bottom of the triceps and elbow and I lose power in that arm.
I didn’t bother to ramp up the dose (just jumped straight to the 2-3iu IM shots) so perhaps that is the issue…i’m not sure, if the problem doesn’t go away within the next few days I am going to see if a lower dose will help avoid it.
Thanks for your feedback FG 
Friend of mine casually mentioned he has a solid gold source recently. As in, “get it for free” solid gold source.
Coupled with that and this thread, oh, the temptation…