The Fed Takes Over

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]yorik wrote:
Don’t confuse capitalism with free markets. Capitalism is just the control of capital. (In communism, the capitalists are the government and the markets are not free.) The question becomes, at what degree of regulation do the markets stop being free?

[/quote]

The relevant question as far as Zaps question is concerned i s, can the government ever stop regulating when it starts.

Historically the answer is no, hence fascism or breakdown, or both.

It makes no difference if you turn people into subjects step by step or vis a coup d´état.

The answer to your question is simple.

Either something belongs to you or it doesn´t. If a government can simply choose to take your stuff away or to force you to use it in a specific way you no longer own anything you just take care of it until your masters need it.

The magical line is right at the beginning where people think that they can vote on how to use your property or the fruit of your labor.

edit: Plus, capitalism is the when the means of production are hold by private indiviuals.

62

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

A mixed economy must evolve into some sort of fascism, just as surely as 2 + 2 = 4.

You have said this countless times but have not provided a proof statement.

In your mind it seems fascism is the result of every action.

We know that pure capitalism doesn’t work and we know pure socialism doesn’t work. What else is there?

Governments don’t like capitalism because it is a dynamic system, changing and growing. People in positions that lose out demand regulation and protection from the markets. They want a mixed economy. But, like a drug, the regulations have an effect, and the market reacts. Look at the big banks: they make NINJA loans because they know the Fed will not allow them to fail.

So, every regulation and intervention has repercussions and those (of course) have to be regulated. You eventually have a huge bureaucracy to ‘manage’ the economy.

Eventually, the government comes to see free markets as a pain in the ass. Constituents are always demanding that they ‘do something’ (food stamps, welfare, make-work programs, on and on). Therefore, after a major crisis, such as a crash or burst of a bubble, the government simply takes over: price controls, wage controls, constant supervision of business —> Fascism.

[/quote]

fail

63

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

A mixed economy must evolve into some sort of fascism, just as surely as 2 + 2 = 4.

You have said this countless times but have not provided a proof statement.

In your mind it seems fascism is the result of every action.

We know that pure capitalism doesn’t work and we know pure socialism doesn’t work. What else is there?

Governments don’t like capitalism because it is a dynamic system, changing and growing. People in positions that lose out demand regulation and protection from the markets. They want a mixed economy. But, like a drug, the regulations have an effect, and the market reacts. Look at the big banks: they make NINJA loans because they know the Fed will not allow them to fail.

So, every regulation and intervention has repercussions and those (of course) have to be regulated. You eventually have a huge bureaucracy to ‘manage’ the economy.

Eventually, the government comes to see free markets as a pain in the ass. Constituents are always demanding that they ‘do something’ (food stamps, welfare, make-work programs, on and on). Therefore, after a major crisis, such as a crash or burst of a bubble, the government simply takes over: price controls, wage controls, constant supervision of business —> Fascism.

fail[/quote]

I guess you didn’t connect the history of our country with the little explanation I gave. I DO try to let students fill in the blanks, create their own analogies. Bad habit, I guess.

Okay. In the past 100 years, the USA has moved from a fairly free market economy to one that is heavily regulated and subsidized. Over 50% of people are somehow dependent, for example, on a government cheque. Under capitalism, there are sometimes events that cause some people distress. These people vote to spread the suffering, or to take resources from those who are not suffering. The government does this. The latter group responds by making it harder to confiscate their wealth. The government takes on more power, and then still more.

Perhaps fascism doesn’t describe the system as well as, say, socialism mixed with feudalism. Most people dream of a happy feudalism, where nothing changes, no job losses, no markets and no competition. Does that describe you, Zap?

64

"The Federal Reserve system is made up of 12 regional banks, each directed by a nine-member board. Six of the nine members are elected directly by private commercial banks. It is not surprising then that the Fed represents the interests of banks.

Long ago Congress gave up its Constitutional obligation to control the nation�??s monetary policy. No longer is our economy controlled by market demands. Instead both our monetary policy and economy are controlled by banking interests. With the Federal Reserve getting more power, we see our monetary system, our economy, and our government more in the control of the banking special interest.

A year before he signed the Federal Reserve into existence, Woodrow Wilson said: �??Liberty has never come from Government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of it. . . . The history of liberty is a history of limitations of governmental power, not the increase of it.�??

Today we see how Wilson�??s actions, not his words, are limiting rather than increasing our liberties."

http://www.jbs.org/node/7653

65

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
…

Perhaps fascism doesn’t describe the system as well as, say, socialism mixed with feudalism. Most people dream of a happy feudalism, where nothing changes, no job losses, no markets and no competition. Does that describe you, Zap?

[/quote]

A pretty big difference between fascism and our current system.

I fail to see the feudalism too.

66

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
"The Federal Reserve system is made up of 12 regional banks, each directed by a nine-member board. Six of the nine members are elected directly by private commercial banks. It is not surprising then that the Fed represents the interests of banks.

Long ago Congress gave up its Constitutional obligation to control the nationâ¿¿s monetary policy. No longer is our economy controlled by market demands. Instead both our monetary policy and economy are controlled by banking interests. With the Federal Reserve getting more power, we see our monetary system, our economy, and our government more in the control of the banking special interest.

A year before he signed the Federal Reserve into existence, Woodrow Wilson said: â¿¿Liberty has never come from Government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of it. . . . The history of liberty is a history of limitations of governmental power, not the increase of it.â¿¿

Today we see how Wilsonâ¿¿s actions, not his words, are limiting rather than increasing our liberties."

http://www.jbs.org/node/7653

[/quote]

Kind of funny to see you complain about private systems being worse than government systems. You must be a socialist.

67

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Perhaps fascism doesn’t describe the system as well as, say, socialism mixed with feudalism. Most people dream of a happy feudalism, where nothing changes, no job losses, no markets and no competition. Does that describe you, Zap?

A pretty big difference between fascism and our current system.

I fail to see the feudalism too.[/quote]

The common feature of feudalism was that everyone knew (a) what their job was and would be and (b) that government would protect them from market forces, usually by outlawing markets. The ‘Lord’ set prices, tolls, tithes, and your station in life.

Want to be an engineer but your father shovelled horseshit? Good luck moving up.

68

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Eventually, the government comes to see free markets as a pain in the ass. Constituents are always demanding that they ‘do something’ (food stamps, welfare, make-work programs, on and on). Therefore, after a major crisis, such as a crash or burst of a bubble, the government simply takes over: price controls, wage controls, constant supervision of business —> Fascism.

[/quote]

It’s hard to predict exactly how things will turn out, because historically, the global economy (at least the modern version of it) is something very new. However, I think more regulation would be much better in the long run. Most people see government control and intervention and automatically think of some Orwellian scenario, but our current economic model is basically just a big pyramid scheme for the benefit of a few thousand wealthy companies and individuals in developed nations at everyone else’s expense.

69

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Perhaps fascism doesn’t describe the system as well as, say, socialism mixed with feudalism. Most people dream of a happy feudalism, where nothing changes, no job losses, no markets and no competition. Does that describe you, Zap?

A pretty big difference between fascism and our current system.

I fail to see the feudalism too.

The common feature of feudalism was that everyone knew (a) what their job was and would be and (b) that government would protect them from market forces, usually by outlawing markets. The ‘Lord’ set prices, tolls, tithes, and your station in life.

Want to be an engineer but your father shovelled horseshit? Good luck moving up.

[/quote]

Are you serious? Is there a better country ever in history to provide better opportunity for advancement than the USA or even most of Western society today?

70

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Perhaps fascism doesn’t describe the system as well as, say, socialism mixed with feudalism. Most people dream of a happy feudalism, where nothing changes, no job losses, no markets and no competition. Does that describe you, Zap?

A pretty big difference between fascism and our current system.

I fail to see the feudalism too.

The common feature of feudalism was that everyone knew (a) what their job was and would be and (b) that government would protect them from market forces, usually by outlawing markets. The ‘Lord’ set prices, tolls, tithes, and your station in life.

Want to be an engineer but your father shovelled horseshit? Good luck moving up.

Are you serious? Is there a better country ever in history to provide better opportunity for advancement than the USA or even most of Western society today?[/quote]

All the Chinas, i.e China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, basically all those laissez faire economies where people work hard and save parts of their income.

You know, the things that made America rich.

71

[quote]omni wrote:
It’s hard to predict exactly how things will turn out, because historically, the global economy (at least the modern version of it) is something very new. However, I think more regulation would be much better in the long run.[/quote]

In a pure sense there are no such divisions in economic law. It would be like expecting different results for physical experiments that take place on the moon because it is not the earth. The only thing new is that people are starting to understand that all production and consumption is tied together and to try and separate them is folly.

[quote]
Most people see government control and intervention and automatically think of some Orwellian scenario, but our current economic model is basically just a big pyramid scheme for the benefit of a few thousand wealthy companies and individuals in developed nations at everyone else’s expense. [/quote]

Not entirely. Big business is benefited by government because they are viewed as part of the establishment and the government has such a limited view of prosperity (they tend to view anything bad that happens as a reason to regulate without paying attention to the consequences). The truth of the matter is that big business uses our current system to their benefit because the system lets them…it seem a natural thing to me to want to protect ones interests.

We need to fix the system by getting rid of the most insidious aspects of it – namely the Fed. At least then bad banks would be allowed to fail and then might actually become more investment worthy.

72

[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Perhaps fascism doesn’t describe the system as well as, say, socialism mixed with feudalism. Most people dream of a happy feudalism, where nothing changes, no job losses, no markets and no competition. Does that describe you, Zap?

A pretty big difference between fascism and our current system.

I fail to see the feudalism too.

The common feature of feudalism was that everyone knew (a) what their job was and would be and (b) that government would protect them from market forces, usually by outlawing markets. The ‘Lord’ set prices, tolls, tithes, and your station in life.

Want to be an engineer but your father shovelled horseshit? Good luck moving up.

Are you serious? Is there a better country ever in history to provide better opportunity for advancement than the USA or even most of Western society today?

All the Chinas, i.e China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, basically all those laissez faire economies where people work hard and save parts of their income.

You know, the things that made America rich.[/quote]

Oh please. They have more government control than we do. I would also venture it is easier to get ahead here than there.

73

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Perhaps fascism doesn’t describe the system as well as, say, socialism mixed with feudalism. Most people dream of a happy feudalism, where nothing changes, no job losses, no markets and no competition. Does that describe you, Zap?

A pretty big difference between fascism and our current system.

I fail to see the feudalism too.

The common feature of feudalism was that everyone knew (a) what their job was and would be and (b) that government would protect them from market forces, usually by outlawing markets. The ‘Lord’ set prices, tolls, tithes, and your station in life.

Want to be an engineer but your father shovelled horseshit? Good luck moving up.

Are you serious? Is there a better country ever in history to provide better opportunity for advancement than the USA or even most of Western society today?[/quote]

You also might want to look into this:

He takes American mainstream economic wishful thinking and tears it a new one.

Highlights: Why inflation is bad, mmkay, why Asia does not need you to to consume the fruits of their labor, why all the dollars that are abroad now will come home and cause a hyper inflation, why America will default on her debts and, bonus points, that there is a “housing bubble” that cannot and will not last, written before it burst.

Plus, how to survive that if you are an American.

This book will hurt your pride but might save you a fortune.

74

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
…

Perhaps fascism doesn’t describe the system as well as, say, socialism mixed with feudalism. Most people dream of a happy feudalism, where nothing changes, no job losses, no markets and no competition. Does that describe you, Zap?

A pretty big difference between fascism and our current system.

I fail to see the feudalism too.

The common feature of feudalism was that everyone knew (a) what their job was and would be and (b) that government would protect them from market forces, usually by outlawing markets. The ‘Lord’ set prices, tolls, tithes, and your station in life.

Want to be an engineer but your father shovelled horseshit? Good luck moving up.

Are you serious? Is there a better country ever in history to provide better opportunity for advancement than the USA or even most of Western society today?

All the Chinas, i.e China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Korea, basically all those laissez faire economies where people work hard and save parts of their income.

You know, the things that made America rich.

Oh please. They have more government control than we do. I would also venture it is easier to get ahead here than there.[/quote]

A, they don´t, not when it comes to opening businesses. To even argue that the US is less regulated than Hong Kong or Taiwan is just silly.

B; that is a matter of perspective. A rice farmer that makes it into the middle class in China has made more social progress than most Americans can hope for.

75

[quote]orion wrote:
…

A, they don´t, not when it comes to opening businesses. To even argue that the US is less regulated than Hong Kong or Taiwan is just silly.

[/quote]
Ignoring the red tape in Red China.

And he still won’t be up to the poor of America.

76

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…

A, they don´t, not when it comes to opening businesses. To even argue that the US is less regulated than Hong Kong or Taiwan is just silly.

Ignoring the red tape in Red China.

B; that is a matter of perspective. A rice farmer that makes it into the middle class in China has made more social progress than most Americans can hope for.

And he still won’t be up to the poor of America.[/quote]

No red tape in the US?

Plus it is not important where he stands compared to an American.

He works, he saves, he makes sure his kids not only attend school but learn.

His currency is under- instead of overvalued, his country produces more than it consumes and there is no foreign debt that will wipe out his savings.

In other words, he is moving up while the American worker is moving down.

I am sure that the Chinese can adopt an American rate of consumption without too much political turmoil, whereas I am not sure if the average American can life like the average Chinese now without some interesting changes in Americas political landscape.

77

“I sincerely believe, with you, that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies; and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.” - Thomas Jefferson.

Pretty much sums it up for me.

78

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
And he still won’t be up to the poor of America.[/quote]

Not yet. But that’s the entire point. One day he will be. One day is family will be doing quite well because China is startinf to understand the notion capitalism – as well as all of its implications.

79

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
And he still won’t be up to the poor of America.

Not yet. But that’s the entire point. One day he will be. One day is family will be doing quite well because China is startinf to understand the notion capitalism – as well as all of its implications.[/quote]

Perhaps, but it will not be in my lifetime or my kids lifetime. A lot can change too in that time.

80

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
And he still won’t be up to the poor of America.

Not yet. But that’s the entire point. One day he will be. One day is family will be doing quite well because China is startinf to understand the notion capitalism – as well as all of its implications.

Perhaps, but it will not be in my lifetime or my kids lifetime. A lot can change too in that time.[/quote]

You will experience massive inflation, upside down mortgages and a recession in the next 5 years.

That will make it much easier for the Chinese to close the gap.

If you are in your early forties you will see the Chinese running circles around the American economy.

Oooops, they are already doing that.

It all comes down to this:

Saving builds wealth, consuming, um, consumes it.

To think that the money creation fairy can change that was and always will be dangerous wishful thinking.

30 years of inflating the money supply, manipulating statistics and all the little recessions that avoided will come down like Thor’s hammer.

If I were you I would not hope for a soft landing.

I would buy real estate (should be cheap now) at fixed interest rates, and get the rest of my money out of the dollar.

When you need 100$ to buy a loaf of bread you should be able to pay back your loans easily.