The Collider, the Particle and a Theory About Fate

[quote]asusvenus wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
How will this collider actually help the human race?

I hate that line of thinking SO FUCKIN’ much.

Who cares about the human race? Knowledge is everything.

Yes, I know I’m contradicting myself, but that question is just like the peeps in gradeschool going, “Uhm, Why do I need to learn “Insert math topic of the week””

Then again, you’re right, let’s invest money in nukes… yaaaa![/quote]

I never said, “nukes.” I was thinking of putting that money toward feeding people, or better yet free Health Care for all. If this thing never works then this will be one of the biggest blunders ever.

But if you think finding a particle that produces a higgs boson then knock yourself out. I just dont think the govt should have to pay for it.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
asusvenus wrote:
I guess I misunderstood the whole multiverse idea then.

I alwways figured it something like this: Let’s say an electron wants to get from point A to point B, how many paths can this electron follow? Yep, and infinit amount. So, each posible path does infact represent each individual universe.

It is not focused on humans or life, it is focused on the myriads of different posiblities there are for each and every particle. In other word, every posible state is not just posible, but is true.

But I guess I was way off then?

I’m not sure…in my mind, you are describing an infinite number of potential outcomes in our own universe and I believe what you describe is our basic hinderance to predicting the future. My understanding of the multiverse is that all the those infinite outcomes are actually occuring in other universes? I may be wrong…never studied it.

[/quote]

No, we’re on the same page then. The electron only followed one specific route in our universe, because the probability stated that it should follow that route. However, there is also a lower probability that it will follow an alternative route, this is where the additional universes are created.

This is kinda like quantum tunneling, where an object actually manages to do something, that it really shouldn’t be. Without it fusion couldn’t occur in our sun’s core. Though not entirely relevant.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I hope my sputzing on about the multiverse theory does not have you thinking I am sold on this as THE theory. I was just explaining what they may be onto with thier statements. I also think they may be trying to lend credible scientific process to make the theory or whichever precise one they will be trumpeting along with this. They were looking at the probablilities of things happening and in essence are trying to say the probability of such and such, such and such, AND such and such are so remote, then there must be some “thing” which is making it go down this way, like weighted dice.

I don’t even know if they are claiming what I was rambling on about the multiverse, I just saw it as one possible way the future could in fact effect the past. (theoretically)

V

Well, accepting for a moment the multiverse theory, no matter how meritful or flawed it may be, but accepting it at face value - it would seem to be at odds of ever attempting to “sabatoge” a bad outcome as it would only be one outcome in one universe among an infinite number of other outcomes in an infinite number of universes. Where such an infinite number of outcomes can simultaneously exist, there should be no preference to one outcome over another.

If in fact, something is trying to sabotage the collider, it would be evidence for linear time and single universe outcomes as we perceive/experience it. Make sense?

[/quote]

I was only using the multiverse theory with the premise that a life does not extinguish, it instead jumps to another branch of the multiverse where the life continues to exist. If this premise is not present, then the multiverse theory does not lend any credibility to the future influencing the past. I wasn’t trying to imply this was what they were saying, I was just saying, hey here is a theory, and here is how one could view it as the future having some impact on the past.

V

[quote]dmaddox wrote:
asusvenus wrote:
dmaddox wrote:
How will this collider actually help the human race?

I hate that line of thinking SO FUCKIN’ much.

Who cares about the human race? Knowledge is everything.

Yes, I know I’m contradicting myself, but that question is just like the peeps in gradeschool going, “Uhm, Why do I need to learn “Insert math topic of the week””

Then again, you’re right, let’s invest money in nukes… yaaaa!

I never said, “nukes.” I was thinking of putting that money toward feeding people, or better yet free Health Care for all. If this thing never works then this will be one of the biggest blunders ever.

But if you think finding a particle that produces a higgs boson then knock yourself out. I just dont think the govt should have to pay for it. [/quote]

Hehe sorry I might have jumped the gun, I really really just hate that question.

I’m used to free health care anyways.

[quote]Vegita wrote:
I was only using the multiverse theory with the premise that a life does not extinguish, it instead jumps to another branch of the multiverse where the life continues to exist. If this premise is not present, then the multiverse theory does not lend any credibility to the future influencing the past. I wasn’t trying to imply this was what they were saying, I was just saying, hey here is a theory, and here is how one could view it as the future having some impact on the past.

V[/quote]

That theory fails in the light of abiogenesis, in my opinion. If life can be “created” it can be destroyed.

The reverse of energy can not be created nor destroyed.

[quote]asusvenus wrote:
Vegita wrote:
I was only using the multiverse theory with the premise that a life does not extinguish, it instead jumps to another branch of the multiverse where the life continues to exist. If this premise is not present, then the multiverse theory does not lend any credibility to the future influencing the past. I wasn’t trying to imply this was what they were saying, I was just saying, hey here is a theory, and here is how one could view it as the future having some impact on the past.

V

That theory fails in the light of abiogenesis, in my opinion. If life can be “created” it can be destroyed.

The reverse of energy can not be created nor destroyed.
[/quote]

Sure, but there is no way to tell for sure. I mean you can’t prove a life doesn’t snap into another branch of the multiverse upon death in this one. Even though one may be more probable than the other. I’m not trying to argue it’s validity, I just wanted to throw out a possibility where the future could effect the past. At least from the observers point of view.

V

This video is relevant to the discussion of multiverse theory I think. Even if it isn’t, it’s still damn cool and I can’t wait to read this book.

http://video.google.ca/videosearch?hl=en&source=hp&q=imagining%20the%20tenth%20dimension%20video&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wv#

Why is the higgs boson important?

Well, it would prove how gravity works. If it is indeed a field that particles drag through, then you could theoretically find a way to negate the mass of an object by having it slip through the higgs field without drag. Reducing mass equals reducing the amount of energy it takes to move that object. That could be one way to interstellar travel. Or you could reduce the weight of a car to allow for exponential increases to fuel economy. Pretty much end all energy dependance. You know, theoretically.

Watch this after you watch the 10 dimensions one. It’s good.

V

[quote]Vegita wrote:

Watch this after you watch the 10 dimensions one. It’s good.

V[/quote]

Sooo… “god” is just some lucky bitch who just happens to be… god.

Great thread. Exactly what I wanted.

Thanks for the posts V. Helping me out. And there was a show on TV last night about this very thing on the Explorer channel that explained the strings a little bit…

unfortunately I have to read all of these things three thousand times because I’ve only got a mind for literature, not physics, but still find science intensely interesting.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Great thread. Exactly what I wanted.

Thanks for the posts V. Helping me out. And there was a show on TV last night about this very thing on the Explorer channel that explained the strings a little bit…

unfortunately I have to read all of these things three thousand times because I’ve only got a mind for literature, not physics, but still find science intensely interesting.

[/quote]

I don’t get literature. I just don’t get it. I’m like, why say something beautiful or elegant when you can say it simple and straight forward?

Though I respect people who do get it. (Especially my CRAZY danish teacher, who also happens to be a physics teacher, he draws the weirdest paralels you can imagin. Did you know that everything is actually about sex? I mean everything.)

[quote]Vegita wrote:
I’m not trying to argue it’s validity, I just wanted to throw out a possibility where the future could effect the past. At least from the observers point of view. [/quote]

Well, if you like that, I think you would like Wheeler-Feynman advanced and retarded waves, previously mentioned.

Briefly, many interpret quantum theory in terms of a photon being emitted from an atom (or otherwise) and a wave function goes out with different probabilities of the photon being found in any location, and at some point the wave function is collapsed thanks to a conscious observer.

In this interpretation nothing about it is affected until that collapse, except for weird stuff such as whether it passed through one or two slits at the same time depending on whether a conscious observer makes a measurement of that, which could be after the fact.

It needs to be emphasized that this is an interpretation rather than what the math says or what can be proven by experiment. (Obviously, it’s a tautology that conscious observers only observe that which is observed by conscious observers, so the fact that that is so proves nothing.)

Now, an interesting thing is that “to a photon” (not that a photon is conscious) time of arrival is the same instant as time of departure, as at the speed of light zero time passes regardless of the distance traveled. In other words, “to the photon,” light from the Andromeda galaxy that strikes your eye at night while stargazing does so at the same instant as it departed, rather than one event being “past” and the other being “future.”

In the Wheeler-Feynman view of it, the emitter sends out an “offer” wave (actually, both an advanced wave and a retarded wave, extending into what we would call the past and future). And the receiver – regardless of possibly being a billion light years away and doing so at what we would call a billion years in the future – sends out an acceptance wave which reaches the emitter. (Regardless that to our perspective the emitter is a billion years in the receiver’s past.)

Due to wave interference, the only remaining pathway is the photon’s path from the emitter to the receiver. Everything else cancels.

The equations involved are exactly the same as usual. It is not a different theory, but a different interpretation of the same equations.

This interpretation does not require an observer to collapse wave functions (though the tautology remains true that an observer can know only of things that are observed.)

And it has the feature you like (or I do, anyway) of the future being an integral part of or at least participant in what occurs.

[quote]asusvenus wrote:

I don’t get literature. I just don’t get it. I’m like, why say something beautiful or elegant when you can say it simple and straight forward?
[/quote]

The good ones do both at the same time.

One theory that I like is that all of the sub atomic particles that we have discovered don’t actually exist. Effectively we create them by looking for them.

Bear in mind that we only know they exist because we go looking for evidence of them. It is not like breaking apart a watch and trying to identify the parts. In particle physics it actually works the other way round. Someone theorises a type of particle then sets up an experimental device to look for evidence of it.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Briefly, many interpret quantum theory in terms of a photon being emitted from an atom (or otherwise) and a wave function goes out with different probabilities of the photon being found in any location, and at some point the wave function is collapsed thanks to a conscious observer.

.[/quote]

I thought it was the act of measuring that caused the problem…the wavelength of light needed to capture the result?

[quote]dbpusher wrote:
Why is the higgs boson important?

Well, it would prove how gravity works. If it is indeed a field that particles drag through, then you could theoretically find a way to negate the mass of an object by having it slip through the higgs field without drag. Reducing mass equals reducing the amount of energy it takes to move that object. That could be one way to interstellar travel. Or you could reduce the weight of a car to allow for exponential increases to fuel economy. Pretty much end all energy dependance. You know, theoretically.
[/quote]

Now that is how you can help the human race.

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Vegita wrote:
Briefly, many interpret quantum theory in terms of a photon being emitted from an atom (or otherwise) and a wave function goes out with different probabilities of the photon being found in any location, and at some point the wave function is collapsed thanks to a conscious observer.

.

I thought it was the act of measuring that caused the problem…the wavelength of light needed to capture the result?[/quote]

The measuring affects the propagation of the advanced wave from the receiver to the emitter.

In this interpretation, not there being a conscious observer aware of the measurement, but the physical means by which the measurement blocked or did not block the advanced wave.

Now this next thing is NOT (so far as I know) what any physicist has had to say about it – with regards to the Cramer intrepretation, that is: of course Feynman discussed it in his treatment of these waves – and a physicist might say that I am being stupid on this point.

But to me an advantage of this interpretation is that it always bugged me, with regard to photons being exchanged between electrons (for example) in order to exert electrostatic repulsion, How the hell does the photon find its way?

The Wheeler-Feynman advanced and retarded wave approach explains that for me. The photon “finds” its way because cancellation results in that being the only path.

I’ve been doing theoretical physics for a few years, and I don’t have a clue what half of that essay was talking about. I should rethink about my career choice…