Basically, I am self taught. I started studying the Bible, as many have, with Strong’s Concordance. I graduated to Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, and various other study materials. Also, I have been very fortunate to have attended a bible study course in our church, held by a Greek Scholar on the “Principles And Practice Of Greek Exegesis.” But without prayer and the teaching of the Holy Spirit, the above helps would not have been useful to their fullness.
[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
I have a question if one of you who know more about this I can answer. When Jesus was being crucified on the cross, didn’t he forgive those who were crucifying him? Even though they denied that he was God’s son, the Lord Christ? If Jesus forgave them without them knowing him for they denied who he was, did they go to heaven? Sorry if these are stupid questions. I am Christian, but I’m not very familiar with the scriptures and therefore have many questions. Most of which the people I ask cannot answer. [/quote]
Hebrews 10:26
“For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.”
Do you know exactly what scripture you are referring to so that I can read the context? Generally speaking, the above scripture helps us to appreciate that if we know something is wrong, but continue to do it, then we won’t be forgiven. However, I don’t want to apply it to your question, without having the scripture and surrounding text as insight.
[/quote]
honest_lifter, I believe the Bible is clear that in Christ we have complete forgiveness of our sins because of what He has done for us. To say that there are sins that “won’t be forgiven” (other than unbelief which can’t be forgiven, has to be repented of) is to say that Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was not complete. I believe He meant what He said from the cross when He said “It is finished!”
Here is my take on Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgement and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.”
The writer is saying that if we deliberately keep on sinning, living in unbelief after we’ve received the knowledge of the truth–the truth of the finality of the cross–there is no sacrifice for sins left. Sinning here doesn’t mean committing adultery or stealing or coveting, what we would call “the filthy five” or “the nasty nine”. The sin the writer of Hebrews is discussing is the deliberate rejection and demeaning of the sacrifice of Christ. The writer was addressing his fellow kinsmen who had heard the truth, yet were continuing to depend on the old covenant ritual of the sacrificial system. To them the blood of bulls and goats was of equal value to the blood of Jesus.
If we reject the sacrifice of Christ, what other sacrifice is there? If Jesus’ wasn’t sufficient or good enough, then there isn’t anything or anyone else to do more. And if you can’t accept His sacrifice for you as sufficient, all you have to look forward to is a fearful expectation of judgement and the raging fire.
Why? Because you are lost. Until you accept and rest in His sacrifice, you can’t be saved.
The next two verses continue in context - Hebrews 10:28-29 “Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of Grace?”[/quote]
Thank you, you have given me a bit more to think about. Your explanation of Hebrews 10:26 answers a lot of my questions. To me Luke 23:35 seemed to contradict some things. If those crucifying Jesus were forgiven even though they denied who he was and they were still granted the gift of heaven didn’t really go along with the rest of my understanding. I thought you had to accept Jesus as the Lord Christ to be forgiven, but they obviously didn’t.[/quote]
Yes, those crucifying Jesus were forgiven, but forgiveness is not salvation. Unless they turned from their unbelief and accepted Jesus at some point in their life they would not go to heaven.
Notice Romans 5:10 that I referenced earlier: “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through His life!” The death of Christ reconciles us to Christ - no more debt owed for our sins, we are forgiven. But the death of Christ does not save us. As the verse goes on to say we are saved by His life. This is when we are born again and the Spirit of God comes to dwell in us.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Remember, no one ascended to heaven before Jesus. See John 3:13. If Sheol/Hades is a place of torment, why did Job, when he was suffering so, want to go to Sheol? - See Job 14:12-15
This part of scripture, if taken literally, is SO different with the rest of the Bible. To believe it as literal would show clear contradictions in the Bible.[/quote]
How do you know? Are you asserting that Jesus did not exist before he was on Earth? Why could this passage not be figurative?
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
You couldn’t be more wrong, hell is a real place where there is real punishment which you feel and it lasts for eternity:
Matthew 13:42 “And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
Matt 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” This passage relates to Jesus’ judgment of all the world.
Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."
Luke 16:24: “And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” (This is a plea described as coming from an inhabitant of Hell).
Revelation 20:13-15: “…hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 21:8: “But the fearful, and unbelieving … shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.”
Matthew 25:46: " And these shall go away into everlasting punishment."
Mark 9:43-48: “…it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched”
Revelation 14:11: " And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night…"
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
MBH, you are correct. If we reject the sacrifice of the Christ, then there is no sacrifice left. I think your reason is sound it a lot of areas.
The part that I would have to disagree with you in what you said is that you are automatically (adding that word, inference i guess, correct me if i am wrong) forgiven for committing such acts as fornication, homosexuality, and other things listed at such places as 1 Cor 6:9,10. I do believe that you CAN be forgiven those things, but it requires that we repent, which would include turning away from those things. We can’t just blatantly disobey the commands spelled out for us in the scripture and just expect forgiveness.[/quote]
“Automatically” isn’t a bad way to put it. Totally, completely, and unconditionally are other good descriptions. To say you don’t have total forgiveness, and that you have to do more to get forgiven, is to say that Jesus’ sacrifice was not sufficient, and is what the writer of Hebrews is saying is equivalent to insulting the Spirit of Grace and treating as unholy the blood of the covenant that sanctified us.
When you say a person must repent and turn away from sins such as fornication, etc, I assume you are saying that person needs to rid themselves of these sins, to stop sinning; and if they don’t stop, they can’t be forgiven? I find no evidence of this in the scriptures.
Consider Hebrews 10:10 “By this will we have been made holy (some say sanctified) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” You either believe that you are made holy by what Jesus has done for you, or the only other option you have is to find a way to make yourself holy and sanctified. So, go ahead and give it your best shot. Do everything you can to get all the sin out of your life, but if you don’t, you are not holy. And if you never accomplish that you have no hope of entering into heaven.
Regarding 1 Cor 6:9,10 - you’ll see in the first verses of chapter 1 Paul is writing to “those who have been sanctified in Christ, saints by calling…” In 6:9,10 Paul is simply saying to the saints to act like who they are, not like who they once were. He is reminding them that fornicators, adulterers, idolaters, etc will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the people he is writing to are not fornicators, adulterers, etc. They are born again children of God with a new identity given to them by Christ, not an identity based on their behavior. In verse 11 he says “And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of God.”
Forgiveness made salvation possible. Salvation is the restoration of the life of God that had been lost in Adam. And the life that we receive will remain with us eternally because there is no sin left that will cause that life to leave (because the wages of sin is death, Rom 6:23). Salvation is because of God’s grace and mercy, not because of what we have done or have not done. This is important because without understanding this a person is not going to believe that the work of God was truly complete on the cross, but that when He died for our sins and rose from the dead there were still a few things left undone, and that is what they now have to do. It now depends on them.
You have to decide. Is what He did on the cross adequate, or do I need to do more? And if you need to do a little more, let me ask, how will you ever know when you’ve done enough? What is a little more? How are you ever going to know? The answer is never, until you go before the Lord and He will tell you if He considers what you did or did not do, and whether it is acceptable or not. But, between now and then it is all up to you; just keep doing the best you can and hope for the best. That is a very sad way of living. Because at no time will you ever be able to be at peace with your God. You’ll never be able to live in a state of rest with your God; never experience rest and peace in your heart.
I sincerely believe that when He died on the cross, He died for the sins of the world, and so He no longer holds any of our sins against us. And if He no longer holds any of our sins against us, then it is true that regardless of what we do or don’t do, our justification still stands on the basis of what He did.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
I think it is figurative, not literal. Where do you feel they were?[/quote]
By what do you determine some passages are literal vs. figurative?[/quote]
There is no set way of determining it. You have to take the context of the scripture. You also have to see if it is in harmony with the rest of the Bible.
The bible doesn’t say that hell is a place of torment. It is just the common grave, where you would be going anyway when you die. No harm no foul.[/quote]
You couldn’t be more wrong, hell is a real place where there is real punishment which you feel and it lasts for eternity:
Matthew 13:42 “And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
Matt 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” This passage relates to Jesus’ judgment of all the world.
Mark 9:43-48: And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched."
Luke 16:24: “And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.” (This is a plea described as coming from an inhabitant of Hell).
Revelation 20:13-15: “…hell delivered up the dead which were in them…And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 21:8: “But the fearful, and unbelieving … shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.”
Matthew 25:46: " And these shall go away into everlasting punishment."
Mark 9:43-48: “…it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched”
Revelation 14:11: " And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night…"
[/quote]
Do you think God would allow humans to suffer eternal torment for just 80 years of bad deeds? How would you reconcile that with the scriptures that say when we die, we are no longer conscious of anything?
Also, with these scriptures, you have to look at the context of them. For one of the scriptures you put, it showed that hell was going into the lake of fire…
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
MBH, you are correct. If we reject the sacrifice of the Christ, then there is no sacrifice left. I think your reason is sound it a lot of areas.
The part that I would have to disagree with you in what you said is that you are automatically (adding that word, inference i guess, correct me if i am wrong) forgiven for committing such acts as fornication, homosexuality, and other things listed at such places as 1 Cor 6:9,10.
I do believe that you CAN be forgiven those things, but it requires that we repent, which would include turning away from those things. We can’t just blatantly disobey the commands spelled out for us in the scripture and just expect forgiveness.[/quote]
“Automatically” isn’t a bad way to put it. Totally, completely, and unconditionally are other good descriptions. To say you don’t have total forgiveness, and that you have to do more to get forgiven, is to say that Jesus’ sacrifice was not sufficient, and is what the writer of Hebrews is saying is equivalent to insulting the Spirit of Grace and treating as unholy the blood of the covenant that sanctified us.
When you say a person must repent and turn away from sins such as fornication, etc, I assume you are saying that person needs to rid themselves of these sins, to stop sinning; and if they don’t stop, they can’t be forgiven? I find no evidence of this in the scriptures.
Consider Hebrews 10:10 “By this will we have been made holy (some say sanctified) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” You either believe that you are made holy by what Jesus has done for you, or the only other option you have is to find a way to make yourself holy and sanctified.
So, go ahead and give it your best shot. Do everything you can to get all the sin out of your life, but if you don’t, you are not holy. And if you never accomplish that you have no hope of entering into heaven.
Regarding 1 Cor 6:9,10 - you’ll see in the first verses of chapter 1 Paul is writing to “those who have been sanctified in Christ, saints by calling…” In 6:9,10 Paul is simply saying to the saints to act like who they are, not like who they once were. He is reminding them that fornicators, adulterers, idolaters, etc will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the people he is writing to are not fornicators, adulterers, etc.
They are born again children of God with a new identity given to them by Christ, not an identity based on their behavior. In verse 11 he says “And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of God.”
Forgiveness made salvation possible. Salvation is the restoration of the life of God that had been lost in Adam. And the life that we receive will remain with us eternally because there is no sin left that will cause that life to leave (because the wages of sin is death, Rom 6:23). Salvation is because of God’s grace and mercy, not because of what we have done or have not done.
This is important because without understanding this a person is not going to believe that the work of God was truly complete on the cross, but that when He died for our sins and rose from the dead there were still a few things left undone, and that is what they now have to do. It now depends on them.
You have to decide. Is what He did on the cross adequate, or do I need to do more? And if you need to do a little more, let me ask, how will you ever know when you’ve done enough? What is a little more? How are you ever going to know? The answer is never, until you go before the Lord and He will tell you if He considers what you did or did not do, and whether it is acceptable or not.
But, between now and then it is all up to you; just keep doing the best you can and hope for the best. That is a very sad way of living. Because at no time will you ever be able to be at peace with your God. You’ll never be able to live in a state of rest with your God; never experience rest and peace in your heart.
I sincerely believe that when He died on the cross, He died for the sins of the world, and so He no longer holds any of our sins against us. And if He no longer holds any of our sins against us, then it is true that regardless of what we do or don’t do, our justification still stands on the basis of what He did.[/quote]
Matthew 6:14,15 - (the model prayer)
"For if YOU forgive men their trespasses, YOUR heavenly Father will also forgive YOU; 15Â whereas if YOU do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will YOUR Father forgive YOUR trespasses.
1 John 5:5-8
5Â And this is the message which we have heard from him and are announcing to YOU, that God is light and there is no darkness at all in union with him. 6Â If we make the statement: “We are having a sharing with him,” and yet we go on walking in the darkness, we are lying and are not practicing the truth. 7Â
However, if we are walking in the light as he himself is in the light, we do have a sharing with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
88Â If we make the statement: “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9Â If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous so as to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10Â If we make the statement: “We have not sinned,” we are making him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1 cor 5:9-13
In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10Â not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world.
11Â But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12Â For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13Â while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”
Hebrews 10:26
26Â For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.
What do these scriptures show to you? To me, I can’t read these scriptures and just assume that no mater what we do we are automatically forgiven. These all say action is required. The sacrifice is there, but it is applied to those who meet the requirements set out by God.
The scripture in 1 cor 6:9,10 says DO NOT BE MISLED. People that practice these things WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM. These sins are overcomeable, because it says “this is what some of you were”. They changed there ways and were counted holy. Now where these perfect people? No, not at all. do these 2 verses include all possible sins? Nope, not even close. But these sins are specifically mentioned in the scriptures, that, if practiced, will mean that one will not be allowed into God’s kingdom.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
Remember, no one ascended to heaven before Jesus. See John 3:13. If Sheol/Hades is a place of torment, why did Job, when he was suffering so, want to go to Sheol? - See Job 14:12-15
This part of scripture, if taken literally, is SO different with the rest of the Bible. To believe it as literal would show clear contradictions in the Bible.[/quote]
How do you know? Are you asserting that Jesus did not exist before he was on Earth? Why could this passage not be figurative?[/quote]
How do I know what? How do I know that no one ascended to heaven? Well, look at that scripture in John 3:13.
In no way am I asserting that Jesus did not exist before he was on Earth.
The passage shows activity after death. The Bible says that when we die we are conscious of nothing. Ecc 9:5.
I have no problem having these discussions. However, you and I are both aware that only those looking are going to be open for change. I am 25, and have been involved in a preaching work for the past 10+ years.
Many people have listened, many people have been perfectly happy where they are. That is a personal choice. There are going to be scriptures in the Bible that can be used out of context and applied to fit any need, we all know that.
I am enjoying the rather civil conversations that we are having and my personal hope is that people see the points I am trying to make. Of course, I have been doing this long enough to know that isn’t possible.
For the most part, we all feel we are right and that is why we are defending our positions.
…I have now proved to you that private interpretation of the Scripture cannot be the guide or teacher of man. In another lecture I shall prove that the Catholic Church is the only true Church of God, and that there is no other.
Questions?[/quote]
As I read it, the premise of this sermon is based on the assumption that an individual’s reading of the Bible will result in erroneous interpretation, and it infers that left to our own all we have is a book to try to figure out through private interpretation.
But God did not leave us to our own. He gave us the Holy Spirit.
I would agree that if we are left to our own without the Holy Spirit we can know what the Bible says, but won’t have a clue what it means. As it says in 1 Cor 2:9-13 (9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But to us God hath revealed them, by this Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God; that we may know the things that are given us from God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the learned words of human wisdom; but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. ) no one can know what God has given us unless His Spirit reveals it to us.
For each of us born again through faith in Jesus Christ we have the Holy Spirit living in us to reveal to us what the Bible means, as we rely on Him and ask Him to reveal the meaning.
[/quote]
I ask, where do you get your understanding that we are ‘born again’ through faith in Jesus Christ. We are born with the Holy Ghost, how would humans, even with using human reason, be able to know the difference between right and wrong? God wrong on our hearts the law, however the Holy Ghost is with which it is transferred and we understand it.
Are you sure that teachers, pastors, and evangelists are gifts, at least all of them are gifts. The world has been tormented by teachers, pastors, and evangelists because people have assumed they are always correct.
I do not even assume that my own priest is a gift of God and that he is always telling me the truth. The fact is that we are all called to spread the word of Jesus, so how come only these people are the vessels of God. I could easily go into seminary and say God has called me to the Holy Orders, yet he has not.
The Holy Ghost does give us revelations, however it gave us more than the Bible.
Okay and he wrote it down and it was called doctrine. However since we cannot determine if someone’s actions are malicious, when someone writes doctrine it cannot just be accepted as doctrine. It has to be tested, God tells us to test all Prophets, therefore the Church’s doctrine is tested as well.
Would you explain why you just pasted these pieces of scripture here. I am not sure if your argument is finished.
[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
I have a question if one of you who know more about this I can answer. When Jesus was being crucified on the cross, didn’t he forgive those who were crucifying him? Even though they denied that he was God’s son, the Lord Christ?
If Jesus forgave them without them knowing him for they denied who he was, did they go to heaven? Sorry if these are stupid questions. I am Christian, but I’m not very familiar with the scriptures and therefore have many questions. Most of which the people I ask cannot answer. [/quote]
The answer is, yes, of course Jesus forgave those who were crucifying Him. At the cross Jesus took away the sins of everyone in the entire world all the way back to Adam and forward to eternity. Every person’s sins are forgiven because of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross.
[/quote]
Be careful of what you speak of. Yes, everyone’s sins are forgiven because of Jesus’ sacrifice on the Cross. However, not everyone’s sins are forgiven.
Are you saying that there is no more sin in the world?
Yes, his forgiveness here is without limit, and without time restrictions. However, you still need to ask for forgiveness and do your penance.
I’m not going to get into anything prolonged, as I hate internet debates. However, I would simply like to pose the following question to the theists of this thread: why do you believe the Bible to be the words of a god?
Also, please explain to me any evidence you are aware of to support the belief in a god.
Again, I’m not interested in internet debate, as I am thoroughly sick of them (I’ve taken part in my fair share). But, I did happen upon this thread (I actually never come in this part of T-Nation), and would like to hear responses to the above.
[quote]Dark_Knight wrote:
I’m not going to get into anything prolonged, as I hate internet debates. However, I would simply like to pose the following question to the theists of this thread: why do you believe the Bible to be the words of a god?
Also, please explain to me any evidence you are aware of to support the belief in a god.
Again, I’m not interested in internet debate, as I am thoroughly sick of them (I’ve taken part in my fair share). But, I did happen upon this thread (I actually never come in this part of T-Nation), and would like to hear responses to the above.[/quote]
This was covered in some other threads. this is a pretty standard question from atheists, however the answer is rather simple: It answers the questions that people have. Now not everyone has found the correct answers, but the answers are in there and they explain the basic questions that everyone has: why we die. why do we suffer. what happens to us when we die. what does the future hold.
Humans have a spiritual need. It has been a part of all human history. The Bible says that that was put into us by God when he made us. Many have repressed that desire nowadays because they are repulsed by what they see around them, but all throughout history cultures from around the world have some sort of religion that they hold sacred.
Obviously I could, and have, gone into much more detail than this, but since you weren’t looking for a debate, this was a really bare bones answer.
I have a question about the 10 commandments, the 2nd one in particular:
“You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.”
Wouldn’t this also apply to paintings, pictures, jewelry, decorations? I’m asking this because I know many Catholics have pendants of Jesus on the cross, and the same goes with many churches. This seems to me like it would be breaking the 2nd commandment so why to they do it? I would appreciate if any of you could offer some insight on this.
[quote]Jason Lee wrote:
I have a question about the 10 commandments, the 2nd one in particular:
“You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.”
Wouldn’t this also apply to paintings, pictures, jewelry, decorations? I’m asking this because I know many Catholics have pendants of Jesus on the cross, and the same goes with many churches. This seems to me like it would be breaking the 2nd commandment so why to they do it? I would appreciate if any of you could offer some insight on this.[/quote]
This is bringing out that no images should be created and used directly in our worship, you are correct. Drawing pictures is fine, but to have images, such as necklaces, jewelry, statue, and to use them directly in worship is wrong and against that 2nd commandment.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
MBH, you are correct. If we reject the sacrifice of the Christ, then there is no sacrifice left. I think your reason is sound it a lot of areas.
The part that I would have to disagree with you in what you said is that you are automatically (adding that word, inference i guess, correct me if i am wrong) forgiven for committing such acts as fornication, homosexuality, and other things listed at such places as 1 Cor 6:9,10.
I do believe that you CAN be forgiven those things, but it requires that we repent, which would include turning away from those things. We can’t just blatantly disobey the commands spelled out for us in the scripture and just expect forgiveness.[/quote]
“Automatically” isn’t a bad way to put it. Totally, completely, and unconditionally are other good descriptions. To say you don’t have total forgiveness, and that you have to do more to get forgiven, is to say that Jesus’ sacrifice was not sufficient, and is what the writer of Hebrews is saying is equivalent to insulting the Spirit of Grace and treating as unholy the blood of the covenant that sanctified us.
When you say a person must repent and turn away from sins such as fornication, etc, I assume you are saying that person needs to rid themselves of these sins, to stop sinning; and if they don’t stop, they can’t be forgiven? I find no evidence of this in the scriptures.
Consider Hebrews 10:10 “By this will we have been made holy (some say sanctified) through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.” You either believe that you are made holy by what Jesus has done for you, or the only other option you have is to find a way to make yourself holy and sanctified.
So, go ahead and give it your best shot. Do everything you can to get all the sin out of your life, but if you don’t, you are not holy. And if you never accomplish that you have no hope of entering into heaven.
Regarding 1 Cor 6:9,10 - you’ll see in the first verses of chapter 1 Paul is writing to “those who have been sanctified in Christ, saints by calling…” In 6:9,10 Paul is simply saying to the saints to act like who they are, not like who they once were. He is reminding them that fornicators, adulterers, idolaters, etc will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the people he is writing to are not fornicators, adulterers, etc.
They are born again children of God with a new identity given to them by Christ, not an identity based on their behavior. In verse 11 he says “And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of God.”
Forgiveness made salvation possible. Salvation is the restoration of the life of God that had been lost in Adam. And the life that we receive will remain with us eternally because there is no sin left that will cause that life to leave (because the wages of sin is death, Rom 6:23). Salvation is because of God’s grace and mercy, not because of what we have done or have not done.
This is important because without understanding this a person is not going to believe that the work of God was truly complete on the cross, but that when He died for our sins and rose from the dead there were still a few things left undone, and that is what they now have to do. It now depends on them.
You have to decide. Is what He did on the cross adequate, or do I need to do more? And if you need to do a little more, let me ask, how will you ever know when you’ve done enough? What is a little more? How are you ever going to know? The answer is never, until you go before the Lord and He will tell you if He considers what you did or did not do, and whether it is acceptable or not.
But, between now and then it is all up to you; just keep doing the best you can and hope for the best. That is a very sad way of living. Because at no time will you ever be able to be at peace with your God. You’ll never be able to live in a state of rest with your God; never experience rest and peace in your heart.
I sincerely believe that when He died on the cross, He died for the sins of the world, and so He no longer holds any of our sins against us. And if He no longer holds any of our sins against us, then it is true that regardless of what we do or don’t do, our justification still stands on the basis of what He did.[/quote]
Matthew 6:14,15 - (the model prayer)
"For if YOU forgive men their trespasses, YOUR heavenly Father will also forgive YOU; 15Ã??Ã? whereas if YOU do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will YOUR Father forgive YOUR trespasses. [/quote]
It’s important to remember that when Jesus was talking about this prayer to His disciples, they were still living under the old covenant–under the law. He hadn’t yet gone to the cross to initiate the new covenant and was still teaching under the old. The new covenant didn’t go into effect until Jesus died, fulfilling the old. “For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.”
Under the old covenant, forgiveness from God was conditional, based on our forgiveness of other people. But after the cross, under the new covenant, Paul tells us in Colossians 3:13, “Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.”
Paul repeats this important truth on forgiveness in Ephesians 4:32, “Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as Christ God forgave you.” Under the old covenant, a person forgave in order to receive forgiveness. Under the new, we forgive because we are forgiven–a new and different motivation of the heart altogether.
As a sidebar on this topic - If I’m clothed with the imputed righteousness of Christ and am standing not in my righteousness but His, why would I be asking Him to cleanse me of unrighteousness? It does not make sense to do that, does it?
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1 John 5:5-8
5Ã??Ã? And this is the message which we have heard from him and are announcing to YOU, that God is light and there is no darkness at all in union with him. 6Ã??Ã? If we make the statement: “We are having a sharing with him,” and yet we go on walking in the darkness, we are lying and are not practicing the truth. 7Ã??Ã?
However, if we are walking in the light as he himself is in the light, we do have a sharing with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
88Ã??Ã? If we make the statement: “We have no sin,” we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9Ã??Ã? If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous so as to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10Ã??Ã? If we make the statement: “We have not sinned,” we are making him a liar, and his word is not in us.[/quote]
The passage you quoted is 1 John 1:5-10, not 5:5-8. Regarding 1 John 1:5-10: Reading 1 John in context, we see that it’s addressing the lost, not the believer. At the time John wrote this letter, about A.D. 90, a heretical group known as the Gnostics had infiltrated the Christian assemblies. The Gnostics believed that all matter is evil, that only spirit is good. Therefore Jesus couldn’t have come in the flesh, because flesh is matter. So they concluded that Jesus was an illusion.
John was addressing this issue in his first letter. Notice how it begins in verse 1: “That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched–this we proclaim concerning the Word of life.” He began the letter this way to dispel this Gnostic heresy that was making the rounds in the churches.
One other paramount teaching of the Gnostics was that man didn’t have a sin nature. And even if he did, it didn’t matter. John addresses this heresy in verses 8 and 10 of 1 John 1 - To the Gnostics John states, “If we [an editorial we] claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us…If we claim we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar and His word has no place in us.” (1 John 1:8,10). In 1 John 1:9, the phrase, “if we confess our sins,” is classified as a third-class conditional clause, which means that the condition stated by the “if” clause is in question. John was not sure whether or not the Gnostics would agree with God concerning their sins and turn to Him for salvation. The Greek structure of this passage forces the following interpretation: “I don’t know if you are ever going to come to your senses or not and agree with God concerning your sins. But, if at anytime–today, tomorrow, or whenever–you should decide to turn to Him, God can be depended upon to have forgiven your sins and to have cleansed you of all unrighteousness.” Notice the past tense.
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1 cor 5:9-13
In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10Ã??Ã? not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world.
11Ã??Ã? But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12Ã??Ã? For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13Ã??Ã? while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”[/quote]
I don’t see where the above verse applies to what we are discussing on the topic of forgiveness. Paul is telling them not to associate with wicked, immoral unbelievers that call themselves brothers and mix among the church; he tells them to remove them.
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Hebrews 10:26
26Ã??Ã? For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.[/quote]
We discussed this one already. This passage is used by legalists to say that you can lose your salvation or that you can backslide. The reality is there is no backslider. There may be someone who has forgotten his total forgiveness and falls back to trust in his obedience to the law to gain God’s favor. In doing this he becomes sin-focused, instead of walking by faith. For example, someone says, “I’ve backslidden. I’ve started sinning all over again.” The reality is he never stopped sinning. Sin, in the Bible, is unbelief. That which is not of faith is sin. What was sin in the Garden of Eden? It wasn’t adultery–no one there to commit it with. There was nothing to steal. Sin in the garden is the same sin that exists throughout the Bible: unbelief. As we’ve discussed, this verse is saying that if we deliberately keep living in unbelief after we’ve received the knowledge of the truth of the finality of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, there is no sacrifice for sins left. If you don’t believe in Jesus’ one and final sacrifice, there is no other sacrifice available to you to take away your sins.
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What do these scriptures show to you? To me, I can’t read these scriptures and just assume that no mater what we do we are automatically forgiven. These all say action is required. The sacrifice is there, but it is applied to those who meet the requirements set out by God.[/quote]
You say “action is required”. Can you give more specifics on the action you are referring to? What specific requirements must we meet?
As I see it, the only action required is to believe, be born again of the Spirit, and become a child of God. John 1:12 “Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God.”
As a child of God, you have an inheritance . It is described in the new covenant. In the old covenant we were under the law. It was like a contract. If you do certain things you are blessed; if you don’t you are cursed. The new covenant is not a contract, it is a will (Heb 9:16-17, Heb 10:10). Under the new covenant He remembers our sins no more, and there is no longer any sacrifice for sins (Heb 8:12, Heb 10:17-18). If you are not a born again child of God you remain under the law and under the wrath of the law; you remain dead (Rom 6:23).
We are to be messengers of the new covenant of grace, not the old covenant of the law (2 Cor 3:6-11, 2 Cor 5:17-19). Under grace we are changed from the inside out, and it is grace that teaches us to say no to ungodliness (Titus 2:11-14). By contrast, the law stirs up sin, and the power of sin is in the law (1 Cor 15:56, Rom 7:5,8, Col 2:20-23). If you want to encourage someone to sin more, then just point your finger at them and tell them they better stop sinnin’ or else they will not be allowed in God’s kingdom.
So, you are saying that these people became sanctified because of their own self effort by overcoming these sins and not practicing them any longer? If that is the case these must be some very holy people that don’t need God; they’ve made themselves holy without Him.
Oh, they’re not perfect? Well, how are they going to get into heaven not being perfect? It only takes one sin and you die. I’m afraid perfection is necessary. Any idea where they can go to be made perfect? (Hint: Heb 10:14 “Because by one sacrifice He has made perfect forever those who are the holy ones.”)
Are you saying these specific sins mentioned are treated differently by God than other sins?
It sounds like if I can work hard enough on certain sins I might need only about 70% of Jesus and the other 30% I can handle on my own. Heck, if I get really good maybe I won’t need any of Jesus. Okay, God, watch my smoke…
Do you not understand that “by observing the law no one will be justified” (Gal 2:16) and “if righteousness could be gained through obedience to the law, Christ died for nothing!” (Gal 2:21) ??
…I have now proved to you that private interpretation of the Scripture cannot be the guide or teacher of man. In another lecture I shall prove that the Catholic Church is the only true Church of God, and that there is no other.
Questions?[/quote]
As I read it, the premise of this sermon is based on the assumption that an individual’s reading of the Bible will result in erroneous interpretation, and it infers that left to our own all we have is a book to try to figure out through private interpretation.
But God did not leave us to our own. He gave us the Holy Spirit.
I would agree that if we are left to our own without the Holy Spirit we can know what the Bible says, but won’t have a clue what it means. As it says in 1 Cor 2:9-13 (9 But, as it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But to us God hath revealed them, by this Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, but the spirit of a man that is in him? So the things also that are of God no man knoweth, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of this world, but the Spirit that is of God; that we may know the things that are given us from God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the learned words of human wisdom; but in the doctrine of the Spirit, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. ) no one can know what God has given us unless His Spirit reveals it to us.
For each of us born again through faith in Jesus Christ we have the Holy Spirit living in us to reveal to us what the Bible means, as we rely on Him and ask Him to reveal the meaning.
[/quote]
I ask, where do you get your understanding that we are ‘born again’ through faith in Jesus Christ. We are born with the Holy Ghost, how would humans, even with using human reason, be able to know the difference between right and wrong? God wrong on our hearts the law, however the Holy Ghost is with which it is transferred and we understand it.[/quote]
John 3:3, John 1:12-13.
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Are you sure that teachers, pastors, and evangelists are gifts, at least all of them are gifts. The world has been tormented by teachers, pastors, and evangelists because people have assumed they are always correct.
I do not even assume that my own priest is a gift of God and that he is always telling me the truth. The fact is that we are all called to spread the word of Jesus, so how come only these people are the vessels of God. I could easily go into seminary and say God has called me to the Holy Orders, yet he has not.
The Holy Ghost does give us revelations, however it gave us more than the Bible.[/quote]
I was referring to Ephesians 4:11.
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Okay and he wrote it down and it was called doctrine. However since we cannot determine if someone’s actions are malicious, when someone writes doctrine it cannot just be accepted as doctrine. It has to be tested, God tells us to test all Prophets, therefore the Church’s doctrine is tested as well.
Would you explain why you just pasted these pieces of scripture here. I am not sure if your argument is finished.[/quote]
Because it is relevant to my preceding discussion about the Holy Spirit, that’s all.