[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]TDub301 wrote:
Typical, a Catholic priest “proving” things through his interpretation of the Bible and not realizing (or blatantly ignoring) how hypocritical he is being. Can’t wait to see how he “proved” that the Catholic church is right and the rest are wrong.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I grew up learning that listening to the Catholic Church is how you learn how to be Holy and develop your religious life for God. Yes, Martin Luther did do the Church good, but even Protestant leaders have not fulfilled all 95 letters of Martin Luther, however the Catholic Church has fulfilled some of those 95 letters.[/quote]
So… since you grew up learning it, that’s why it is true? Playing devil’s advocate here, that is kind of an empty statement. Of course the Catholic church is going to teach you that, just like every other church teaches the equivalent. Then you say that Protestants didn’t fulfull all 95 letters, but continue to state that the Catholics fulfulled some… so you mean that noone has actually fullfilled all of them? right?
Sorry for the rant, I think you guys are doing good work and it is good to talk about this stuff. My problem is that humans are fallable. Humans teach the Bible and also wrote the Bible (inspired or not). So to take one over the other is also a fallacy, really.
The goal is to be as close to accurate as possible. I think you should read and understand the Bible on your own and if you are having confusion, you go to someone to help clear the confusion. And not just one someone, but many, that way you aren’t just getting a single person’s interpretation. From that point, if you truly believe in God and His teachings, you can feel inside your heart what is truly the way God wants you to see His word. That isn’t for someone who is new to Christianity, but for someone who knows God’s teachings well (which comes from reading the Word, preferably different versoins and also learning from a host of different teachers, never just one, unless it is Jesus himself). Just like weightlifting, when you first start out, you have a lot to learn. Once you get to a certain point, if you’re truly committed, you learn to read yourself and do what is right without anyone else’s guidance.
Daniel prayed in his closet, right? I think he set an excellent example. But the corruption in the church, which started from the beginning and still continues on 2000 years later will never die, which is why you can’t completely rely on the teachings of others, have to at least find a healthy balance between the 2.
That’s my 2 cents, take it for what it’s worth and please keep the discussion going[/quote]
Okay, I am sorry but as a lay person, even though I study the Bible and other documents of the Church I would rather go to a well learned Scholar when it came to understanding what to do in a situation.
Here is the situation I have figured out on my own.
Jesus gave us the Church
Jesus said follow the Church that he established through St. Peter.
He said all that did not follow the Church were heretics.
Apostles wrote down what Jesus did and said over the next half decade.
Apostles learned more and wrote more on the Faith over the next 250 years.
The Bible was complete after a few Councils, yet many of them still did not have a Bible, kept preaching the message without a Bible.
So let’s say unofficially the Bible was not put together until 300 something CE, well Jesus never said read the Bible, however he did say listen to his Apostles. So if we believe in the Bible only and that no man has the authority to give us religious wisdom we are basically saying Jesus has deceived us.
So, what the Protestants say is that you only go to Heaven if you 1) believe in Jesus, and 2) you come closer to Jesus through the Bible. Well they are condemning
Another interesting thing to point out is that, if there is absolute truth (which most Christians believe besides Universalitarians) then how can one Protestant say that there is one way to do something and another Protestant says there is another way to do it, obviously one or both of them have to be wrong. As well St. Paul warned us that no Private Interpretation would survive. So out of the 500 Protestant churches to come alive how many have survived, with the original doctrine, and the even the original name?[/quote]
I will agree that Jesus gave us the Church. He gave us the catholic church not the Catholic Church. Some of the first Bishops were part of the Orthodox Church headed in Constantinople. The Catholic Church became Political in nature and tied themselves by claiming apostolic succession from St. Peter. They also Excommunicated the Patricarch of the Orthodox Church. The Patricarch was part of the churches first founded by Paul. The church in Rome did not come about until he was arrested, so claiming that the Catholic Church was first is up to interpretation.
I will also agree that the Bible was passed on by telling the word and not writing it, but once the Bible was written that became the benchmark of all future beliefs and definitions. When you talk of heresy the Bible is the Benchmark. Most Protestants who say follow the Bible and not the Church are decived, and those that beleive that going to Church without reading the Bible are also decieved. You need them both equally. To deny the inspired word of the Lord is also Heresy. The church is the one who brought the word together, so in denying the word you are denying the church.
As you say Jesus said, “listen to the apostles.” The apostles wrote down what Jesus said. Logically to deny the writings of the Apostles is to deny what Jesus said. I listen to the apostles when I read the words that they wrote down.
You also talk about name changes from the begining. Did not St. Peter get a name change from Jesus. Did St. Paul get a name change from Jesus.
I am not trying to say you are wrong, I just want you to think, and not just follow what the Priest says. I have read through the Bible twice and I was given a Catholic Bible for Christmas to read through. I am going to read through the Apocropha books first because I have never read them.
