You really need a study to see that even though the United States could be called “religious” as in 75% of Catholics went to Mass on Sunday, 80% gave time or money to the poor, &c. 50 years ago. The crime rate was down and teen pregnancy was down from what it is now?
I’m sure you can just hit up wiki to figure that out.
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
How does heaven deal with grief?[/quote]
There is no grief in heaven. One may worry about one’s loved ones on earth, but one no longer grieves.[/quote]
One is filled with relief in avoiding Satan’s toasting fork and getting one’s ass flame-grilled for all eternity. One doesn’t grieve about friends and relatives because one shouldn’t have friends or relatives with different beliefs than one’s own. If they do they had it coming.
One is too busy heckling the damned with exclamations of “I told you so” to worry about such trifling earthly emotions as grief and longing. Although it would be nice to be invited to the barbecue on Saturdays at least. The smell of tortured souls is divine. [/quote]
No, there is no joy over those that are damned. The joy is because of the mercy and justice of the Lord.[/quote]
Come on. You’re saying that you wouldn’t be a teensy bit smug? [/quote]
No. Why would I be smug about someone going to hell, as it is said…there but for the grace of G-d, go I.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
How does heaven deal with grief?[/quote]
There is no grief in heaven. One may worry about one’s loved ones on earth, but one no longer grieves.[/quote]
One is filled with relief in avoiding Satan’s toasting fork and getting one’s ass flame-grilled for all eternity. One doesn’t grieve about friends and relatives because one shouldn’t have friends or relatives with different beliefs than one’s own. If they do they had it coming.
One is too busy heckling the damned with exclamations of “I told you so” to worry about such trifling earthly emotions as grief and longing. Although it would be nice to be invited to the barbecue on Saturdays at least. The smell of tortured souls is divine. [/quote]
No, there is no joy over those that are damned. The joy is because of the mercy and justice of the Lord.[/quote]
Come on. You’re saying that you wouldn’t be a teensy bit smug? [/quote]
No. Why would I be smug about someone going to hell, as it is said…there but for the grace of G-d, go I. [/quote]
Well if, as you say, your joy comes from the mercy and justice of the Lord, surely that means you’re both celebrating the fact that justice has been served (i.e those in hell belong there) and enraptured that you have been let into heaven through His mercy. Your joy comes as a result of His actions - mercy and judgement, so without a ‘hell’ to cast sinners into, there’d be nothing to be joyful about.
He could let everybody into paradise, but where’s the justice in that?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
?
The most religious states in the US have the highest teen pregnancy and murder rates.
[/quote]
Yeah…they aren’t religious. Sorry. Come back and show me the teen pregnancy and murder rates in a state where the majority of people go to Church on Sunday…where the majority of the people give time and money to take care of the sick and poor. Claiming something as ‘more’ religious than another state then show that it is screwed up isn’t proof of causation of religion screwing up society. It’s proof your logic is messed up.[/quote]
?
When I say more religious I refer to societies that holds predominately conservative religious beliefs. People in these states have the highest Church attendances as well.
I’m not saying there’s a causal link but there’s definitely a correlation.
Religion hasn’t been doing all the “good” you guys all claim it is.
There are plenty of people and organizations in the secular who take care of the sick and poor.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
You really need a study to see that even though the United States could be called “religious” as in 75% of Catholics went to Mass on Sunday, 80% gave time or money to the poor, &c. 50 years ago. The crime rate was down and teen pregnancy was down from what it is now?
I’m sure you can just hit up wiki to figure that out.[/quote]
A lot of the best run societies today (Scandinavian Countries, Canada, Japan) religiosity has decreased.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I would love to see the studies you’re talking about relating to religion being beneficial to society. I’m interested in knowing the TRUTH. But from mostly what I’ve seen religion has been a major negative to society.[/quote]
It’s extremely difficult to judge exactly how religion negatively affects society. It’s true that extremists have a negative effect, and religion has been used and abused countless times throughout history, but you’ve also got to consider that we wouldn’t be where we are now without it.
Society grew in tandem with religion, it gave us order, so it’s impossible to surgically remove religion from society. You need look no further than the effect religion has had on the legal system for proof of this.
Could we be better off if religion never existed? Unlikely.
So Brother Chris, a guy who is Christian but lives with a nonbelieving family won’t be grieving over never seeing his family agaiin and knowing they’re being demon raped?
He won’t run himself crazy with nightmares of his mom being ripped apart or his little brother being melted?
How is that possible?
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I would love to see the studies you’re talking about relating to religion being beneficial to society. I’m interested in knowing the TRUTH. But from mostly what I’ve seen religion has been a major negative to society.[/quote]
It’s extremely difficult to judge exactly how religion negatively affects society. It’s true that extremists have a negative effect, and religion has been used and abused countless times throughout history, but you’ve also got to consider that we wouldn’t be where we are now without it.
Society grew in tandem with religion, it gave us order, so it’s impossible to surgically remove religion from society. You need look no further than the effect religion has had on the legal system for proof of this.
Could we be better off if religion never existed? Unlikely. [/quote]
Sure it probably helped society around the time it was written. But you run into problems when there are people who believe society should be run as it was 2000 years ago because a book says so.
I would say a lot of things religion has given us secular morality would’ve as well.
I find it absurd that people believe human beings would not have come to the conclusion that something like murder was a horrible act without religion.
Also how important is religion today? Is it all? What benefits does it bring that secular means cannot?
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
How does heaven deal with grief?[/quote]
There is no grief in heaven. One may worry about one’s loved ones on earth, but one no longer grieves.[/quote]
One is filled with relief in avoiding Satan’s toasting fork and getting one’s ass flame-grilled for all eternity. One doesn’t grieve about friends and relatives because one shouldn’t have friends or relatives with different beliefs than one’s own. If they do they had it coming.
One is too busy heckling the damned with exclamations of “I told you so” to worry about such trifling earthly emotions as grief and longing. Although it would be nice to be invited to the barbecue on Saturdays at least. The smell of tortured souls is divine. [/quote]
No, there is no joy over those that are damned. The joy is because of the mercy and justice of the Lord.[/quote]
Come on. You’re saying that you wouldn’t be a teensy bit smug? [/quote]
No. Why would I be smug about someone going to hell, as it is said…there but for the grace of G-d, go I. [/quote]
Well if, as you say, your joy comes from the mercy and justice of the Lord, surely that means you’re both celebrating the fact that justice has been served (i.e those in hell belong there) and enraptured that you have been let into heaven through His mercy. Your joy comes as a result of His actions - mercy and judgement, so without a ‘hell’ to cast sinners into, there’d be nothing to be joyful about.
He could let everybody into paradise, but where’s the justice in that?
[/quote]
Actually every one can go to Heaven, no one has to go to Hell. I’m not a Calvinist…we have free will. Either you accept the wedding invitation or not. The justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell. So do most people including me, the mercy of it all is that even though people might belong in Hell, they’ll end up in Heaven because the Father’s mercy is more bountiful than his justice.
This justice and mercy talks reminds me of the fact that in about a year or so I’ll be getting a Sons of Thunder tattoo designed after the Sons of Anarchy tattoo.
[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
So Brother Chris, a guy who is Christian but lives with a nonbelieving family won’t be grieving over never seeing his family agaiin and knowing they’re being demon raped?
He won’t run himself crazy with nightmares of his mom being ripped apart or his little brother being melted?
How is that possible?[/quote]
I don’t know. It seems strange to me, but the Church teaches that we’d have more knowledge and understanding, we’d be able to understand why exactly those people are in Hell. Yes, hard message is hard.
And, it matters what you mean by non-believing if they’ll be in hell or not.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Also how important is religion today? Is it all? What benefits does it bring that secular means cannot?
[/quote]
Secular means can bring it…they just don’t. This is the point.
This reminds me of my little cousins who asked if they could stay home and pray instead of going to Mass. If it was necessary to miss Mass, then it would be an option. Did they pray? No.
Can people act morally and do the things that religion does without religion? Yes, they could. However, they don’t.
I’m a christian.
I have not read the book from cover to cover…I’m not planing to do so.
I believe in God, but at the moment I’m not a big fan of organized religion.
I had my doubts for quite some time, and there are things we will never be able to explain or prove.
But when I decided to “let go and let god”, something happen to me at that moment I still can’t explain.
It has changed my life…and that is why I believe.
Call it blind faith, call it what you want, but whatever has changed me, that was real!!!
â??Blessed are those who believe without seeing.â?? John 20:29
If you are looking for a role model, why not Jesus?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
How does heaven deal with grief?[/quote]
There is no grief in heaven. One may worry about one’s loved ones on earth, but one no longer grieves.[/quote]
One is filled with relief in avoiding Satan’s toasting fork and getting one’s ass flame-grilled for all eternity. One doesn’t grieve about friends and relatives because one shouldn’t have friends or relatives with different beliefs than one’s own. If they do they had it coming.
One is too busy heckling the damned with exclamations of “I told you so” to worry about such trifling earthly emotions as grief and longing. Although it would be nice to be invited to the barbecue on Saturdays at least. The smell of tortured souls is divine. [/quote]
No, there is no joy over those that are damned. The joy is because of the mercy and justice of the Lord.[/quote]
Come on. You’re saying that you wouldn’t be a teensy bit smug? [/quote]
No. Why would I be smug about someone going to hell, as it is said…there but for the grace of G-d, go I. [/quote]
Well if, as you say, your joy comes from the mercy and justice of the Lord, surely that means you’re both celebrating the fact that justice has been served (i.e those in hell belong there) and enraptured that you have been let into heaven through His mercy. Your joy comes as a result of His actions - mercy and judgement, so without a ‘hell’ to cast sinners into, there’d be nothing to be joyful about.
He could let everybody into paradise, but where’s the justice in that?
[/quote]
Actually every one can go to Heaven, no one has to go to Hell. I’m not a Calvinist…we have free will. Either you accept the wedding invitation or not. The justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell. [/quote] That last part is what I said above. How is it you can remain emotionally unaffected by the fate of the damned (which is what you said a few posts up), when God’s judgement - from which you would derive joy - can only come into force by there being sinners to cast down in the first place?
[quote] So do most people including me, the mercy of it all is that even though people might belong in Hell, they’ll end up in Heaven because the Father’s mercy is more bountiful than his justice.[/quote] Yet “the justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell”…
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I would love to see the studies you’re talking about relating to religion being beneficial to society. I’m interested in knowing the TRUTH. But from mostly what I’ve seen religion has been a major negative to society.[/quote]
It’s extremely difficult to judge exactly how religion negatively affects society. It’s true that extremists have a negative effect, and religion has been used and abused countless times throughout history, but you’ve also got to consider that we wouldn’t be where we are now without it.
Society grew in tandem with religion, it gave us order, so it’s impossible to surgically remove religion from society. You need look no further than the effect religion has had on the legal system for proof of this.
Could we be better off if religion never existed? Unlikely. [/quote]
Sure it probably helped society around the time it was written. But you run into problems when there are people who believe society should be run as it was 2000 years ago because a book says so.
I would say a lot of things religion has given us secular morality would’ve as well.
I find it absurd that people believe human beings would not have come to the conclusion that something like murder was a horrible act without religion.
Also how important is religion today? Is it all? What benefits does it bring that secular means cannot?
[/quote]
Secularism is a pipe dream. You can’t separate religion from society because one influenced the other. As I said, a lot of our laws developed out of religious beliefs. There are aspects of society which are unquestionably flawed, but here’s the kicker: human beings fucked up religion, there is nobody else to blame.
You could theorize about a secularized society and a moral code completely removed from religion, but it only takes a few bad apples to fuck that up as well. And they would.
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
How does heaven deal with grief?[/quote]
There is no grief in heaven. One may worry about one’s loved ones on earth, but one no longer grieves.[/quote]
One is filled with relief in avoiding Satan’s toasting fork and getting one’s ass flame-grilled for all eternity. One doesn’t grieve about friends and relatives because one shouldn’t have friends or relatives with different beliefs than one’s own. If they do they had it coming.
One is too busy heckling the damned with exclamations of “I told you so” to worry about such trifling earthly emotions as grief and longing. Although it would be nice to be invited to the barbecue on Saturdays at least. The smell of tortured souls is divine. [/quote]
No, there is no joy over those that are damned. The joy is because of the mercy and justice of the Lord.[/quote]
Come on. You’re saying that you wouldn’t be a teensy bit smug? [/quote]
No. Why would I be smug about someone going to hell, as it is said…there but for the grace of G-d, go I. [/quote]
Well if, as you say, your joy comes from the mercy and justice of the Lord, surely that means you’re both celebrating the fact that justice has been served (i.e those in hell belong there) and enraptured that you have been let into heaven through His mercy. Your joy comes as a result of His actions - mercy and judgement, so without a ‘hell’ to cast sinners into, there’d be nothing to be joyful about.
He could let everybody into paradise, but where’s the justice in that?
[/quote]
Actually every one can go to Heaven, no one has to go to Hell. I’m not a Calvinist…we have free will. Either you accept the wedding invitation or not. The justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell. [/quote] That last part is what I said above. How is it you can remain emotionally unaffected by the fate of the damned (which is what you said a few posts up), when God’s judgement - from which you would derive joy - can only come into force by there being sinners to cast down in the first place?
[quote] So do most people including me, the mercy of it all is that even though people might belong in Hell, they’ll end up in Heaven because the Father’s mercy is more bountiful than his justice.[/quote] Yet “the justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell”…
[/quote]
I think you missed the second part, where most people justly belong in Hell.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
How does heaven deal with grief?[/quote]
There is no grief in heaven. One may worry about one’s loved ones on earth, but one no longer grieves.[/quote]
One is filled with relief in avoiding Satan’s toasting fork and getting one’s ass flame-grilled for all eternity. One doesn’t grieve about friends and relatives because one shouldn’t have friends or relatives with different beliefs than one’s own. If they do they had it coming.
One is too busy heckling the damned with exclamations of “I told you so” to worry about such trifling earthly emotions as grief and longing. Although it would be nice to be invited to the barbecue on Saturdays at least. The smell of tortured souls is divine. [/quote]
No, there is no joy over those that are damned. The joy is because of the mercy and justice of the Lord.[/quote]
Come on. You’re saying that you wouldn’t be a teensy bit smug? [/quote]
No. Why would I be smug about someone going to hell, as it is said…there but for the grace of G-d, go I. [/quote]
Well if, as you say, your joy comes from the mercy and justice of the Lord, surely that means you’re both celebrating the fact that justice has been served (i.e those in hell belong there) and enraptured that you have been let into heaven through His mercy. Your joy comes as a result of His actions - mercy and judgement, so without a ‘hell’ to cast sinners into, there’d be nothing to be joyful about.
He could let everybody into paradise, but where’s the justice in that?
[/quote]
Actually every one can go to Heaven, no one has to go to Hell. I’m not a Calvinist…we have free will. Either you accept the wedding invitation or not. The justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell. [/quote] That last part is what I said above. How is it you can remain emotionally unaffected by the fate of the damned (which is what you said a few posts up), when God’s judgement - from which you would derive joy - can only come into force by there being sinners to cast down in the first place?
[quote] So do most people including me, the mercy of it all is that even though people might belong in Hell, they’ll end up in Heaven because the Father’s mercy is more bountiful than his justice.[/quote] Yet “the justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell”…
[/quote]
I think you missed the second part, where most people justly belong in Hell.[/quote]
This part? “The justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell”? I quoted it in the last sentence. How do “most people justly belong in Hell” yet “the mercy of it all is that even though people might belong in Hell, they’ll end up in Heaven because the Father’s mercy is more bountiful than his justice”?
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
How does heaven deal with grief?[/quote]
There is no grief in heaven. One may worry about one’s loved ones on earth, but one no longer grieves.[/quote]
One is filled with relief in avoiding Satan’s toasting fork and getting one’s ass flame-grilled for all eternity. One doesn’t grieve about friends and relatives because one shouldn’t have friends or relatives with different beliefs than one’s own. If they do they had it coming.
One is too busy heckling the damned with exclamations of “I told you so” to worry about such trifling earthly emotions as grief and longing. Although it would be nice to be invited to the barbecue on Saturdays at least. The smell of tortured souls is divine. [/quote]
No, there is no joy over those that are damned. The joy is because of the mercy and justice of the Lord.[/quote]
Come on. You’re saying that you wouldn’t be a teensy bit smug? [/quote]
No. Why would I be smug about someone going to hell, as it is said…there but for the grace of G-d, go I. [/quote]
Well if, as you say, your joy comes from the mercy and justice of the Lord, surely that means you’re both celebrating the fact that justice has been served (i.e those in hell belong there) and enraptured that you have been let into heaven through His mercy. Your joy comes as a result of His actions - mercy and judgement, so without a ‘hell’ to cast sinners into, there’d be nothing to be joyful about.
He could let everybody into paradise, but where’s the justice in that?
[/quote]
Actually every one can go to Heaven, no one has to go to Hell. I’m not a Calvinist…we have free will. Either you accept the wedding invitation or not. The justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell. [/quote] That last part is what I said above. How is it you can remain emotionally unaffected by the fate of the damned (which is what you said a few posts up), when God’s judgement - from which you would derive joy - can only come into force by there being sinners to cast down in the first place?
[quote] So do most people including me, the mercy of it all is that even though people might belong in Hell, they’ll end up in Heaven because the Father’s mercy is more bountiful than his justice.[/quote] Yet “the justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell”…
[/quote]
I think you missed the second part, where most people justly belong in Hell.[/quote]
This part? “The justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell”? I quoted it in the last sentence. How do “most people justly belong in Hell” yet “the mercy of it all is that even though people might belong in Hell, they’ll end up in Heaven because the Father’s mercy is more bountiful than his justice”?[/quote]
Confusing, huh? I didn’t get it at first. Didn’t get it for a long time. It’s kind of hard to explain.
Most people are born outside the family, being baptized puts you inside the family or as it is called ‘covenant.’ One can accept or reject the mercy and grace of the Father still and not go to Heaven. People freely choose the mercy and grace or freely choose to reject the mercy and grace.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]roybot wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Ct. Rockula wrote:
How does heaven deal with grief?[/quote]
There is no grief in heaven. One may worry about one’s loved ones on earth, but one no longer grieves.[/quote]
One is filled with relief in avoiding Satan’s toasting fork and getting one’s ass flame-grilled for all eternity. One doesn’t grieve about friends and relatives because one shouldn’t have friends or relatives with different beliefs than one’s own. If they do they had it coming.
One is too busy heckling the damned with exclamations of “I told you so” to worry about such trifling earthly emotions as grief and longing. Although it would be nice to be invited to the barbecue on Saturdays at least. The smell of tortured souls is divine. [/quote]
No, there is no joy over those that are damned. The joy is because of the mercy and justice of the Lord.[/quote]
Come on. You’re saying that you wouldn’t be a teensy bit smug? [/quote]
No. Why would I be smug about someone going to hell, as it is said…there but for the grace of G-d, go I. [/quote]
Well if, as you say, your joy comes from the mercy and justice of the Lord, surely that means you’re both celebrating the fact that justice has been served (i.e those in hell belong there) and enraptured that you have been let into heaven through His mercy. Your joy comes as a result of His actions - mercy and judgement, so without a ‘hell’ to cast sinners into, there’d be nothing to be joyful about.
He could let everybody into paradise, but where’s the justice in that?
[/quote]
Actually every one can go to Heaven, no one has to go to Hell. I’m not a Calvinist…we have free will. Either you accept the wedding invitation or not. The justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell. [/quote] That last part is what I said above. How is it you can remain emotionally unaffected by the fate of the damned (which is what you said a few posts up), when God’s judgement - from which you would derive joy - can only come into force by there being sinners to cast down in the first place?
[quote] So do most people including me, the mercy of it all is that even though people might belong in Hell, they’ll end up in Heaven because the Father’s mercy is more bountiful than his justice.[/quote] Yet “the justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell”…
[/quote]
I think you missed the second part, where most people justly belong in Hell.[/quote]
This part? “The justice is that those in Hell justly belong in Hell”? I quoted it in the last sentence. How do “most people justly belong in Hell” yet “the mercy of it all is that even though people might belong in Hell, they’ll end up in Heaven because the Father’s mercy is more bountiful than his justice”?[/quote]
Confusing, huh? I didn’t get it at first. Didn’t get it for a long time. It’s kind of hard to explain.
Most people are born outside the family, being baptized puts you inside the family or as it is called ‘covenant.’ One can accept or reject the mercy and grace of the Father still and not go to Heaven. People freely choose the mercy and grace or freely choose to reject the mercy and grace.[/quote]
It wasn’t confusing to me; it just didn’t make sense. Throw in Ct. Rockula’s last post and your response to it and it made even less sense. That last reply of yours to me doesn’t explain divine justice (actually closer to divine injustice), nor does it reconcile two very conflicting quotes that you wrote. The ones I didn’t miss because I underlined them.