Thanksgiving, My How Things have Changed:

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
81

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m talking about the United States and our meteoric rise when the populous was of such an ascendant character that they elected men like Washington and rejoiced in messages like the one I posted and the sick perverted violent whorehouse that she is today and sliding further all the time. I will say and stand behind for the ten thousandth time. Every single last problem this country is sinking under is directly spawned by the destruction of the Judeo-Christian ethic as outwardly manifest in the faithful family consisting of one man and one woman with their children for life. EVERY LAST ONE.

For this porcupine guy. I will go so far as to say that a very large segment of blacks in this nation are no better off and in some ways are far worse off under soft socialist slavery v.2.0 today than they were under bodily slavery and oppression in the south. That will be utterly lost on someone like you because gravity of character and strength of heart are foreign concepts in your world beyond an obligatory snippet. It’s tragic, but right in line with the trajectory of the nation especially since the 60’s.[/quote]

Was it really all that better?
[/quote]

Yeah actually if you’re talking about crime it was just about 50% better in 1950 (according to US Justice Department statistics) than it is today. Every other category that I posted was better then too. Morally, the US was a far more moral nation 50-60 years ago than it is today. But certainly it was far from perfect with problems of its own.

The main reason for this I believe is that they had God as the center piece of their lives. One can say that we don’t need God, but morally what is he replaced with? Each persons notion of what is good and bad? And even if it is good when and where is it being reinforced, such as can be done in a Church or Synagogue.

Yeah, we were a better people 50-60 years ago and the facts back me up on this.

82

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m talking about the United States and our meteoric rise when the populous was of such an ascendant character that they elected men like Washington and rejoiced in messages like the one I posted and the sick perverted violent whorehouse that she is today and sliding further all the time. I will say and stand behind for the ten thousandth time. Every single last problem this country is sinking under is directly spawned by the destruction of the Judeo-Christian ethic as outwardly manifest in the faithful family consisting of one man and one woman with their children for life. EVERY LAST ONE.

For this porcupine guy. I will go so far as to say that a very large segment of blacks in this nation are no better off and in some ways are far worse off under soft socialist slavery v.2.0 today than they were under bodily slavery and oppression in the south. That will be utterly lost on someone like you because gravity of character and strength of heart are foreign concepts in your world beyond an obligatory snippet. It’s tragic, but right in line with the trajectory of the nation especially since the 60’s.[/quote]

Was it really all that better?
[/quote]

Yeah actually if you’re talking about crime it was just about 50% better in 1950 (according to US Justice Department statistics) than it is today. Every other category that I posted was better then too. Morally, the US was a far more moral nation 50-60 years ago than it is today. But certainly it was far from perfect with problems of its own.

The main reason for this I believe is that they had God as the center piece of their lives. One can say that we don’t need God, but morally what is he replaced with? Each persons notion of what is good and bad? And even if it is good when and where is it being reinforced, such as can be done in a Church or Synagogue.

Yeah, we were a better people 50-60 years ago and the facts back me up on this.[/quote]

You do realise there are twice as many people in the USA now than in 1950?

So, by percentage, crime did not rise.

83

ephrem,

Given that ZEB refuses to acknowledge the hidden premise of his enthymeme I doubt he will be persuaded by such points, whatever their soundness.

84

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m talking about the United States and our meteoric rise when the populous was of such an ascendant character that they elected men like Washington and rejoiced in messages like the one I posted and the sick perverted violent whorehouse that she is today and sliding further all the time. I will say and stand behind for the ten thousandth time. Every single last problem this country is sinking under is directly spawned by the destruction of the Judeo-Christian ethic as outwardly manifest in the faithful family consisting of one man and one woman with their children for life. EVERY LAST ONE.

For this porcupine guy. I will go so far as to say that a very large segment of blacks in this nation are no better off and in some ways are far worse off under soft socialist slavery v.2.0 today than they were under bodily slavery and oppression in the south. That will be utterly lost on someone like you because gravity of character and strength of heart are foreign concepts in your world beyond an obligatory snippet. It’s tragic, but right in line with the trajectory of the nation especially since the 60’s.[/quote]

Was it really all that better?
[/quote]

Yeah actually if you’re talking about crime it was just about 50% better in 1950 (according to US Justice Department statistics) than it is today. Every other category that I posted was better then too. Morally, the US was a far more moral nation 50-60 years ago than it is today. But certainly it was far from perfect with problems of its own.

The main reason for this I believe is that they had God as the center piece of their lives. One can say that we don’t need God, but morally what is he replaced with? Each persons notion of what is good and bad? And even if it is good when and where is it being reinforced, such as can be done in a Church or Synagogue.

Yeah, we were a better people 50-60 years ago and the facts back me up on this.[/quote]

You do realise there are twice as many people in the USA now than in 1950?

So, by percentage, crime did not rise.[/quote]

The Bureau of Justice Statistics has a great chart which shows how crime rose from 1950 to 2005. For example they have one chart that indicates homicides were 4.6 per 100,000 in 1950. Fast forward to 2005 and that figure is 5.6 per 100,000. That is of course just one category but crime in 2005 (and after up to this year) has gotten progressively worse.

I wish this were not true, but it is and I know why.

85

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
ephrem,

Given that ZEB refuses to acknowledge the hidden premise of his enthymeme I doubt he will be persuaded by such points, whatever their soundness.[/quote]

Too bad that wasn’t so sound huh? The fact is just about every gauge of morality is worse now than 60 years ago. The facts back up my argument, or I would not have made such a stand.

Try again.

86

You guys are not going about this correctly. You will never beat me on the facts. What you have to do is point out that there is no way that I can prove that we are worse off morally today because we’ve thrown God out of our schools and less people are now attending Church. You see that would be difficult for me to prove as there “seems” to be no cause and affect. However, if you continue in your attempt to claim that crime, teen pregnancy, drug use, alcoholism, obesity etc, is not worse today you lose badly.

87

Although I wouldn’t put it so crudely, that’s been one of my two main points this whole thread: (1) We’re not worse off overall, even if we worse off in terms of crime, drug use and promiscuity, and (2) even if we are, you still have to support some kind of counter factual claim that somehow relates a fall in morality with a general shift away from God. (And another complication: although I don’t think the issue is so straightforward, what if someone denies that some of things you call immoral—promiscuity, for example—actually are immoral?) I have been going about this correctly—I’ve been trying to pull your vague and imprecise claims apart into precise claims and show that once made precise you actually have lots of hidden assumptions. Up until this last post all you’ve done is reply is throw back those same vague and imprecise claims and mindless shouting about ``facts.‘’

What makes what you’re doing so frustrating is that you’re running together a number of separate issues and bringing a host of unacknowledged assumptions to the debate.

88

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I’m talking about the United States and our meteoric rise when the populous was of such an ascendant character that they elected men like Washington and rejoiced in messages like the one I posted and the sick perverted violent whorehouse that she is today and sliding further all the time. I will say and stand behind for the ten thousandth time. Every single last problem this country is sinking under is directly spawned by the destruction of the Judeo-Christian ethic as outwardly manifest in the faithful family consisting of one man and one woman with their children for life. EVERY LAST ONE.

For this porcupine guy. I will go so far as to say that a very large segment of blacks in this nation are no better off and in some ways are far worse off under soft socialist slavery v.2.0 today than they were under bodily slavery and oppression in the south. That will be utterly lost on someone like you because gravity of character and strength of heart are foreign concepts in your world beyond an obligatory snippet. It’s tragic, but right in line with the trajectory of the nation especially since the 60’s.[/quote]

Was it really all that better?
[/quote]

Yeah actually if you’re talking about crime it was just about 50% better in 1950 (according to US Justice Department statistics) than it is today. Every other category that I posted was better then too. Morally, the US was a far more moral nation 50-60 years ago than it is today. But certainly it was far from perfect with problems of its own.

The main reason for this I believe is that they had God as the center piece of their lives. One can say that we don’t need God, but morally what is he replaced with? Each persons notion of what is good and bad? And even if it is good when and where is it being reinforced, such as can be done in a Church or Synagogue.

Yeah, we were a better people 50-60 years ago and the facts back me up on this.[/quote]

You do realise there are twice as many people in the USA now than in 1950?

So, by percentage, crime did not rise.[/quote]

The Bureau of Justice Statistics has a great chart which shows how crime rose from 1950 to 2005. For example they have one chart that indicates homicides were 4.6 per 100,000 in 1950. Fast forward to 2005 and that figure is 5.6 per 100,000. That is of course just one category but crime in 2005 (and after up to this year) has gotten progressively worse.

I wish this were not true, but it is and I know why.
[/quote]

Wow zeb, one full point. That’s significant man, that absolutely justifies your whining.

Just when i thought you couldn’t get any lower you do this… AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!

/s

89

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
Although I wouldn’t put it so crudely, that’s been one of my two main points this whole thread: (1) We’re not worse off overall, even if we worse off in terms of crime, drug use and promiscuity, and (2) even if we are, you still have to support some kind of counter factual claim that somehow relates a fall in morality with a general shift away from God. (And another complication: although I don’t think the issue is so straightforward, what if someone denies that some of things you call immoral—promiscuity, for example—actually are immoral?) I have been going about this correctly—I’ve been trying to pull your vague and imprecise claims apart into precise claims and show that once made precise you actually have lots of hidden assumptions. Up until this last post all you’ve done is reply is throw back those same vague and imprecise claims and mindless shouting about ``facts.‘’

What makes what you’re doing so frustrating is that you’re running together a number of separate issues and bringing a host of unacknowledged assumptions to the debate. [/quote]

Somehow, 60 years ago, people did not frequent prostitutes, did not use drugs, did not beat and cheat on their spouses, did not have abortions, were not racist, bigotted and ignorant.

Somehow, during this very short instance in the history of mankind, society was near perfect.

sigh

90

maybe this change that have occurad the last 50-60years is caused by something else than a shift in morals?

91

Consumerism.

92

[quote]ephrem wrote:
<<< Five Points, Manhattan - Wikipedia

Was it really all that better?
[/quote]Yes it was. What was once viewed as abhorrent depraved largely localized deviancy by the country at large is now yawned at by 10 year olds over a bowl of cheerios. There has always and everywhere been sin Eph and always will be while this age endures.

@ Porcupine dood again. My better sense is telling me that you are wholly ill equipped to grasp any answers I might give. It has nothing to do with intelligence as I see you are certainly that. I have to go for now, but maybe I’ll dig up one of my many long boring treatise here addressing your standard objections for the 100th time.

Don’t feel bad… I don’t. I can count on one hand the people on this site who agree with me which pretty much scores as a ringing endorsement in my view. I know how arrogant that sounded. Forgive me though I really don’t exactly mean it that way.

93

[quote]ZEB wrote:
You guys are not going about this correctly. You will never beat me on the facts. What you have to do is point out that there is no way that I can prove that we are worse off morally today because we’ve thrown God out of our schools and less people are now attending Church. You see that would be difficult for me to prove as there “seems” to be no cause and affect. However, if you continue in your attempt to claim that crime, teen pregnancy, drug use, alcoholism, obesity etc, is not worse today you lose badly.

[/quote]

Good.

Provide a number.

If todays morality is 100, what is the number for the 13th of march 1954.

If you cannot do that, I am afraid that I have to call bullshit.

94

Also, Japan has, and probably alsways had, lower crime numbers than the US.

I guess that means that Shintoism is the way to go, Christianity is clearly inferior.

95

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
you still have to support some kind of counter factual claim that somehow relates a fall in morality with a general shift away from God.[/quote]

You’re welcome, anything else I can help you with?

According to the Christian Bible they are in fact immoral. (Remember that I’m making a case that we turned south right after we threw God out of the schools and Church attendance was reduced.)

You’ve been going about it the way any other secular humanist would I suppose. That is denying the truth and hanging your argument on the fact that we don’t have slavery anymore (hey yes that is a great thing) But over all - Not compelling enough to say that we are better off now than then morally.

I was very precise. I gave you a list of what is morally wrong today that was not as bad as 60 years ago. You could not refute it. That was pretty much the end of it for me. We’re just dragging this on because that’s what we do on a message board, we type and post and type and post. It’s nauseating actually. (yawn)

Then why don’t you just explain how each is different and none are related to a society that is not more immoral today than 60 years ago.

I’d love to hear your explanation, as you know I am convinced that I am correct and nothing that you or anyone else has posted has even caused me to question my assumptions which are based upon facts.

96

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]stokedporcupine8 wrote:
Although I wouldn’t put it so crudely, that’s been one of my two main points this whole thread: (1) We’re not worse off overall, even if we worse off in terms of crime, drug use and promiscuity, and (2) even if we are, you still have to support some kind of counter factual claim that somehow relates a fall in morality with a general shift away from God. (And another complication: although I don’t think the issue is so straightforward, what if someone denies that some of things you call immoral—promiscuity, for example—actually are immoral?) I have been going about this correctly—I’ve been trying to pull your vague and imprecise claims apart into precise claims and show that once made precise you actually have lots of hidden assumptions. Up until this last post all you’ve done is reply is throw back those same vague and imprecise claims and mindless shouting about ``facts.‘’

What makes what you’re doing so frustrating is that you’re running together a number of separate issues and bringing a host of unacknowledged assumptions to the debate. [/quote]

Somehow, 60 years ago, people did not frequent prostitutes, did not use drugs, did not beat and cheat on their spouses, did not have abortions, were not racist, bigotted and ignorant.

Somehow, during this very short instance in the history of mankind, society was near perfect.

sigh[/quote]

Why do you use straw man arguments? I never said things were perfect. You will never find perfection in terms of human beings, on this earth.

If you really want to be relevant go to work on the long list of statistics that I’ve posted and try to prove me wrong. You tried with the crime stat and you were incorrect. Now try to look up some statistics that show that there were more teen pregnancy’s, more alcoholism, more drug abuse, more obesity, more crime 60 years ago.

This should be easy if I’m wrong. But if I’m right just say so and we’ll move on. I am right once in a while you know…come on man :wink:

97

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Consumerism.[/quote]

LOL

98

[quote]orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
You guys are not going about this correctly. You will never beat me on the facts. What you have to do is point out that there is no way that I can prove that we are worse off morally today because we’ve thrown God out of our schools and less people are now attending Church. You see that would be difficult for me to prove as there “seems” to be no cause and affect. However, if you continue in your attempt to claim that crime, teen pregnancy, drug use, alcoholism, obesity etc, is not worse today you lose badly.

If todays morality is 100, what is the number for the 13th of march 1954.

If you cannot do that, I am afraid that I have to call bullshit.

[/quote]

LOL, I don’t mind you can call whatever you’d like. I defy you to find even one stat that I’ve posted that is morally better today than in 1950. For example, if you think that drug abuse was higher in 1950 than today just check the crime stats as I did and you’ll be surprised.

99

[quote]orion wrote:
Also, Japan has, and probably alsways had, lower crime numbers than the US.

I guess that means that Shintoism is the way to go, Christianity is clearly inferior.

[/quote]

Post them or I’m calling bullshit…Ha ha no no, kidding. I am commenting on our culture. Well not your culture but the culture of the US.

100

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:
Also, Japan has, and probably alsways had, lower crime numbers than the US.

I guess that means that Shintoism is the way to go, Christianity is clearly inferior.

[/quote]

Post them or I’m calling bullshit…Ha ha no no, kidding. I am commenting on our culture. Well not your culture but the culture of the US.
[/quote]

Whether or not it’s the US culture doesn’t matter, orion’s point is still relevant. You claim (among other things) that a lack of belief in Christianity is the cause of America’s increase in petty violent crime, drug use and sexual promiscuity. Presumably this claim is based on some premise like ``Those without God tend to commit petty violent crime, use drugs and be sexually promiscuous.‘’ (If not, then just what is the premise?) Orion’s example is a counter example to this assumed premise. So . . . If you’re so sure that it’s a movement away from Christianity that has caused the rise in America in violent crime, drug use and sexual promiscuity, why aren’t the largely non-Christian Japanese not also swamped with those ills?