[quote]KrohDaddi wrote:
striking someone for defying you is an ethically-indefensible position
if the only harm is to your pride, all you are teaching them is that the world is a power-and-domination game of master-and-slave
the only wound is to your narcissistic ego
(the only scenario i can come up with that would allow for it would be one where they are distracting you from doing some necessary thing like running back into a burning building to get someone else and you can’t because they refuse to follow instructions and their disobedience is risking other lives)
if there is no sense of urgency, it doesn’t have to be resolved in 5 seconds
you should be able to think something up when you are cool-headed
is not defensible but understandable to lose temper if they do something negligent that could do great harm to others
but is a flaw and not something to brag about as though it were proof of responsible parenting[/quote]
The only way to think this way is to consider a child and parent entirely separate beings, but they aren’t. It is not a master/slave relationship if it’s your child. The only way to live like you are mentioning (no longer slaves) is to make it to where children are emancipated from their parents and to remove all legal authority and responsibility from the parents. Fortunately we live in a world where the parent child relationship is honored. The parent can’t leave the child out hungry in the rain and gets to tell the kid what to do within reason.
[quote]KrohDaddi wrote:
striking someone for defying you is an ethically-indefensible position
if the only harm is to your pride, all you are teaching them is that the world is a power-and-domination game of master-and-slave
the only wound is to your narcissistic ego
(the only scenario i can come up with that would allow for it would be one where they are distracting you from doing some necessary thing like running back into a burning building to get someone else and you can’t because they refuse to follow instructions and their disobedience is risking other lives)
if there is no sense of urgency, it doesn’t have to be resolved in 5 seconds
you should be able to think something up when you are cool-headed
is not defensible but understandable to lose temper if they do something negligent that could do great harm to others
but is a flaw and not something to brag about as though it were proof of responsible parenting[/quote]
you sir, are a babbling, incoherent wack job.
Wait, that was unfair. I apologize.
you sir, are a babbling, incoherent NUT job. [/quote]
I was actually going to attempt to frame a considered response to KD’s, Ahem, opinion, which reminds me of some bullshit that I might have spouted in my mid-teens thinking I was being profound.
However, on second thought I think TBG pretty much covers it.
[quote]Ambugaton wrote:
This is something I’ve been wondering awhile, and as I’m not a parent I have no idea what the answer is: is it possible to raise a child in such a way that physical discipline will never be necessary? Can you make them rational enough that you can explain what they did wrong and that they should never do it again? Don’t get me wrong, I took my whoopin’s, and in retrospect I’m glad that I did. At the same time I think every child is different and that some are more sensitive to those things than others. Fathers and mothers, help me out here.[/quote]
The MAIN use of corporal punishment should be in response to defiance on the part of the child. Willful, blatant, disobedient defiance.
AND
Matters of personal safety (e.g., a child that continues to wander out in the street into traffic).[/quote]
Very well said.
I went back and forth on this subject (as you know) and struggle with it and frankly, although I’m horrified at the thought of using physical punishment out of anger, I have decided that defiance simply cannot be tolerated - for the child’s overall well-being and, potential safety issues. [/quote]
Agreed. making a mess on the floor is not equivalent to running into street. One is just a mess that is easily cleaned up, the other is death.
[quote]KrohDaddi wrote:
striking someone for defying you is an ethically-indefensible position
if the only harm is to your pride, all you are teaching them is that the world is a power-and-domination game of master-and-slave
the only wound is to your narcissistic ego
(the only scenario i can come up with that would allow for it would be one where they are distracting you from doing some necessary thing like running back into a burning building to get someone else and you can’t because they refuse to follow instructions and their disobedience is risking other lives)
if there is no sense of urgency, it doesn’t have to be resolved in 5 seconds
you should be able to think something up when you are cool-headed
is not defensible but understandable to lose temper if they do something negligent that could do great harm to others
but is a flaw and not something to brag about as though it were proof of responsible parenting[/quote]
The only way to think this way is to consider a child and parent entirely separate beings, but they aren’t. It is not a master/slave relationship if it’s your child. The only way to live like you are mentioning (no longer slaves) is to make it to where children are emancipated from their parents and to remove all legal authority and responsibility from the parents. Fortunately we live in a world where the parent child relationship is honored. The parent can’t leave the child out hungry in the rain and gets to tell the kid what to do within reason.[/quote]
Good post, DD
I hope the day never comes when children are completely emancipated from their parents, because if it does, you know the government will step in to provide the parenting – just like in the novel Brave New World. (And it probably wouldn’t even work as “well” as it did in the book, given the government’s general incompetence!)
That said, there must be some reasonable limits imposed on a parent’s authority. Obviously you can’t waterboard your kid.
[quote]KrohDaddi wrote:
striking someone for defying you is an ethically-indefensible position
if the only harm is to your pride, all you are teaching them is that the world is a power-and-domination game of master-and-slave
the only wound is to your narcissistic ego
(the only scenario i can come up with that would allow for it would be one where they are distracting you from doing some necessary thing like running back into a burning building to get someone else and you can’t because they refuse to follow instructions and their disobedience is risking other lives)
if there is no sense of urgency, it doesn’t have to be resolved in 5 seconds
you should be able to think something up when you are cool-headed
is not defensible but understandable to lose temper if they do something negligent that could do great harm to others
but is a flaw and not something to brag about as though it were proof of responsible parenting[/quote]
The only way to think this way is to consider a child and parent entirely separate beings, but they aren’t. It is not a master/slave relationship if it’s your child. The only way to live like you are mentioning (no longer slaves) is to make it to where children are emancipated from their parents and to remove all legal authority and responsibility from the parents. Fortunately we live in a world where the parent child relationship is honored. The parent can’t leave the child out hungry in the rain and gets to tell the kid what to do within reason.[/quote]
Good post, DD
I hope the day never comes when children are completely emancipated from their parents, because if it does, you know the government will step in to provide the parenting – just like in the novel Brave New World. (And it probably wouldn’t even work as “well” as it did in the book, given the government’s general incompetence!)
That said, there must be some reasonable limits imposed on a parent’s authority. Obviously you can’t waterboard your kid.
[/quote]
There ARE limits. Each State has child abuse and neglect laws.
…Children one’s drain energy, finances, time and patience…
[/quote]
FWIW, this ^ did not apply to me. It was a pleasure to raise our kids. I enjoyed it. It took all of what you mentioned above but it was not “draining.”
And we homeschooled our kids through the 8th grade.[/quote]
I describe kids as ‘the biggest pain in the ass you will ever love’. I have been called lots of bad stuff in my life, but the best thing I have ever been called is ‘Daddy’. I would never give up being a parent. And if anybody fucks with my kids I’ll kill’em with my bare hands. The only time I spank is blatant disrespect or safety. Physical punishment is and never has been a tool for behavior modification. The human psyche isn’t wired that way.
All it is a use of force to establish dominance. If your kid doesn’t understand whose boss, you do have to show them. But a spanking isn’t horse whipping the shit out of your kids. It’s a few whacks on the butt, enough to get attention not cause pain. Sometimes it’s the only way. If your kid is dominant, your house is dysfunctional. An unhealthy dysfunction, not ‘normal’ dysfunction. If you find you are whacking your kids all the time, you doing some thing wrong. Usually, it’s letting problems escalate until there’re out of control then it’s to late to ‘fix’ it.
You really have to be a parent to understand a fine line. You can’t let your kid pull your hair, or pinch your or some shit like that and let them get away with it. They do that, you have to whack’em.
They way I have found is you don’t have to hit hard at all, just make a lot of noise. It tricks them in to thinking it’s hard when your really just barley harder than a pat.
If they didn’t drain parents patience, there would be no reason to use corporal punishment and child abuse would be virtually unheard of…
[/quote]
You don’t spank a child because your patience has been drained; you spank them for training purposes - to make them better human beings.
Good grief.
[/quote]
How does teaching a child violence result in a better human?[/quote]
You confuse a spank with the horse whipping on the video. A real proper spanking isn’t a violent act… Most of the time it’s actually kid of funny, because the kids are over reacting, cause your barley touching them…
If your kid is being hugely disrespectful and nasty, back talking or bullying, a lesson only spanking can teach them is humility, and teaching them whose boss.
Don’t think for a second your kids won’t exploit every nook and cranny they can and get away with anything they can if you let them. They back talk, you smack their mouths, they stop. You should only have to do this a few times in your life.
Like I said if you find you are whacking your kids all the time, there are other issues going on and it’s usually the parent not the kids who is the problem.
But if you have running submissive to a 7 year old and you are crying because they are out of control, then that’s just as big a problem. If you can’t control a 7 year old then your an idiot and a pussy. It’s just not that hard.
Some parents try to claim that they only spank after they have clammed down.
I just don’t buy it.
Like I said earlier, children crave boundaries and consistency. Being consistent in the dicsipline of the boundaries can be tiring on a parent. I believe that this is when the parents break down and spank.
[/quote]
Time to step away from the plate, Mitz. You can’t make sound, valid judgments about something of which you know little from actual hands-on experience.
You’re the 5’11", 155 lbs kid who’s been to the gym all of a few months and read some Flex magazines and is now on the bodybuilding forum trying to tell everyone how to gain mass and strength.[/quote]
Okay then, anywone here with kids want to chime in on how it is that only lazy parents resort to spanking then?[/quote]
I was the opposite of the lazy parent and I spanked my kids.
And I’d do it all over again if I had to do it again.[/quote]
I’m sorry that you felt the need to hurt your children.[/quote]
We’ll see when you have your own kids. You have no idea what you are talking about.
[quote]Ambugaton wrote:
This is something I’ve been wondering awhile, and as I’m not a parent I have no idea what the answer is: is it possible to raise a child in such a way that physical discipline will never be necessary? Can you make them rational enough that you can explain what they did wrong and that they should never do it again? Don’t get me wrong, I took my whoopin’s, and in retrospect I’m glad that I did. At the same time I think every child is different and that some are more sensitive to those things than others. Fathers and mothers, help me out here.[/quote]
I am a father, although our daughter is still very young (2) and I also do some volunteering with kids (not at all the same as parenting but still somewhat relevant). Regarding “making” children rational, children (and most adults) are inherently irrational beings IMO, so while explaining the reasoning behind consequences etc. is essential, I believe that some system of reward and punishment will always be necessary. Logical discourse just won’t get it done.
Whether corporal punishment is necessary or even productive, I don’t know (although I am inclined against it myself). However one does need some way of creating “pain” for modifying behaviour but every child(person) is unique and will respond differently. There is a whole other thread about this where everyone (particularly TBG and HG) goes fairly in depth into both pro and con lines of reasoning. This thread is actually pretty redundant IMO, given the length/depth of the other (and yet I’m still reading/posting, go figure).[/quote]
They aren’t much more ‘reasonable’ older than they are at 2. Kids will exploit every angle they can…
If your kids grow up well behaved and respectful there is no need to spank them ever. The only thing it’s good for is establishing pecking order. Once that’s understood there is no need.
Beating the shit our of your kids every time they do something wrong is a wholly ineffective tool for modifying behavior. But it is an effective tool for establishing authority and you cannot discount the importance of that. If your kids don’t respect you and listen to you it could get them killed. This ain’t a joke. If you tell them “Don’t go near the road”, but they have no respect for you, you could be attending their funeral.
Letting your kids run you house is a damaging and dangerous thing for them, too. It’s not the way the world works. You’re setting them up for failure. Balance is what’s needed.
[quote]StevenF wrote:
Thank you push. I firmly believe if spanking is done correctly you shouldn’t even have to do it more than a handful of times. The threat of getting spanked should suffice. [/quote]
Yup. It shouldn’t take more than a few. If it does something else is going on and that needs to be investigated.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
^
Personally I find that being a parent necessitates getting drunk, pretty much nightly. It just makes it much more difficult to go out to do so. [/quote]
I saw a shirt one time that said “Daddy drinks because you cry” I laughed so hard…I should have bought it.
Erasmus: The only disagreement that I had with your post was whether or not 90% of parents were abusing their children. Your video said spanking. If you give your kid an open hand spank/slap on the hand or butt, or something along those lines, that’s way different than what was in the judge video, which only an insecure, power-hungry prick would do. I think (regarding your first post) that people still have every right to speak out about this video, even if they spank their kids. It’s something else entirely. Good stats in the video though, that backs up what a lot of us were trying to say earlier when the child-beating barbarians were crawling out of the woodwork.
Everyone else: If you feel that your only option to teach and discipline your child is to beat them with a belt every time they disobey you, then you need to become more confident in your manhood. You also need to take some psychology classes at the local community college. You can also utilize the internet to look up alternative (and more effective) methods of punishment and education. The science and statistics speak for themselves. Your style of parenting is more likely to create an angry and violent human being who is more likely to abuse their children and their spouse. They are also more apt to committing crimes throughout their adolescence. All that spanking that you thought was teaching them really stands a better chance of making them a drain on society.
I describe kids as ‘the biggest pain in the ass you will ever love’. I have been called lots of bad stuff in my life, but the best thing I have ever been called is ‘Daddy’. I would never give up being a parent. And if anybody fucks with my kids I’ll kill’em with my bare hands. The only time I spank is blatant disrespect or safety. Physical punishment is and never has been a tool for behavior modification. The human psyche isn’t wired that way.
All it is a use of force to establish dominance. If your kid doesn’t understand whose boss, you do have to show them. But a spanking isn’t horse whipping the shit out of your kids. It’s a few whacks on the butt, enough to get attention not cause pain. Sometimes it’s the only way. If your kid is dominant, your house is dysfunctional. An unhealthy dysfunction, not ‘normal’ dysfunction. If you find you are whacking your kids all the time, you doing some thing wrong. Usually, it’s letting problems escalate until there’re out of control then it’s to late to ‘fix’ it.
[/quote]
Ha! I used to get the broom and it never did a thing for me. Whenever someone told me to obey them I just had to go out of my way to make things hard for them (still do).
But yeah yoou’re right, me being dominant did cause dysfunction, but it’s more because I’m wired that way than through any fault of my mother. She really is great, I’ve just never been able to do the beta male thing.
I describe kids as ‘the biggest pain in the ass you will ever love’. I have been called lots of bad stuff in my life, but the best thing I have ever been called is ‘Daddy’. I would never give up being a parent. And if anybody fucks with my kids I’ll kill’em with my bare hands. The only time I spank is blatant disrespect or safety. Physical punishment is and never has been a tool for behavior modification. The human psyche isn’t wired that way.
All it is a use of force to establish dominance. If your kid doesn’t understand whose boss, you do have to show them. But a spanking isn’t horse whipping the shit out of your kids. It’s a few whacks on the butt, enough to get attention not cause pain. Sometimes it’s the only way. If your kid is dominant, your house is dysfunctional. An unhealthy dysfunction, not ‘normal’ dysfunction. If you find you are whacking your kids all the time, you doing some thing wrong. Usually, it’s letting problems escalate until there’re out of control then it’s to late to ‘fix’ it.
[/quote]
Ha! I used to get the broom and it never did a thing for me. Whenever someone told me to obey them I just had to go out of my way to make things hard for them (still do).
But yeah yoou’re right, me being dominant did cause dysfunction, but it’s more because I’m wired that way than through any fault of my mother. She really is great, I’ve just never been able to do the beta male thing.[/quote]
Yeah, disrespecting your mother is totally the Alpha Male thing to do
no matter what she did thats abuse, i used to get beat like that by my mom for even smaller mistakes. im sorry if you havent experienced it you cant really talk. that wasnt about punishment that was about him displacing his anger and frustration on her and using her as a whipping post, he wasnt trying to teach her a lesson he was abusing her for his own gratification.
In case people are curious (and no one’s heard), this dude’s been suspended w/ pay pending the outcome of an inquiry by the State Commission of Judicial Conduct, whatever that is.
