Texas Dad DUI Revenge Killing

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
143

Push addressed a lot here and I agree with him on the matter obviously, so I’ll try not to repeat any of that stuff.

[quote]magick wrote:

See, I feel that you’re more or less right.[/quote]

Lol, good.

But, and I’m 100% serious, if you lived within a 100 miles of me I would drive, pick you up, drive back to my range, take you shooting for the day, and drive you home.

And I wouldn’t do that to convert you, nor would I try and convince you of anything other than “this is what this firearm is, how it functions, and how to shoot it. Now blast that paper plate, lol.”

I live in an area sort of the opposite of Push. I live across the river from some very violent (and famous for home invasion) gangs and “clubs”. They are just as heavily armed as Push’s area, but are more concerned with shooting people looking for trouble than rando CPA’s with not so fancy TV’s. But… The potential is there.

[quote]My question then is, is it really necessarily the case that the person who lives in a very crime-free area is being irresponsible by not maximizing his/her self-defense capability?

I mean, technically speaking you could go buy a trained guard dog. You can place barbed wire on your fences (the home my parents bought actually has this, at least on the fence that isn’t shared by the next door neighbors). You can place hidden nails on your window-frame so that people who try to break in stab themselves with it (did this too when I lived in the dorms at college, I am paranoid)

You can place motion detectors. I mean, there’s tons of things you can do that don’t really cost a lot in the first place, is generally unobtrusive, and can be quite effective as a deterrent/safety measure.[/quote]

To answer your question, and take the rest of the quoted part into consideration when I say this:

If the firearm is your only line of home defense… You’re likely fucked. (Just like in a fight, if you’ve exhausted your rifle/shotgun and are down to your pistol, you’re likely fucked too.)

A firearm is just a layer in the onion.

Yes and no. In some cases, sure, but we’ve all grown up with them, just not in our hands or around the house. Think of movies, music, TV, video games…

There are guns everywhere and all around us all the time. It’s hard to avoid the mention and image of them.

Fine, and I have no issue with this.

What I have issue with is people like this trying to write law limiting my rights, and the vast majority of anti-2nd people are in this mold.

Can you see why that would be frustrating to the millionth degree?

[quote]I’m not going to go into who is right or wrong in this kind of situation. I just find it a little suspect when you say that you need guns for self-defense and that you’re not doing your best if you don’t buy one.

Honestly, I think you’re not doing your best if you don’t ring your fence with barbed wire. If I purchase a home of my own someday the first fucking thing I’m doing is placing barbed wire on the fence. I prefer to give people a warning to not fuck with me by placing an obvious and clear deterrent. I would much rather keep people out rather than having to deal with them inside the home.

The community association or w.e be damned.[/quote]

I’ll give you a lot of credit. This is one of the better firearm conversations I’ve ever had and you have a very open mind. I just want to point out the above. Swap barbed wire for firearm in this part of your post, and it would have been me who said it. See what I’m getting at?

You’re already there. Well, at least very much over the important hurtles.

144

[quote]magick wrote:

My question then is, is it really necessarily the case that the person who lives in a very crime-free area is being irresponsible by not maximizing his/her self-defense capability?

I mean, technically speaking you could go buy a trained guard dog. You can place barbed wire on your fences (the home my parents bought actually has this, at least on the fence that isn’t shared by the next door neighbors). You can place hidden nails on your window-frame so that people who try to break in stab themselves with it (did this too when I lived in the dorms at college, I am paranoid)

You can place motion detectors. I mean, there’s tons of things you can do that don’t really cost a lot in the first place, is generally unobtrusive, and can be quite effective as a deterrent/safety measure.[/quote]

As a former criminal who got caught and did time twenty years ago, I’d like to offer you some perspective. Now, keep in mind, I don’t even break the speed limit anymore, but from the age of about 14 - 22, I was about as bad as they get, either on the streets regularly committing theft, burglary and armed robbery or from 18 - 22, incarcerated in one of the five worst prisons in the US. So what I’m about to tell you isn’t some “theory” or something I “read in a book”. I LIVED this…

First of all, every “citizen” is a potential mark. If you live in a “low crime area” chances are that the police won’t spot me on the way in because they aren’t as used to dealing with much crime. You have better stuff than people in poorer “high crime areas”. There’s a higher chance that you are UN-armed because you are more likely to have been to college and to have been infected by the liberal anti-second amendment disease. In other words, YOU ARE AN IDEAL TARGET. You are likely to have homes further spaced apart so that your neighbors cant hear your cries for help. Your dog is probably a pussy that is spoiled and will not protect you.

To gain access to your house, most of the time I would just have to ring the fucking door bell and your trusting ass will just open the door… At which point, you will probably piss your pants, not fight back and obey every single thing I say. In short, you are likely to be a weak, soft target that I can exploit with one hand tied behind my back. Bonus if your wife or daughter is hot, then they’d get to have a little fun while they were there. Might make you watch just for the kicks…

THOSE are the kind of people that I spent four years with and THAT is what they think of “low crime areas” and the “privileged” people that live there. They would kill you slowly just because you had a better childhood than them and it would make them feel empowered for a minute or two… These aren’t “logical” people - they are criminally psychotic. Your “low crime area” is their play ground/hunting area. If you don’t think you need a gun (and know how to use it), you are very naive.

For the record, I did not directly participate in any home invasions of citizens like I depicted above. I did knock over a drug house or two, but they were in the game - different set of rules. And I can honestly say that I never hurt anyone who didn’t have it coming. HOWEVER, I spent a lot of time with some truly evil people and I can tell you, given what I directly experienced and witnessed, I feel that anyone who chooses to go through life UN-armed when they have the option to be LEGALLY armed is fucking stupid.

145

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]magick wrote:

My question then is, is it really necessarily the case that the person who lives in a very crime-free area is being irresponsible by not maximizing his/her self-defense capability?

I mean, technically speaking you could go buy a trained guard dog. You can place barbed wire on your fences (the home my parents bought actually has this, at least on the fence that isn’t shared by the next door neighbors). You can place hidden nails on your window-frame so that people who try to break in stab themselves with it (did this too when I lived in the dorms at college, I am paranoid)

You can place motion detectors. I mean, there’s tons of things you can do that don’t really cost a lot in the first place, is generally unobtrusive, and can be quite effective as a deterrent/safety measure.[/quote]

As a former criminal who got caught and did time twenty years ago, I’d like to offer you some perspective. Now, keep in mind, I don’t even break the speed limit anymore, but from the age of about 14 - 22, I was about as bad as they get, either on the streets regularly committing theft, burglary and armed robbery or from 18 - 22, incarcerated in one of the five worst prisons in the US. So what I’m about to tell you isn’t some “theory” or something I “read in a book”. I LIVED this…

First of all, every “citizen” is a potential mark. If you live in a “low crime area” chances are that the police won’t spot me on the way in because they aren’t as used to dealing with much crime. You have better stuff than people in poorer “high crime areas”. There’s a higher chance that you are UN-armed because you are more likely to have been to college and to have been infected by the liberal anti-second amendment disease. In other words, YOU ARE AN IDEAL TARGET. You are likely to have homes further spaced apart so that your neighbors cant hear your cries for help. Your dog is probably a pussy that is spoiled and will not protect you. To gain access to your house, most of the time I would just have to ring the fucking door bell and your trusting ass will just open the door… At which point, you will probably piss your pants, not fight back and obey every single thing I say. In short, you are likely to be a weak, soft target that I can exploit with one hand tied behind my back. Bonus if your wife or daughter is hot, then they’d get to have a little fun while they were there. Might make you watch just for the kicks…

THOSE are the kind of people that I spent four years with and THAT is what they think of “low crime areas” and the “privileged” people that live there. They would kill you slowly just because you had a better childhood than them and it would make them feel empowered for a minute or two… These aren’t “logical” people - they are criminally psychotic. Your “low crime area” is their play ground/hunting area. If you don’t think you need a gun (and know how to use it), you are very naive.

For the record, I did not directly participate in any home invasions of citizens like I depicted above. I did knock over a drug house or two, but they were in the game - different set of rules. And I can honestly say that I never hurt anyone who didn’t have it coming. HOWEVER, I spent a lot of time with some truly evil people and I can tell you, given what I directly experienced and witnessed, I feel that anyone who chooses to go through life UN-armed when they have the option to be LEGALLY armed is fucking stupid.[/quote]

If it makes you feel better a lot of the books on the subject back you up here, lol.

And in other news I really hope to get the opportunity to buy you a beer someday.

146

The thing is, most people don’t ever “need” a gun for defense. I hope that the time never comes where I “need” a gun for self defense. But I would much rather have one and hope I don’t need it, that to not have one and get in a situation where I really wish I did. Granted, my house is armed to the teeth with various weapons.

And to your big stick, just imagine a 12 gauge as a big stick with better range and a more potent thump.

147

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

If it makes you feel better a lot of the books on the subject back you up here, lol. [/quote]That’s how it is, unfortunately - people fool themselves into thinking they are “safe” and the world is “civilized”… It’s civilized until it is not.[quote]

And in other news I really hope to get the opportunity to buy you a beer someday. [/quote]

Right back atcha, brother!

148

[quote]pushharder wrote:
You need to accept the idea that you shouldn’t give a flying fuck what they do in Australia or Great Britain or France or Monaco or Lichtenstein or China-- you are an American – and our forefathers sacrificed their lives, fortunes and sacred honor to protect your God-given right to own and carry a gun … [/quote]

Man this is good stuff…

150

Gun could of helped this guy

151

[quote]pushharder wrote:
You’re completely missing the point. The point being as a free man you have a direct responsibility not to place the primary defense of yourself and those near and dear to you in the hands of those who can’t respond as quickly as you can.

This idea isn’t about guard dogs and barbed wire and claymores in your yard and growing up with guns or not and not even necessarily just about the defense of your domicile. It’s a principal of a man (or woman) accepting the notion that they bear the burden as a protector of the innocent (again, including yourself). Yes, it’s a chivalrous notion and there ain’t a damned thing wrong with chivalry.[/quote]

Exactly.

So, why are you just limiting yourself to guns? Why not get a couple attack dogs, set up motion detectors/trip-wire alarms at windows and doors and other possible avenue of entry?

Why not place barbed-wire on the fences? Why not put steel bars on your windows? Why not install 2-3 additional locks onto your front door?

After all, these are all things that you can do. And all of these things will certainly improve the probability that no one can enter your house without you knowing of it.

Indeed, if you are the protector of innocents (your family in this case), then shouldn’t you be doing EVERYTHING in your power instead of just getting a gun?

And, come on, what use is your gun if a ninja assassin enters your house without you knowing it and stabs you in your sleep? At the very least, you have to be awake and with the gun in your hands! One would think that trip-wire alarms on all window/doors is at least an absolute necessity!

[quote]pushharder wrote:
It’s ultimately, young magician, about growing a set.[/quote]

I’ll be honest. I think, at the end of it all, this is your real point. The rest are fluff.

You associate guns with manhood and masculinity. As such, you think of people who seek to ban guns or control their use or w.e. to be the opposite.

I don’t get that. If guns are a tool (as they are), then they are no different from bows or trip-wires or barbed wires or attack dogs or what have you when it comes to defense of your home. Indeed, at least against random intruders, the trip-wire alarms/barbed wire/steel bars may be more effective.

If that is the case, then I would claim that one is not doing their best to defend their home if they don’t apply at least 70% of the above methods.

If guns are merely a tool, then no concept of masculinity or manliness should be attached to them at all. They are a tool.

152

A right to own and use a firearm is more than just a right to protect yourself, others and property. To own a gun is to possess power. Take away your gun, you strip the man of his power. Symbolically and literally.

155

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Lol, good.

But, and I’m 100% serious, if you lived within a 100 miles of me I would drive, pick you up, drive back to my range, take you shooting for the day, and drive you home.

And I wouldn’t do that to convert you, nor would I try and convince you of anything other than “this is what this firearm is, how it functions, and how to shoot it. Now blast that paper plate, lol.”[/quote]

Thank you for the offer =) If I lived in MA right now I would probably take you up on that.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I live in an area sort of the opposite of Push. I live across the river from some very violent (and famous for home invasion) gangs and “clubs”. They are just as heavily armed as Push’s area, but are more concerned with shooting people looking for trouble than rando CPA’s with not so fancy TV’s. But… The potential is there.[/quote]

This part essentially runs in the same vein of idea as with A_C’s entire post, so I might as well say it here.

Would you be willing to entertain the possibility that this is an appeal to emotions?

Yes. The potential is there. But how high is the potential? 10% chance every night you go to bed? 50%? 1%? .1%?

Unless you know the actual possibility and make a reasoned decision, aren’t you essentially going purely by fear?

I don’t mean to say that there is no chance that a home invasion could ever occur. In fact I am terrified of the possibility and part of the reason why I will quite literally do everything in my power to make my home a fortress if I ever do buy a home (and ensure that I never live on the 1st floor of an apartment complex, etc). It’s just that I also recognize that I am probably not in any serious danger of being a victim of an home invasion. I fear it anyways, and will do a lot of things to ensure no one gets into my house without me knowing.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
To answer your question, and take the rest of the quoted part into consideration when I say this:

If the firearm is your only line of home defense… You’re likely fucked. (Just like in a fight, if you’ve exhausted your rifle/shotgun and are down to your pistol, you’re likely fucked too.)

A firearm is just a layer in the onion.[/quote]

Indeed. Then why do those folks who talk about guns for self-defense only talk about guns instead of barbed wires and steel bars on windows?

Again, I do recognize that I am not very educated on the subject. It could very well be that those who buy guns for defense do all those, or at least get alarm sensors. I just never hear of it.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Yes and no. In some cases, sure, but we’ve all grown up with them, just not in our hands or around the house. Think of movies, music, TV, video games…

There are guns everywhere and all around us all the time. It’s hard to avoid the mention and image of them.[/quote]

Fair enough. I do think that people recognize the different between computer guns and real guns though (though, what with the unfortunate incident in Arizona a couple of weeks ago, I’m not entirely sure…)

Put it another way, I see people use weightlifting belt at the gym all the time. I still haven’t gotten one, and I don’t think I’ll get one unless someone actually introduces me to one and tells me how to use it.

In fact, I think weightlifting belts are an appropriate analogy to guns.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Fine, and I have no issue with this.

What I have issue with is people like this trying to write law limiting my rights, and the vast majority of anti-2nd people are in this mold.

Can you see why that would be frustrating to the millionth degree?[/quote]

Yes. They are all arguing on the basis of an appeal to emotions. Having dealt with them myself, I found it frustrating myself. And I’m not even a gun-right supporter! I’m sure you find it significantly more frustrating than I do.

I am of the opinion that if people somehow managed to actually ban guns, then we’d just get people murdering each other with knives. And then knives would have to get banned… Which would be unfortunate because then we wouldn’t be able to eat properly.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I’ll give you a lot of credit. This is one of the better firearm conversations I’ve ever had and you have a very open mind. I just want to point out the above. Swap barbed wire for firearm in this part of your post, and it would have been me who said it. See what I’m getting at?[/quote]

I do. I just want to ask, why not go the “extra mile”?

Heck, why is it even an “extra mile”? Shouldn’t you be getting that barbed wire first? As you wrote, guns should be your last resort, after all =D One would think that the tools that work to prevent people from getting inside your home should be what you get first.

Oh, and thank you for the compliment.

156

[quote]pushharder wrote:
I said this didn’t necessarily have to do with just the defense of one’s home – it’s about an ethos of responsibility. You can’t pack around barbed wire, alarms and steel bars, which are tools of course, to effect your responsibility.[/quote]

I am focusing on the defense of the home. The home is your castle, after all. One would think that defending one’s castle is the number one priority.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
But frankly, you’re not bright enough to engage me any longer. Adios.[/quote]

Does this mean that you’ll never talk to me again? Oh God, please let that be true!

Edit-

Look, I get that the fundamental difference between you and I is that we disagree on the symbol of the gun as power. I don’t see it that way. You do.

I don’t know how to get around this. I just find it a little pathetic you resort to insults and ignore the actual issue at hand.

You see, my definition of masculinity is that one addresses everything that comes their way. Rise to the challenge and all that. That’s sort of why I try to respond to everything people write to me.

And, so, in that view, you saying “adios” seems like you’re a pussy to me.

157

[quote]magick wrote:
Would you be willing to entertain the possibility that this is an appeal to emotions?
[/quote]

Sure. Is it? Maybe, but I’m not trying to argue as much as just show you a different perspective.

[quote]Yes. The potential is there. But how high is the potential? 10% chance every night you go to bed? 50%? 1%? .1%?

Unless you know the actual possibility and make a reasoned decision, aren’t you essentially going purely by fear?[/quote]

Fear is a very powerful emotion, and a whole lot of people would do themselves some good if they sat back and admitted they were afraid and what they had fear of.

Fear is an emotional response to stress. Whether quick or drawn out over time, if you don’t address it, face it, admit it and train it out of your life, when shit hits the fan your conditioned response will be more fear.

However firearms are about more than protection, even though protection is one of the nicer features. The new guy and Push spoke about the power aspect. (ANd this is where I think you and Push cross roads and start talking past each other.)

Power is just the other side of fear. One can have problems with either or both. One can abuse either or both, and one must train both in or out of their lives.

Firearms also teach:
focus
responsibility
awareness
how to condition yourself (the 4 rules)
fine motor skill muscle memory
engineering
physics
math
situational awareness
nervous system response
stress response inoculation
Calming techniques

so on and so on… and a lot of this is subconscious.

None of the things you want to do are being threatened to be banned by national level politicos tho…

[quote]
Indeed. Then why do those folks who talk about guns for self-defense only talk about guns instead of barbed wires and steel bars on windows?[/quote]

See banning, and because firearms are infinitely more interesting than “I put up a fence, let’s go to Hooters.”

Yeah, most people understand the gun is just one layer.

[quote]
Fair enough. I do think that people recognize the different between computer guns and real guns though [/quote]

Conditioning is conditioning is conditioning.

I’d have to find the book, but the adjustment time from 300 hours of video game shooting to accuracy with a real rifle/pistol is some absurd number like 12-15 shots.

[quote]I do. I just want to ask, why not go the “extra mile”?

Heck, why is it even an “extra mile”? Shouldn’t you be getting that barbed wire first? As you wrote, guns should be your last resort, after all =D[/quote]

If at all possible, a pistol should be your last resort in terms of firearms.

158

MagicK I think part of your problem also is that you are looking at it from a purely self-defense standpoint. Having a firearm also means that I can provide for my family without any middle man. It is good knowing that one can be self sufficient, even if you don’t have to be.

Also, the more compelling argument for “every man needs a gun” is not because its just the manly thing to do; it is that the way the second amendment is worded, we are essentially called to own a weapon and know how to use it well enough to be an active participant in a citizen army should the need arise. Owning a gun and knowing how to use it is the patriotic thing to do. The same argument cannot be made for barbed wire and trip wires.

For this reason I also don’t think that firearm #1 for most people should be a handgun. Rifles and shotguns are much more utilitarian than handguns and should be learned first.

159

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
MagicK I think part of your problem also is that you are looking at it from a purely self-defense standpoint.[/quote]

It is intentional.

I’ve already recognized Pushharder’s argument that the 2nd Amendment essentially calls on all U.S. citizens to arm themselves to fight tyranny.

Note, though, that this is not the case for any country that is not the U.S. But, as Pushharder also wrote, we live in the U.S., not France or some other country. Therefore, we don’t have to care about what citizens over there say. I fully agree with this.

I just have reservations about Pushharder continually saying that guns are manly and such. I consider them a tool, not a symbol of masculinity or some such. Afaik, the biggest point of contention between me and Pushharder on the issue is this anyhow. I’ll probably get to addressing this further when I eventually respond to CountingBeans.

The only thing left, afaik, is self-defense. I am still thinking on self-defense as regards to people randomly out on the streets. And I have given my position when it comes to home defense.

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Having a firearm also means that I can provide for my family without any middle man. It is good knowing that one can be self sufficient, even if you don’t have to be.[/quote]

I live in the middle of Suburbia. There is not a single deer, or any suitable game in general to be found for hundreds of miles in any direction.

I don’t know how owning a gun helps me provide for my family.