Testosterone and E2 After 4 Months of Gel Use

Pharma / TRT Testosterone Replacement
21

I suspect my Asastrozole liquid is weaker than genuine product.
Below is a quick history of past few days:

12/18/2015 6 drops (.34g) + 100mg Tgel - felt great that day no fog, good energy, 4:30 crash
12/19/2015 3 drops (.17g)AM 4 drops PM (total .43mg) + 100mg Tgel - minor fog, zero energy, 4:30 crash
12/20/2015 Zero drops, zero T - Felt great no 4:30 crash. 1st time for that in weeks
12/21/2015 Zero drops, zero T - Decent day, a little fog, normal energy, Major crash at 4:30!
12/22/2015 8 drops AM, 6 drops PM + 50mg Tgel applied to smaller area - Tired all morning, minor fog. Super Major crash at 4:30!
12/23/2015 8 drops AM - Zero Tgel - Good day, Zero fog, plenty of energy

So I took 14 drops yesterday and 8 this morning which is supposedly over a 1mg and felt clear as a bell today. Oh how grand to be able to think clearly. Will see what tomorrow brings.

Unrelated note: Have found that 10 drops Tadalifil AM & PM is the perfect amount. Suspect it is also weak (but cheap!). I may try genuine stuff but itā€™s highway robbery prices and I donā€™t put my stamp of approval on practices like that.

Of course I took the Anastrozole near when I started the Iodine so results are muddled together like you stated.

Re:excersise tolerance.
Until taking Anastrozole I was basically getting shut down. I had to take a 4-5 day break from lifting.
Now I am back at it and tolerance is better and resurfacing.

I should be going back down to my real life T levels here soon I hope. I know coming off months of gel can take time to get back to normal but I donā€™t know just how long. I also donā€™t really know what I am talking about. :slight_smile:

Sick of that gel and will likely not take it again unless I can start over fresh and use inhibitor at the beginning and get tested when I want. T was at almost 700 when using gel but apparently it was mostly aromatising, blah blah.

I will begin with the Iodine again tomorrow but at 6mg/day and take temps every morning and afternoon.

22

12/24 AM readings after no lodoral for over 2 days
Welch-Allyn thermometer
98.1 average morning temp 6 readings

Took 6mg lodoral afternoon
98.9 average afternoon temps
Felt very minor reflex/heartburn kind of feeling.

Zero drops anastrozole, zero Tgel - No fog, Felt pretty good no 4:30 crash. Nice.
Tried Pure Acetyl L-Carnitine (ALCAR) Powder 1/4 tsp and R-Alpha Lipoic Acid together about 1/2 hour before I lifted. Holy cow my mind felt clear and a decent boost of energy. I will try that again tomorrow, as it could be a fluke or just something else causing it.

I think I am just going to stop the Tgel completely and see what happens. I think my T numbers have to be very low due to the gel over all that time stopping/suppressing natural production and then me basically weaning down the past week or so. So if I can feel good now with that low number I should be able to feel even better when my natural T comes back. My original Total natural T level was 280ish I think.

With our technology today this guessing Sh*t is downright medieval.

23

Maybe you should be injecting T?

Acetyl L-Carnitine (ALCAR) Powder 1/4 tsp and R-Alpha Lipoic Acid:
Your response suggests that this improved mitochondrial production of ATP.
If you want to explore this effect more, try 50mg Ubiquinol form of CoQ10.
Take 100mg first day.
Take with a meal that has more oils/fats. Do not take with high fiber foods.
Also note that mitochondrial metabolism is mainly regulated by fT3 and your IR and temperature improvements are part of this.
Mitochondria make free radicals that can damage the mitochondria. Vitamin C and natural source Vit-E help the enzymes that deal with the free radicals.

24

Thanks for the ideas KSman.
I am seeing a uro in a couple weeks. I have my notes ready so I can see if he is indeed just a pusher of his favorite drugs or he has a head on his shoulders. I heard he likes the pellets.

I am not opposed to injecting T just doing what I can to see if I can improve my condition beforehand to a satisfactorily level. I have my doubts but am willing to at least give it a shot no pun intended] now that I know moreā€¦ I see no downside to that.

Interesting idea the Ubiquinol. I can try this. I will look into my C & E intake too.

My current status:
Stopped just about everything.
No Gel, No Anastrozole, No Tadalifil, No Iodine, No Supplements aside from a couple tests with ALCAR & still taking Egg Protein, Multi-Vitamin, & Fish Oil. I donā€™t see these three having a big interaction effect. If someone says otherwise I will look into it.

I was tired of guessing all the time and having my system flooded with such a cocktail. Who knows what all these things are doing either synergistically or detrimentally.

So now I have a pretty clean slate. I know there must be some residuals and perhaps my E2 levels are unknown but I donā€™t crash anymore at 4:30 which I was doing consistently for damn near a month. I feel better rested in the AM and I am lifting pretty close to what I was before. Recovery seems a tad slower though.

Libido and erections are not fabulous but not totally non-existant either. So it does appear I am getting close to where I started from.

I will begin experimenting:
Just to give it itā€™s due, I will take Iodine and see if my temps go up to near 100 again and if I feel any better. Start checking stuff off. I will begin today.

25

Update:

Took my Temps for 5 straight days. No Iodine.
Morning 98.1 average
Afternoon 98.7 average

Took temps for 6 days 6 mg iodine (lodoral tablet cut up)
Morning 98.5 average
Afternoon 99.4 average

To get the average each morning I took 6 seperate temps and then 6 in the afternoon.

I have not been taking anastrozole (or much of anything else) and I believe my system is near where I began before taking Tgel.
I did not find any difference in the way I felt aside from warmer when taking the Iodine and I am not keen on the climbing temperature so for now, I am holding off on the iodine. I am scheduled to see an urologist tomorrow.

Here is the latest info. I have;
TSH 1.09 mIU/L Range 0.40-4.50
T3 Uptake 41 Range 22-35 % [T3 uptake is too high, indicating low T3-KSman]
T4 4.5 Range 4.5-12 [T4 is very low, suggesting iodine deficiency-KSman]

Please Read:
After doing all this I noticed something that might be of help to others who decide to do this temp checking regime seriously and desire accurate and consistent results.

Where you place the thermometer can change the reading a whole degree or more.

There are 2 Very specific places to put the thermometer and it is not under the front of your tongue. Check out the images here and make sure you put the thermometer in one of those two places shown.
I was not and had frustrating results especially if I was doing a few readings in a row and they would be different and sometimes by a fair margin.

26

Good body temps. Oddly low T4.

What next?

27

I plan to see the Uro tomorrow. I am taking all my previous lab work, hearing what he has to say, and requesting a fresh set of labs to use as a place to start. I will ask as many questions as he is willing to answer thus immediately discovering if he is worth his salt or just another pharma pimp peddling the wares he happens to like.

If I donā€™t like what I see or hear, I at least will try and get all the lab work since I hit a wall with my GP.

28

One can do lab work on there own in most USA states.

http://www.lifeextension.com/vitamins-supplements/blood-tests/how-it-works

There are other places on the WWW to do the same. Some other guys might suggest, LEF is just the only one I remember.

29

Thank You for that info.
Good resource to keep on the back burner if needed. Will give another update as soon as I have something worthy.

30

Just got back from the Urologist. I was not happy overall with my visit. A busy man he was, popping from room to room to see people.

Here is some of what transpired:

Doc--You would need an estradiol number near 500 for it to be a problem. I have many guys on injections and none have had a problem with that.
Me--But my E2 number was flagged as high by the accepted standards and I took anastrozole for a couple days and pretty quickly began to feel better"
Me--Would you prescribe arimidex for example if E2 was high
Docā€”I would lower the T instead. Inhibitors have not been shown to be a viable long term solution. You donā€™t want to play ping pong with your levels
Meā€“Then why with a jump from ~270 to almost 700 T level did I still feel like crap?
Doc--You are getting lost in the data
Meā€“But I felt terrible

Docā€”I will need to check your testes and prostate
Meā€”I just had that done last week
Docā€”But that was not here

Docā€”You will need to come in for a Cystoscopy so we can get a view of the prostate. If it gets bigger during the T treatment, then we will stop and re-evaluate.

Ever heard of that? Good idea?

Docā€“No I wonā€™t prescribe HCG with T because the body will see the extra T from the injection and stop itā€™s own production regardless of HCG. HCG will not work if your body has plenty of T. So to use both is not worth it and a waste.
Docā€“Yes I will put Estradiol on your bloodwork but only because you are pushing for it. But the rest you donā€™t need.
Docā€“You will need to come into my office once a month for a single shot.
Docā€“No I do not see guys coming in and saying they are having peaks and valleys or it is wearing off before the month ends. If someone were to say that we could possibly inject on the 3rd week.

And so it went for about 15 minutes. It seemed like he was so busy that there was no way he had the time to answer all my questions. And it started to sound like he was becoming a little irritated at me, saying that he didnā€™t want to argue about stuff.

I, however, wonā€™t deal with this kind of Dr. treatment much longer. I have another plan based on diet, liquid tadalifil, supplements, and lifting/exercise that I will fall back on. It seemed to be working fairly well the short time I tried it.

He kept staring at my previous 2 pages of lab work like he had never seen so much done before.

So if I were to follow his template I would be injecting once a month and be at the beckon of whatever he desires and whatever he thinks I should do next if it doesnā€™t go as planned.

Is there anyone that has injected cypionate once a month and been happy and well? I know why that is not a good idea, just asking.

I have since found out that in NJ, specialist cannot ask for bloodwork outside of their realm of practice without getting some kind of red flag. Thatā€™s what the guy at Quest told me.

My lab results will be in Monday they said, so in reality Wednesday I should have them. I will not be seeing him again and am cancelling that procedure unless someone convinces me otherwise.

ā€“

31

You need to inject T twice a week for steady levels.
You canā€™t do an AI injecting every 1,2,3,4 weeks because anastrozole needs to match T levels and they are moving too much.

See the links in the 2nd post of the one sticky in this forum. Look at ā€œfinding a TRT docā€

32

Thanks. Yeah I think I will start looking into what my options are in NJ. Anyone from NJ out there and found a good doctor?
Until then I am going to try my other method I mentioned. I swear I was starting to feel pretty good. At least itā€™s better than doing nothing while I wait and definitely better than following the doc I just met with.

Anyone try increasemyt dot com?

33

They have the right approach.

I would want to see what their initial and followup labs are.
They are not looking at thyroid or adrenal issues. Overly specialized, but typical.

34

Thanks for taking a quick look at them for meā€“I appreciate that.

Got a recent lab back from when I went to the uro a bit ago. This is all he would allow me to do. I have been off everything for a while now.

Looks like either my liquid Anastrozole did work pretty good or it naturally went down. Not sure how long that really takes though. Went from a previous 49 to 17.

My original natural T levels were ~285 and now 302. Never got free T done before going on gel so canā€™t compare. So it appears I am back to where I began in September.

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35

Those are your labs not taking anastrozole? With low T, many have E2 that low as an expected consequence.

36

I was taking anastrozole for a while but had not taken it for a couple weeks or so before this testing because I felt I didnā€™t need it. I guess I was right.

37

Could someone read this and tell me your thoughts.

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38

That is bogus. We have guys go on TRT with weekly injections who are totally crashed at the end of the week. The issue is quality of life.

With infrequent injections:

  • T levels spike, promoting higher Tā€“>E2 and more HTC increases
  • at the end of the injection period, T has dropped and one can be drowning in a sea of estradiol
  • anastrozole management of E2 is a mess because it needs to match T levels and T levels are changing too much.

Your doctor should not be concerned with how you self inject your T, its your issue, not his.

The 14 day injection cycle was determined to be less of a burden for guys going to their doctorā€™s office for injections. With glass syringes and reused needles, self injections were not on the radar. The metrics for success were ā€œnormalā€ T levels at the end of the injection cycle, and that could be TT in the lower 300ā€™s.

And T half life varies from one guy to another.

The whole reason for TRT is restored quality of life. But medical dogma often forgets what the objectives are.

39

Also, hormones are unique. They are not like other medications. They should be used the way our body would produce them to be the most effective. Would it make sense for a diabetic to inject insulin in huge amounts every two weeks? We want as close as possible to a steady state of T in our bodies all day, every day.

40

Thanks to both of you. Their argument on the surface seems pretty convincing if you didnā€™t know otherwise.

I figured as much having read so much on this site but I wanted confirmation and solid reasons so I can discuss this in a compelling fashion with a new doc I might be visiting.

I suppose itā€™s kind of like rubbing on 14 days worth of Tgel on just the first day of those 2 weeks and expecting it to work out fine.

Thanks again