[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Thank you for your time and contribution Cy.
“So the answer is - there is no answer”
LOL - but true.
It seems to me that the more you know about steroids etc, the more there is to know. Paralysis by analysis anyone?
bushboy[/quote]
No shit.
I don’t know about you guys, but I’m still left a bit confused. As I’ve heard so many different things on Tren and then there’s Deca!
At one time, I was thinking of adding Anavar to a Test prop/Tren ace cycle and a member(on another board) told me to watch out combining 2 19-Nor compounds! Then suggested I take proviron if I did stack Tren/Anavar.
But like Crowbar stated at the beginning if you can control estrogen from the get go, then gyno should not be an issue!
I think Letro (even though quite powerful) is the way to go. Or maybe even Aromasin.
Either way Rainjack I really don’t think you will have any gyno issues bro.
I have that study with B6 that I will post and also the other one.
I also want to thank Cy for chiming in!!
Here is that B6 study:
Suppression of Lactation:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976 Mar;42(3):603-6
Effect of pyridoxine on human hypophyseal trophic hormone release: a possible stimulation of hypothalamic dopaminergic pathway.
Delitala G, Masala A, Alagna S, Devilla L.
A single dose of pyridoxine (300 mg iv) produced significant rises in peak levels of immunoreactive growth hormone GH and significant decrease of plasma prolactin PRL in 8 hospitalized healthy subjects. Serum glucose, luteinizing hormone LH, follicle stimulating hormone FSH and thyrotropin TSH were not altered significantly. In addition, in 5 acromegalic patients who were studied with both L-dopa and pyridoxine, inhibition of GH secretion followed either agent in a similar pattern. These data suggest a hypothalamic dopaminergic effect of pyridoxine.
===============================
N Engl J Med 1982 Aug 12;307(7):444-5
Pyridoxine (B6) suppresses the rise in prolactin and increases the rise in growth hormone induced by exercise.
Moretti C, Fabbri A, Gnessi L, Bonifacio V, Fraioli F, Isidori A.
=====================================
Boll Soc Ital Biol Sper 1984 Feb 28;60(2):273-8
[Influence of administration of pyridoxine on circadian rhythm of plasma ACTH, cortisol prolactin and somatotropin in normal subjects]
[Article in Italian]
Barletta C, Sellini M, Bartoli A, Bigi C, Buzzetti R, Giovannini C.
The influence of vitamin B6 in a dosage of 300 mg X 2 in 24 hrs, on circadian rhythm of plasmatic ACTH, cortisol, prolactin and somatotropin have been studied in 10 normal women. After vitamin B6 24 hrs pattern of ACTH and cortisol is unchanged; prolactin levels are slightly lower, in a statistically unsignificant proportion the night peak of growth hormone is higher in a statistically significant proportion (p. 0.05). The effect of vitamin B6 is likely to me mediated by dopaminergic receptors at hypothalamic level as previous studies by other Authors appear to prove
And here is another one relevant to the topic:
PROGESTERONE AND PROLACTIN INDUCED GYNECOMASTIA
Before delving into this subject, I?d like to say first and foremost, that in users of anabolic/androgenic steroids (AAS) the first step in combating the development of gynecomastia, or male breast enlargement, is to eliminate the causative agent: the anabolic steroid. Drug-induced gynecomastia almost invariably resolves on its own when a person quits taking the drugs responsible for it, if caught before permanent fibrosis develops. Unfortunately, most AAS users don?t want to employ this simple approach, for obvious reasons, so the foregoing will all be under the assumption that a person wants to prevent or treat gyno and still continue steroid use.
In the belief that certain anabolic steroids increase prolactin levels as well as act as agonists at the progesterone receptor, some have advocated the use of antiprolactin agents, like bromocriptine, or progesterone receptor blockers like RU-486 to treat AAS related gynecomastia, in lieu of more traditional drugs like tamoxifen.
In truth, the etiology of gynecomastia is unknown and a number of agents including estrogens, progestins, GH, IGF-1, and prolactin may be involved. However, most authorities believe that a decreased (T+DHT)/E ratio is central to the development of gyno, and that blocking the effects of estrogen, or increasing T + DHT levels, is central to ameliorating the problem.
Regarding prolactin, androgens decrease prolactin levels whereas estrogens increase prolactin. Non-aromatizing androgens have never been shown to elevate prolactin levels in humans, but testosterone has, due to its aromatization to estradiol (19). Prolactin secreting tumors, or prolactinomas, are often associated with gyno. But in these cases the prolactin is believed to induce gyno by suppressing testosterone production: ?Prolactinomas that are sufficiently large to cause gynecomastia do so as a result of impairment of gonadotropin secretion and secondary hypogonadism?. (20). However, this is a moot issue in AAS users whose gonadotropin secretion is already blunted.
According to research cited in (20), prolactin may have a direct stimulatory effect on mammary tissue development, but only in the presence of high estrogen levels:
The presence of mild hyperprolactinaemia is therefore not uncommon in patients with estrogen excess. Significant primary hyperprolactinaemia, on the other hand, may directly stimulate epithelial cell proliferation in an estrogen-primed breast, causing epithelial cell proliferation and gynaecomastia.
So rather than focusing solely on lowering prolactin levels which may be elevated in users of aromatizing androgens, attacking estrogen should be the first line of action.
GH and IGF-1 are considered critical to the proliferation of mammary tissue. An excellent review of the role played by these hormones, as well as a general overview of gynecomastia can be found here:
Since elevated GH and IGF-1 are considered important to the anabolic effect of AAS, it would be impractical and counterproductive to attempt to prevent gynecomastia by blocking GH/IGF.
Progesterone acts in concert with estrogen to promote breast development, and at least part of any role played by synthetic progestins may be to stimulate IGF-1 production in the breast. But again, blocking the action of progesterone or synthetic progestins is not practical. Specific progesterone receptor antagonists like RU-486 block not only the progesterone receptor, but the androgen receptor as well, and have actually been associated with the development of gynecomastia (21). In any case, progesterone is thought to act on the breast to enhance the effects of estrogen (22) so once again, attacking estrogen is the easiest and most logical approach.
DHT gel (Andractim) or a generic knockoff might help as well. DHT is thought to act as an aromatase inhibitor (23) and perhaps compete directly with estrogen for binding at the estrogen receptor (24). DHT has been used in several case reports and controlled trials to successfully treat gynecomastia. So perhaps a viable strategy would be to combine DHT gel with tamoxifen. I would recommend tamoxifen rather than an aromatase inhibitor due to the simple fact that tamoxifen has been widely used in numerous controlled studies to succesfully treat gynecomastia, whereas the evidence to support the efficacy of aromatase inhibitors is scanty at best.
Undoubtedly, due to space limitations, I have left out a number of what are surely many readers? pet myths. Perhaps in a future issue we can address more of these myths and questionable notions.
References:
(19) Nicoletti I, Filipponi P, Fedeli L, Ambrosi F, Gregorini G, Santeusanio F
Acta Endocrinol (Copenh) 1984 Feb;105(2):167-72
(20) Ismail AA, Barth JH.Ann Clin Biochem 2001 Nov;38(Pt 6):596-607
(21) Grunberg SM, Weiss MH, Spitz IM, Ahmadi J, Sadun A, Russell CA, Lucci L, Stevenson LL J Neurosurg 1991 Jun;74(6):861-6
(22) Nomura K, Suzuki H, Saji M, Horiba N, Ujihara M, Tsushima T, Demura H, Shizume K
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2
(23) Perel E, Stolee KH, Kharlip L, Blackstein ME, Killinger DW
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1984 Mar;58(3):467-72
(24) Casey RW, Wilson JD.
J Clin Invest 1984 Dec;74(6):2272-8
Update:
I stoped the tren 1week ago and the testo 2weeks ago. Im still at 40mg nolva ED and 1mg armidex, and I think the gyno is under control. The symtoms stopped developing when i started taking nolva. The bump under my niple is softer. and The whole week has felt better.
Currently my cycle looks ilke this:
50mg winny ED
40mg nolva ED
1mg armidex ED
Would you recomend to start with trenbolone again? Add 37,5 mg and see what happends?
Thanks
//Win
OK, just started a new cycle (4 days ago):
I like short blitz cycles:
Weeks 1-6:
1)Tren base (no ester); 350 mg. EW
2)Anavar; 60 mg. ED
3)Stanozolol; 50 mg. ED
4)Proviron; 40 mg. ED
5)LIV52; 2 tabs, twice daily (liver protection)
6)Fat burner; twice daily
Sancho, great posts–thanks much. However, I wasn’t aware that Anavar was a 19-nor compound; are you sure about this?
I’m trying this stack as it is a non-aromatizing cycle. Therefore, no estrogen issues to deal with. Further, this is a cutter, and Anavar will work nicely with it (I love Anavar).
So far the only sides I’ve noticed are my usual cold like symptoms after starting a cycle–never fails, within a couple of days of starting a cycle I always get cold-like symptoms as the androgens enter my system. This is my first go around with Tren, and last night I got the insomnia.
Will let you know how it goes.
Crowbar
Hey Crowbar -
What’s the half life of tren no ester?
Rainjack, since it has no ester, it has no half-life in the classic sense. It needs to be administered every day. I’m using a transdermal Tren, so the dermis will eventually get saturated and give a sort of time release effect over 24 hours.
Crowbar
That’s what I thought. Just like test no ester.
How efficient is the patch? Seems like it would be less efficient than injectable.
Rainjack, it’s not a patch, but, rather, a liquid transdermal from an UG lab. Yes, transdermals are certainly less effecient than injectables. The product I’m using claims ~40% absorption; probably a little high, but not too far off based on other transdermals from the same UG lab that I’ve used. So, each ml. contains 25 mg. of hormone. At 40% absorption you’re getting 10 mg. per ml. ABSORBED. Thus, if you use, for example, 5 ml./day, you’ll be absorbing ~50 mg./day. I can’t see how it would matter if the amount absorbed was injected or through transdermal administration.
I’ve seen studies of transdermal Test administration using a lecithin based organogel such as Phlojel Ultra, with absorption rates as high as 50%.
By the way, I got some Test base (no ester) powder and a jar of Phlojel Ultra. I’ll be making my own transdermal Test for an upcoming bulking cycle. With the Phlojel Ultra you can easily dissolve up to 100-150 mg./gram (=ml.)of hormone. If you figure somewhere between 33-40% absorption to be conservative (as absorption rates for transdermal administration vary widely between individuals), you still have a highly concentrated transdermal.
Phlojel Ultra is used by compounding pharmacists to make transdermal hormone and NSAID preparations, for example.
Crowbar
[quote]crowbar524 wrote:
Sancho, great posts–thanks much. However, I wasn’t aware that Anavar was a 19-nor compound; are you sure about this?
[/quote]
No problem Crowbar!! Just thought those studies might shed some new light to the subject at hand, plus help the bros out too!
It wasn’t me who said Anavar was a 19nor direviative it was another member on another board, which confused the hell out of me even more at the time!!
I like the way you have your cycle laid out too Crowbar! How do you like the Tren base trans?
I was looking at doing a Test/Tren Base cycle with Phlogel just want to get more feedback on it.
Hey crowbar the guy that sells Phlogel suggested that I should use methyl alcohol with the phlogel and hormone powder and mix it all up together.
Did you use that or are you using (I think I know who’s UG lab product you’re using)the ready made product?
Sancho, I’m using the pre-made transdermal Tren base–I’m sure you know from whom. The problem was I couldn’t find a domestic source for the Tren base powder, and I refuse to order international.
Anyway, I’m only four days into my cycle, so I don’t have much to report yet. However, I can definetly tell it’s hitting my system, as I have my usual cold like symptoms. Like clock work, 2-3 days into a cycle I wake up feeling like I got an instant cold. Also, last night the insomnia hit! I’ve noticed a little bit of irritability or increased aggression.
As far as the Phlojel Ultra goes, you should be able to easily dissolve 100 mg. of hormone per gram(=ml.) of Phlojel. Over about 150 mg.of hormone/gram of Phlojel Ultra, it’s suggested that you use a little alcohol as a co-solvent.
I used to inject years ago, but since returning to juicing I’m just sick of all the sticking. I’ve found the transdermals to be a very acceptable alternative.
This is my first time around with Tren and I have a feeling this stuff is going to be pretty powerful, based on the effects so far.
Crowbar
[quote]crowbar524 wrote:
Sancho, I’m using the pre-made transdermal Tren base–I’m sure you know from whom. The problem was I couldn’t find a domestic source for the Tren base powder, and I refuse to order international.
Anyway, I’m only four days into my cycle, so I don’t have much to report yet. However, I can definetly tell it’s hitting my system, as I have my usual cold like symptoms. Like clock work, 2-3 days into a cycle I wake up feeling like I got an instant cold. Also, last night the insomnia hit! I’ve noticed a little bit of irritability or increased aggression.
As far as the Phlojel Ultra goes, you should be able to easily dissolve 100 mg. of hormone per gram(=ml.) of Phlojel. Over about 150 mg.of hormone/gram of Phlojel Ultra, it’s suggested that you use a little alcohol as a co-solvent.
I used to inject years ago, but since returning to juicing I’m just sick of all the sticking. I’ve found the transdermals to be a very acceptable alternative.
This is my first time around with Tren and I have a feeling this stuff is going to be pretty powerful, based on the effects so far.
Crowbar[/quote]
Awsome info!! I’m definitely going to be trying that product as I’m getting sick of pinning too. I have so much scar tissue that I swear to fucking god it squeeks when I push the needle in my glutes and thighs!!!
I’m totally interested in your final results and would sincerely appreciate it if you keep me updated on your progress.
Thank you very much Crowbar!!
[quote]crowbar524 wrote:
Sancho, I’m using the pre-made transdermal Tren base–I’m sure you know from whom. The problem was I couldn’t find a domestic source for the Tren base powder, and I refuse to order international.
Anyway, I’m only four days into my cycle, so I don’t have much to report yet. However, I can definetly tell it’s hitting my system, as I have my usual cold like symptoms. Like clock work, 2-3 days into a cycle I wake up feeling like I got an instant cold. Also, last night the insomnia hit! I’ve noticed a little bit of irritability or increased aggression.
As far as the Phlojel Ultra goes, you should be able to easily dissolve 100 mg. of hormone per gram(=ml.) of Phlojel. Over about 150 mg.of hormone/gram of Phlojel Ultra, it’s suggested that you use a little alcohol as a co-solvent.
I used to inject years ago, but since returning to juicing I’m just sick of all the sticking. I’ve found the transdermals to be a very acceptable alternative.
This is my first time around with Tren and I have a feeling this stuff is going to be pretty powerful, based on the effects so far.
Crowbar[/quote]
Hey Crowbar, I used a test base transdermal my 1st cycle. The only thing I didn’t like was the variable on dosage…what I did like was it was easy to travel with. I looked at the Tren, but it required the use of a brush for application. I would be interested in how your expierence turns out.
Over40, sounds like we know the same source. The Tren was suppossed to come with a brush for application, but I guess he forgot to include it. Anyway, I’ve just applied it with my hands. It has caused a slight yellow staining of my palms in spots, but not very noticeable at all. Now, three or four weeks into the cycle it might be more visible, but honestly I don’t think it’s much of a concern–unless you have someone looking at your hands all day. You could just say you were staining some wood item.
Sancho, OK, people may think I’m crazy, but here goes: I got insomnia on the third night of my cycle. I assummed it was the Tren kicking in; however, I tend to have problems sleeping anyway–between AAS, training, and playing poker for a living, I guess it’s a lot of stress on my nervous system.
Anyway, for the last couple of nights I’ve been sleeping like a baby! Deep restful sleep! I’ve also been dreaming like crazy; I usually don’t dream much–or probably more accurately, don’t often remember them. I’ve been wakeing up the last couple of days feeling very rested and GREAT!
The Tren really seems to be a mood elevator for me–even more so than Test or D-bol. I mean I feel fucking GREAT, I’m flying; loads of energy and just a feeling of everything is “right on”! Now, I don’t know if others have noticed this effect from Tren or if that’s just the way it affects me, but I’m lovin’ it! Maybe this is all just a transient effect and the real irratability (which, aside from the first couple of days, I no longer feel)and insomnia will kick in shortly. However, I don’t think this could be a placebo effect, as I never expected these kind of effects from Tren.
I was, in fact, a little concerned about some of the potential side effects I had read about Tren. However, it seems as if Tren really agrees with my system.
Other than that, I have noticed a “Tren cough” and it seems I’m hotter most of the time. I assume this is from Tren’s effects on prostaglandins.
Crowbar
Hi all…
I started the tren again at 37,5mg 2days ago… No signs of gyno, and the bump under my nipple is smaler and softer now. I feels better every day… My guess is that the gyno was caused by estrogen form the test. I injected 75mg tren this morning, and everything feels good 
Currently my cycle looks like this:
50mg winny ED
75mg Tren EOD
0,5mg armidex ED
40mg nolvadex ED
It feels great to bee back on tren again. My BW is 190 and I squated 490lbs for 3 nice reps in the gym today, and that on a 2000cal low carb diet. Everything feels great again!
thanks
//Powerman