Terror Report Released

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
So when we waterboard, we lose our “Moral Authority”.

When we kill civilians with drones, we don’t.

Do I have that right?[/quote]

Killing civilians with drones can be a genuine accident or misjudgment. Torture never is
[/quote]

“Collateral damage” is KNOWN FACT with drone strikes. Those orders are made with full knowledge that innocent people are likely to die. [/quote]

Depending on where a conflict takes place, collateral damage may always be a known fact anyway. Fighting with any conventional weapons at all in the streets of a city is likely to kill civilians.
[/quote]War is war. People die. I get it. Humans have historically and continue on in present time to use the pretext of “saving lives” as an excuse to horrible, unthinkable things to other humans. From dropping bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to the drone strikes going on right now, I would say it’s a pretty fair statement that the USA doesn’t really give a fuck about collateral damage… They may spin up a nice PR campaign, but at the end of the day, it’s still WAR.[quote]
Torture is always deliberate.
[/quote]And dropping a bomb, firing a missile and pulling the trigger on a rifle is always deliberate as well. It’s an unfortunate (for the person being tortured) part of war. Here’s an idea: don’t try to kill American citizens or associate yourself with people conspiring to kill American citizens and we will try not to torture you. How does that sound?[quote]

Where do you draw the line between torture and advanced interrogation?

[/quote]Permanent damage/disfigurement? I don’t know - everyone has a different pain threshold and different fears that can be exploited. I’d say that question is very subjective.[quote]

How do you establish rapport with detainees that already hate you as a matter of religious policy?
[/quote]If someone hates me as a matter of religious policy, I’d probably not waste my time in even trying to establish a rapport. I’d use the fact that they are fanatically religious against them and exploit that weakness. I’m afraid I’m not very sophisticated when it comes to that kind of thing. Especially when it comes to fucking terrorists who either tried, is planning to try or has succeeded in killing my fellow Americans. I’d probably just start off with a pair of pliers and work my way to the bottom of the tool box. But hey, no one has ever accused me of being subtle. I’d show the muther fucker what his left nut tasted like.[quote]

honest questions
[/quote]

And before you all start calling me an asshole, I have a friend that I used to do mortgage with who is a veteran. He was captured and held for a while before he was rescued. They went to work on HIS ball sack… No bullshit.

I believe it was Kipling who wrote:

When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains
And the women come out to cut up what remains
Just roll on your rifle and blow out your brains
And go to your Gawd like a soldier…

62

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
My Mom called me right after the attack crying, scared saying “We are under attack!” I won’t go into the whole conversation but that is how the phone call started.

Of all those victims, how many of their loved ones suffered from sleep deprivation?

How many mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, lovers were on those planes or in those buildings?

This wasn’t War, this was a cowardly act to strike fear in every American and kill as many as they could in the process. This was done by people that believe they were doing GOD work and that Americans should die!

They got off easy.[/quote]

Flying a passenger jet into a building is hardly cowardly.

Yeah, I suppose dying on impact was a pretty painless way to go.[/quote]

Really dude? If you think an act of terrorism isn’t cowardly, what’s your fucking definition of bravery?

63

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
And I take issue with the conclusion the methods used were ineffective. They have been in specific cases, but in other cases they were highly effective.

There is far from a consensus on this issue. [/quote]

I think it is a mistake for those in the anti-torture camp to debate its effectiveness. Whether torture is effective or not really isn’t the point; claiming it isn’t effective makes it seem like a relevant consideration. [/quote]

I believe that rapport based interrogation should be standard operating procedure for the intelligence and defense communities. This is because of its efficacy, not the immorality of torture. However, this approach has its limits. Torture should remain in the tool box as a last resort. In some cases, it has proven quite effective, leading directly to the aversion of attacks, along with the aquisition of critical tactical and strategic intelligence. In fact, torture led to the location of Usama bin Laden himself, along with a virtual treasure trove of intelligence. [/quote]

This is well put. It’s pretty much my sentiments as well.

64

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
So when we waterboard, we lose our “Moral Authority”.

When we kill civilians with drones, we don’t.

Do I have that right?[/quote]

Killing civilians with drones can be a genuine accident or misjudgment. Torture never is
[/quote]

“Collateral damage” is KNOWN FACT with drone strikes. Those orders are made with full knowledge that innocent people are likely to die. [/quote]

Depending on where a conflict takes place, collateral damage may always be a known fact anyway. Fighting with any conventional weapons at all in the streets of a city is likely to kill civilians.

Torture is always deliberate.

Where do you draw the line between torture and advanced interrogation?

How do you establish rapport with detainees that already hate you as a matter of religious policy?

honest questions
[/quote]

Those are good questions. And important questions. That is why we should have any array of methods and techniques able to be deployed based on individual circumstances. There should be plenty of safeguards when it comes to extreme measures. But if there is a high likelihood that critical intelligence exists, it would be foolish not to consider it.

The definition of torture indeed can be subjective.

66

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]Legalsteel wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
The “torture” WE do absolutely pales in comparison to what other countries do.

Part of the reason of why torture works is the fear of permanent disfigurement/loss of valuable body parts/functions (as in it’s harder to poop for the rest of your life once a red hot poker has been shoved up your ass). The torture we practice is based on simple fear, pain and stress - there’s an entire psychological element missing.

From a PURELY observational perspective: Of course the torture we practiced against detainees wasn’t effective! We weren’t doing it right! They feared what would happen to them once they were release MORE than they feared what we would do to them.

Parading them around nekkid? LOL Stress positions? LOL Put them in a cold room? LOL

How about pulling out their fingernails on day one to let them know we aren’t fucking around. Or shooting their buddy in the head right next to them and slaughter a pig above his corpse… THAT would be effective. Not this “we’re going to make you uncomfortable for a while” shit. These terrorists grew up in conditions harsher than what we subjected them to. OF COURSE they were able to resist and it was considered “not effective”.[/quote]

Sleep deprivation can and will break anyone. 7 days awake and you will give up your own mother. [/quote]

But that’s not TORTURE. You won’t have permanent damage from it.[/quote]

Permanent physical damage isn’t a nessesary condition for a technique to be considered torture. Have you ever been water boarded, which amounts to simulated drowning? A skilled interrogation team won’t leave a mark of physiological damage on you, which is kind of the point.
[/quote]

No, Mr. Knowitall, I haven’t been waterboarded. Have YOU? I HAVE been tied to a chair, beaten and had cigarettes put out on my skin… Does THAT make me “qualified” to participate in this discussion?

Or do I need an advanced degree to know how to torture someone properly…

I’ve had occasion to speak in depth about this topic with Col. Stuart Herrington (I’m a friend of the family) who pretty much wrote the BOOK (both literally and figuratively) on interrogation. Have YOU?[/quote]

Thank you.[/quote]

You made an asinine post that defined torture as a practice that results in “permanent damage”.

A degree in a pertinent field isn’t necessary to intelligently discuss a subject. However, a familiarity with the basic concepts and works of a discipline is. It’s tiresome to have discussions with those arguing from intuition and who dismiss the collective knowledge of scholars and practitioners outright.

Colonel Herrington has stated verbatim that water boarding is torture. Do you disagree with him? Your definition certainly does.

67

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
My Mom called me right after the attack crying, scared saying “We are under attack!” I won’t go into the whole conversation but that is how the phone call started.

Of all those victims, how many of their loved ones suffered from sleep deprivation?

How many mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, lovers were on those planes or in those buildings?

This wasn’t War, this was a cowardly act to strike fear in every American and kill as many as they could in the process. This was done by people that believe they were doing GOD work and that Americans should die!

They got off easy.[/quote]

Flying a passenger jet into a building is hardly cowardly.

Yeah, I suppose dying on impact was a pretty painless way to go.[/quote]

Jesus FUCKING Christ! Where the hell do you come from? What the fuck are you? I lost two brothers that day, burned to a FUCKING crisp, their kids without fathers and you say its a brave act to fly a plane into a building? They were FUCKING pieces of religious shit. I have been fighting these motherfuckers for ten years. You think they are “brave”? Jesus Fucking Christ.

68

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
My Mom called me right after the attack crying, scared saying “We are under attack!” I won’t go into the whole conversation but that is how the phone call started.

Of all those victims, how many of their loved ones suffered from sleep deprivation?

How many mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, lovers were on those planes or in those buildings?

This wasn’t War, this was a cowardly act to strike fear in every American and kill as many as they could in the process. This was done by people that believe they were doing GOD work and that Americans should die!

They got off easy.[/quote]

Flying a passenger jet into a building is hardly cowardly.

Yeah, I suppose dying on impact was a pretty painless way to go.[/quote]

Jesus FUCKING Christ! Where the hell do you come from? What the fuck are you? I lost two brothers that day, burned to a FUCKING crisp, their kids without fathers and you say its a brave act to fly a plane into a building? They were FUCKING pieces of religious shit. I have been fighting these motherfuckers for ten years. You think they are “brave”? Jesus Fucking Christ.
[/quote]

He didn’t say they were brave but I agree cowardly is not the right word.

69

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
My Mom called me right after the attack crying, scared saying “We are under attack!” I won’t go into the whole conversation but that is how the phone call started.

Of all those victims, how many of their loved ones suffered from sleep deprivation?

How many mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, lovers were on those planes or in those buildings?

This wasn’t War, this was a cowardly act to strike fear in every American and kill as many as they could in the process. This was done by people that believe they were doing GOD work and that Americans should die!

They got off easy.[/quote]

Flying a passenger jet into a building is hardly cowardly.

Yeah, I suppose dying on impact was a pretty painless way to go.[/quote]

Jesus FUCKING Christ! Where the hell do you come from? What the fuck are you? I lost two brothers that day, burned to a FUCKING crisp, their kids without fathers and you say its a brave act to fly a plane into a building? They were FUCKING pieces of religious shit. I have been fighting these motherfuckers for ten years. You think they are “brave”? Jesus Fucking Christ.
[/quote]

Yes “FUCKING pieces of shit” they were. Did I say they were brave? No, I don’t believe that. Bravery is noble. But to equate the commitment it takes to fly an airplane into a building with cowardice is inaccurate. The same holds true for suicide bombers. Yes, their actions and ideology are beyond despicable an they should be culled like the vermin that they are. But cowards they are not.

70

[quote]Bismark wrote:

It’s tiresome to have discussions with those arguing from intuition and who dismiss the collective knowledge of scholars and practitioners outright.

[/quote]

Then why don’t you go argue somewhere else?

71

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
My Mom called me right after the attack crying, scared saying “We are under attack!” I won’t go into the whole conversation but that is how the phone call started.

Of all those victims, how many of their loved ones suffered from sleep deprivation?

How many mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, lovers were on those planes or in those buildings?

This wasn’t War, this was a cowardly act to strike fear in every American and kill as many as they could in the process. This was done by people that believe they were doing GOD work and that Americans should die!

They got off easy.[/quote]

Flying a passenger jet into a building is hardly cowardly.

Yeah, I suppose dying on impact was a pretty painless way to go.[/quote]

Jesus FUCKING Christ! Where the hell do you come from? What the fuck are you? I lost two brothers that day, burned to a FUCKING crisp, their kids without fathers and you say its a brave act to fly a plane into a building? They were FUCKING pieces of religious shit. I have been fighting these motherfuckers for ten years. You think they are “brave”? Jesus Fucking Christ.
[/quote]

Yes “FUCKING pieces of shit” they were. Did I say they were brave? No, I don’t believe that. Bravery is noble. But to equate the commitment it takes to fly an airplane into a building with cowardice is inaccurate. The same holds true for suicide bombers. Yes, their actions and ideology are beyond despicable an they should be culled like the vermin that they are. But cowards they are not.[/quote]

Uh, yes the ARE fucking cowards. They attack the weakest among us by stealth and surprise. That is cowardly by definition. You think just because they die during the process they aren’t cowards? That’s some fucking bullshit! They are brainwashed religious fanatics. They are told that they will get their 77 virgins in the afterlife and that their families will be taken care of in this life. So they take the easy way out.

If they wanted 77 virgins, they should come up with an idea to make a lot of money, and fuck 77 virgins - but they cant.

If they want their family taken care of, they should learn a skill and get a fucking JOB - but they are stupid and they cant.

If they want to fight “western influence” they can go fight our soldiers, support politicians that don’t let US build bases in their countries, etc… BUT THEY CANT - it’s easier to sneak attack civilians and blow up a bunch of innocent people.

There are other options than terrorism. Terrorism is BY FAR the “easiest” option. And the option requiring the least intelligence and effort.

THESE PEOPLE (and I hesitate to call these vermin “people”) ARE THE DEFINITION OF COWARDS.

I would torture (and I don’t mean waterboard) the shit out of these fuckers for fun if I could for what they’ve done to our country…

72

[quote]angry chicken wrote:
THESE PEOPLE (and I hesitate to call these vermin “people”) ARE THE DEFINITION OF COWARDS.
[/quote]

I can’t believe this conversation is necessary. No matter how you slice it or dice it purposefully targeting and killing unarmed civilians is an act of cowardice, period.

73

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
My Mom called me right after the attack crying, scared saying “We are under attack!” I won’t go into the whole conversation but that is how the phone call started.

Of all those victims, how many of their loved ones suffered from sleep deprivation?

How many mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, lovers were on those planes or in those buildings?

This wasn’t War, this was a cowardly act to strike fear in every American and kill as many as they could in the process. This was done by people that believe they were doing GOD work and that Americans should die!

They got off easy.[/quote]

Flying a passenger jet into a building is hardly cowardly.

Yeah, I suppose dying on impact was a pretty painless way to go.[/quote]

Jesus FUCKING Christ! Where the hell do you come from? What the fuck are you? I lost two brothers that day, burned to a FUCKING crisp, their kids without fathers and you say its a brave act to fly a plane into a building? They were FUCKING pieces of religious shit. I have been fighting these motherfuckers for ten years. You think they are “brave”? Jesus Fucking Christ.
[/quote]

My deepest condolences for you dude, seriously I cannot wrap my head around what you lost that day.

That is why we needed to handle this like a bunch of fucking gangsters, and for all the shit Bush and Cheney took on how they handled this, it’s the main reason we haven’t had more attacks.

This whole report was just one last jab at Bush from the outgoing Senate Dems, it worked well campaign-wise the last time they did it, and the Dems are looking for something to rally behind.

74

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
My Mom called me right after the attack crying, scared saying “We are under attack!” I won’t go into the whole conversation but that is how the phone call started.

Of all those victims, how many of their loved ones suffered from sleep deprivation?

How many mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, lovers were on those planes or in those buildings?

This wasn’t War, this was a cowardly act to strike fear in every American and kill as many as they could in the process. This was done by people that believe they were doing GOD work and that Americans should die!

They got off easy.[/quote]

Flying a passenger jet into a building is hardly cowardly.

Yeah, I suppose dying on impact was a pretty painless way to go.[/quote]

Jesus FUCKING Christ! Where the hell do you come from? What the fuck are you? I lost two brothers that day, burned to a FUCKING crisp, their kids without fathers and you say its a brave act to fly a plane into a building? They were FUCKING pieces of religious shit. I have been fighting these motherfuckers for ten years. You think they are “brave”? Jesus Fucking Christ.
[/quote]

My deepest condolences for you dude, seriously I cannot wrap my head around what you lost that day.

That is why we needed to handle this like a bunch of fucking gangsters, and for all the shit Bush and Cheney took on how they handled this, it’s the main reason we haven’t had more attacks.

This whole report was just one last jab at Bush from the outgoing Senate Dems, it worked well campaign-wise the last time they did it, and the Dems are looking for something to rally behind.[/quote]

AND something to distract the MSLM from Gruber’s testimony…

75

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
My Mom called me right after the attack crying, scared saying “We are under attack!” I won’t go into the whole conversation but that is how the phone call started.

Of all those victims, how many of their loved ones suffered from sleep deprivation?

How many mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, lovers were on those planes or in those buildings?

This wasn’t War, this was a cowardly act to strike fear in every American and kill as many as they could in the process. This was done by people that believe they were doing GOD work and that Americans should die!

They got off easy.[/quote]

Flying a passenger jet into a building is hardly cowardly.

Yeah, I suppose dying on impact was a pretty painless way to go.[/quote]

Jesus FUCKING Christ! Where the hell do you come from? What the fuck are you? I lost two brothers that day, burned to a FUCKING crisp, their kids without fathers and you say its a brave act to fly a plane into a building? They were FUCKING pieces of religious shit. I have been fighting these motherfuckers for ten years. You think they are “brave”? Jesus Fucking Christ.
[/quote]

My deepest condolences for you dude, seriously I cannot wrap my head around what you lost that day.

That is why we needed to handle this like a bunch of fucking gangsters, and for all the shit Bush and Cheney took on how they handled this, it’s the main reason we haven’t had more attacks.

This whole report was just one last jab at Bush from the outgoing Senate Dems, it worked well campaign-wise the last time they did it, and the Dems are looking for something to rally behind.[/quote]

AND something to distract the MSLM from Gruber’s testimony…
[/quote]

That guy (Gruber) is the gift that keeps on giving. These morons have to realize that they cannot claim to forget what they said, not with Youtube and the web.

76

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
My Mom called me right after the attack crying, scared saying “We are under attack!” I won’t go into the whole conversation but that is how the phone call started.

Of all those victims, how many of their loved ones suffered from sleep deprivation?

How many mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, lovers were on those planes or in those buildings?

This wasn’t War, this was a cowardly act to strike fear in every American and kill as many as they could in the process. This was done by people that believe they were doing GOD work and that Americans should die!

They got off easy.[/quote]

Flying a passenger jet into a building is hardly cowardly.

Yeah, I suppose dying on impact was a pretty painless way to go.[/quote]

Jesus FUCKING Christ! Where the hell do you come from? What the fuck are you? I lost two brothers that day, burned to a FUCKING crisp, their kids without fathers and you say its a brave act to fly a plane into a building? They were FUCKING pieces of religious shit. I have been fighting these motherfuckers for ten years. You think they are “brave”? Jesus Fucking Christ.
[/quote]

My deepest condolences for you dude, seriously I cannot wrap my head around what you lost that day.

That is why we needed to handle this like a bunch of fucking gangsters, and for all the shit Bush and Cheney took on how they handled this, it’s the main reason we haven’t had more attacks.

This whole report was just one last jab at Bush from the outgoing Senate Dems, it worked well campaign-wise the last time they did it, and the Dems are looking for something to rally behind.[/quote]

AND something to distract the MSLM from Gruber’s testimony…
[/quote]

That guy (Gruber) is the gift that keeps on giving. These morons have to realize that they cannot claim to forget what they said, not with Youtube and the web.
[/quote]

I really don’t like how he’s been allowed to not give straight answers, just keeps forgetting all this stuff he’s worked on for the past couple of years

77

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]mbdix wrote:
My Mom called me right after the attack crying, scared saying “We are under attack!” I won’t go into the whole conversation but that is how the phone call started.

Of all those victims, how many of their loved ones suffered from sleep deprivation?

How many mothers, fathers, daughters, sons, sisters, brothers, lovers were on those planes or in those buildings?

This wasn’t War, this was a cowardly act to strike fear in every American and kill as many as they could in the process. This was done by people that believe they were doing GOD work and that Americans should die!

They got off easy.[/quote]

Flying a passenger jet into a building is hardly cowardly.

Yeah, I suppose dying on impact was a pretty painless way to go.[/quote]

Jesus FUCKING Christ! Where the hell do you come from? What the fuck are you? I lost two brothers that day, burned to a FUCKING crisp, their kids without fathers and you say its a brave act to fly a plane into a building? They were FUCKING pieces of religious shit. I have been fighting these motherfuckers for ten years. You think they are “brave”? Jesus Fucking Christ.
[/quote]

My deepest condolences for you dude, seriously I cannot wrap my head around what you lost that day.

That is why we needed to handle this like a bunch of fucking gangsters, and for all the shit Bush and Cheney took on how they handled this, it’s the main reason we haven’t had more attacks.

This whole report was just one last jab at Bush from the outgoing Senate Dems, it worked well campaign-wise the last time they did it, and the Dems are looking for something to rally behind.[/quote]

AND something to distract the MSLM from Gruber’s testimony…
[/quote]

That guy (Gruber) is the gift that keeps on giving. These morons have to realize that they cannot claim to forget what they said, not with Youtube and the web.
[/quote]

Doesn’t matter, no one’s paying attention, at least not the masses.
All focus is on the CIA documents. The democrats are incredible politicians…Seriously just look at the last 8 years. If it was even close to moral and ethical they’d literally be teaching this in the classroom.

78

For those who think our methods are “torture,” ISIS just beheaded 4 Christian children for not renouncing Jesus and join Islam.

79

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
For those who think our methods are “torture,” ISIS just beheaded 4 Christian children for not renouncing Jesus and join Islam.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/12/islamic-state-terrorists-behead-4-christian-kids/[/quote]

I like to judge the standards of our leaders by the standards of civilized people, not the standards of barbarians. That’s my personal preference, anyway.

80

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
For those who think our methods are “torture,” ISIS just beheaded 4 Christian children for not renouncing Jesus and join Islam.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/12/islamic-state-terrorists-behead-4-christian-kids/[/quote]

I like to judge the standards of our leaders by the standards of civilized people, not the standards of barbarians. That’s my personal preference, anyway. [/quote]

Absolutely. Even advocates of so called “enhanced interrogation techniques” (myself included) should be honest enough to admit what it amounts to - torture.