[quote]Legalsteel wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
I’m concerned about the reactions / future behavior of those governments who assisted with this, and will now be on the spot.[/quote]
The British reaction has been to run as fast and as far in the opposite direction as is possible.
I can’t speak for other implicated countries. [/quote]
Not sure if this applies, but SAS have been targeting ISIS, pretty cool story
http://allenbwest.com/2014/11/attacks-quad-bikes-uk-sas-shows-kick-isis-butt/
So when we waterboard, we lose our “Moral Authority”.
When we kill civilians with drones, we don’t.
Do I have that right?
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
So when we waterboard, we lose our “Moral Authority”.
When we kill civilians with drones, we don’t.
Do I have that right?[/quote]
1/2 right.
The problem with our tactics is they have been widely available to the public for a while.
Waterboarding, sleep deprivation, being locked in a small box in a cold room, being paraded around naked, and all of those things have been done to our own guys for training.
There are some problems with the methodologies. For one, they are roughly based on good cop, bad cop and Hans Scharff techniques which were used by the Luftwaffe against us with great success. Problem is, he’s published as are his exploits and techniques. His methods were used on Westerners, and the training done in SERE/ our counter interrogation/ Survival Evasion Resistance Escape methods have been known by the enemy, as well as the public since around 98’ when Maxim Magazine spilled the beans.
To a large degree we have never been able to establish good cop relations with those we detain, and as a result of how loosely and how much our techniques were aired, the worst they have looked… When, in reality our methods of torture/ enhanced interrogation are very mild. All we are going to have as a result are more black sites, and more of our prisoners disappearing to other nations where the magnifying glass isn’t pointed (this is already happening).
So, just waiting until this hits the fan… Likely nobody will care so long as we simply have some other nation do it for us.
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
So when we waterboard, we lose our “Moral Authority”.
When we kill civilians with drones, we don’t.
Do I have that right?[/quote]
Killing civilians with drones can be a genuine accident or misjudgment. Torture never is
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]Legalsteel wrote:
[quote]Chushin wrote:
I’m concerned about the reactions / future behavior of those governments who assisted with this, and will now be on the spot.[/quote]
The British reaction has been to run as fast and as far in the opposite direction as is possible.
I can’t speak for other implicated countries. [/quote]
Yeah, like MI6 hasn’t ever roughed up detainees. [/quote]
Dude, I am a Northern Irish catholic, no need to preach to the converted.
[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
So when we waterboard, we lose our “Moral Authority”.
When we kill civilians with drones, we don’t.
Do I have that right?[/quote]
Killing civilians with drones can be a genuine accident or misjudgment. Torture never is
[/quote]
“Collateral damage” is KNOWN FACT with drone strikes. Those orders are made with full knowledge that innocent people are likely to die.
The “torture” WE do absolutely pales in comparison to what other countries do.
Part of the reason of why torture works is the fear of permanent disfigurement/loss of valuable body parts/functions (as in it’s harder to poop for the rest of your life once a red hot poker has been shoved up your ass). The torture we practice is based on simple fear, pain and stress - there’s an entire psychological element missing.
From a PURELY observational perspective: Of course the torture we practiced against detainees wasn’t effective! We weren’t doing it right! They feared what would happen to them once they were release MORE than they feared what we would do to them.
Parading them around nekkid? LOL Stress positions? LOL Put them in a cold room? LOL
How about pulling out their fingernails on day one to let them know we aren’t fucking around. Or shooting their buddy in the head right next to them and slaughter a pig above his corpse… THAT would be effective. Not this “we’re going to make you uncomfortable for a while” shit. These terrorists grew up in conditions harsher than what we subjected them to. OF COURSE they were able to resist and it was considered “not effective”.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
The “torture” WE do absolutely pales in comparison to what other countries do.
Part of the reason of why torture works is the fear of permanent disfigurement/loss of valuable body parts/functions (as in it’s harder to poop for the rest of your life once a red hot poker has been shoved up your ass). The torture we practice is based on simple fear, pain and stress - there’s an entire psychological element missing.
From a PURELY observational perspective: Of course the torture we practiced against detainees wasn’t effective! We weren’t doing it right! They feared what would happen to them once they were release MORE than they feared what we would do to them.
Parading them around nekkid? LOL Stress positions? LOL Put them in a cold room? LOL
How about pulling out their fingernails on day one to let them know we aren’t fucking around. Or shooting their buddy in the head right next to them and slaughter a pig above his corpse… THAT would be effective. Not this “we’re going to make you uncomfortable for a while” shit. These terrorists grew up in conditions harsher than what we subjected them to. OF COURSE they were able to resist and it was considered “not effective”.[/quote]
Sleep deprivation can and will break anyone. 7 days awake and you will give up your own mother.
[quote]Legalsteel wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
The “torture” WE do absolutely pales in comparison to what other countries do.
Part of the reason of why torture works is the fear of permanent disfigurement/loss of valuable body parts/functions (as in it’s harder to poop for the rest of your life once a red hot poker has been shoved up your ass). The torture we practice is based on simple fear, pain and stress - there’s an entire psychological element missing.
From a PURELY observational perspective: Of course the torture we practiced against detainees wasn’t effective! We weren’t doing it right! They feared what would happen to them once they were release MORE than they feared what we would do to them.
Parading them around nekkid? LOL Stress positions? LOL Put them in a cold room? LOL
How about pulling out their fingernails on day one to let them know we aren’t fucking around. Or shooting their buddy in the head right next to them and slaughter a pig above his corpse… THAT would be effective. Not this “we’re going to make you uncomfortable for a while” shit. These terrorists grew up in conditions harsher than what we subjected them to. OF COURSE they were able to resist and it was considered “not effective”.[/quote]
Sleep deprivation can and will break anyone. 7 days awake and you will give up your own mother. [/quote]
But that’s not TORTURE. You won’t have permanent damage from it.
[quote]Legalsteel wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
The “torture” WE do absolutely pales in comparison to what other countries do.
Part of the reason of why torture works is the fear of permanent disfigurement/loss of valuable body parts/functions (as in it’s harder to poop for the rest of your life once a red hot poker has been shoved up your ass). The torture we practice is based on simple fear, pain and stress - there’s an entire psychological element missing.
From a PURELY observational perspective: Of course the torture we practiced against detainees wasn’t effective! We weren’t doing it right! They feared what would happen to them once they were release MORE than they feared what we would do to them.
Parading them around nekkid? LOL Stress positions? LOL Put them in a cold room? LOL
How about pulling out their fingernails on day one to let them know we aren’t fucking around. Or shooting their buddy in the head right next to them and slaughter a pig above his corpse… THAT would be effective. Not this “we’re going to make you uncomfortable for a while” shit. These terrorists grew up in conditions harsher than what we subjected them to. OF COURSE they were able to resist and it was considered “not effective”.[/quote]
Sleep deprivation can and will break anyone. 7 days awake and you will give up your own mother. [/quote]
The thing is among the easy and hard ways of doing things… That is the easy way…
Now, what if you don’t have 7 days?
Information this day and age is highly perishable. Some of what people have is information about things that might give us windows of opportunity for action, rather than long term insight, locations, logistics, etc.
What do you think will happen to people now? They will be shipped off to black sites never to be heard from again, and we WERE doing it the easy way in the big picture considering techniques out there used by non western nations. People are sick, you don’t even want to know.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Legalsteel wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
The “torture” WE do absolutely pales in comparison to what other countries do.
Part of the reason of why torture works is the fear of permanent disfigurement/loss of valuable body parts/functions (as in it’s harder to poop for the rest of your life once a red hot poker has been shoved up your ass). The torture we practice is based on simple fear, pain and stress - there’s an entire psychological element missing.
From a PURELY observational perspective: Of course the torture we practiced against detainees wasn’t effective! We weren’t doing it right! They feared what would happen to them once they were release MORE than they feared what we would do to them.
Parading them around nekkid? LOL Stress positions? LOL Put them in a cold room? LOL
How about pulling out their fingernails on day one to let them know we aren’t fucking around. Or shooting their buddy in the head right next to them and slaughter a pig above his corpse… THAT would be effective. Not this “we’re going to make you uncomfortable for a while” shit. These terrorists grew up in conditions harsher than what we subjected them to. OF COURSE they were able to resist and it was considered “not effective”.[/quote]
Sleep deprivation can and will break anyone. 7 days awake and you will give up your own mother. [/quote]
But that’s not TORTURE. You won’t have permanent damage from it.[/quote]
Permanent physical damage isn’t a nessesary condition for a technique to be considered torture. Have you ever been water boarded, which amounts to simulated drowning? A skilled interrogation team won’t leave a mark of physiological damage on you, which is kind of the point.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
But that’s not TORTURE. You won’t have permanent damage from it.[/quote]
Psychological damage can be permanent.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Facepalm_Death wrote:
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
So when we waterboard, we lose our “Moral Authority”.
When we kill civilians with drones, we don’t.
Do I have that right?[/quote]
Killing civilians with drones can be a genuine accident or misjudgment. Torture never is
[/quote]
“Collateral damage” is KNOWN FACT with drone strikes. Those orders are made with full knowledge that innocent people are likely to die. [/quote]l
Drones are used in leiu of fixed wing piloted aircraft in targeted killings because collateral damage can be minimized or eliminated by the concentrated kill radius of their ordinance and their ability to circle a target area for hours. That’s part of their appeal.
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
Not everyone is saying this.
The semantics about what is called torture vs. advanced interrogation have been a matter for black comedy rather than serious discussion amongst many people the whole time - in many peoples’ opinions waterboarding and sleep deprivation have always been and always will be torture.
So what is in a name? Everyone but the Neo-cons called it torture already and most people around the worlds opinions had already included the assumption that the US government tortured people…
So why would someone attack the US now for something they knew was happening all along?
[quote]NorCal916 wrote:
So is this a way of the out-going dems to take a dump on the carpet, break the windows and kick in the doors on their way out??
If everyone is saying that this will cause violence and death, is releasing it to “cleanse our past sins” worth it?
What can be the motivation behind this?
What will be the foreign policy fall-out going forward?[/quote]
Well… in the CIA cat & mouse game in foreign outposts where the players have a good idea of who’s who on the other side, this can’t be good for anyone that we have out in the field. This could also be a huge form of leverage to get rid of Gitmo.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Legalsteel wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
The “torture” WE do absolutely pales in comparison to what other countries do.
Part of the reason of why torture works is the fear of permanent disfigurement/loss of valuable body parts/functions (as in it’s harder to poop for the rest of your life once a red hot poker has been shoved up your ass). The torture we practice is based on simple fear, pain and stress - there’s an entire psychological element missing.
From a PURELY observational perspective: Of course the torture we practiced against detainees wasn’t effective! We weren’t doing it right! They feared what would happen to them once they were release MORE than they feared what we would do to them.
Parading them around nekkid? LOL Stress positions? LOL Put them in a cold room? LOL
How about pulling out their fingernails on day one to let them know we aren’t fucking around. Or shooting their buddy in the head right next to them and slaughter a pig above his corpse… THAT would be effective. Not this “we’re going to make you uncomfortable for a while” shit. These terrorists grew up in conditions harsher than what we subjected them to. OF COURSE they were able to resist and it was considered “not effective”.[/quote]
Sleep deprivation can and will break anyone. 7 days awake and you will give up your own mother. [/quote]
But that’s not TORTURE. You won’t have permanent damage from it.[/quote]
Permanent physical damage isn’t a nessesary condition for a technique to be considered torture. Have you ever been water boarded, which amounts to simulated drowning? A skilled interrogation team won’t leave a mark of physiological damage on you, which is kind of the point.
[/quote]
I’m pretty familiar with this stuff. The non direct physical stuff is usually a combination of a lot of things, sleep deprivation, being kept cold, isolation, being forced to hold stressful positions, sensory deprivation, and all kinds of forms of humiliation, nothing is hands off. There is some being handled roughly but notice these techniques specifically lack actual physical inflicting of harm. Mostly the threat of it.
The physical stuff, that is in general off hands to us are things we also feign for psychological effect. So, while we threaten with things like drills, hammers, electric probes, there are others that actually use them. This is where things get super ugly, leave it to someone with a very sick imagination and it can be done. This aspect is literally a dark part of our history as humans… We have been making torture devices and using methods of torture for a very, very long time.
So, being sleep deprived, listing to Metallica and Red Hot Chili Peppers at a high volume, and sticking things up your rectum…
Sounds like the American college student experience.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Legalsteel wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
The “torture” WE do absolutely pales in comparison to what other countries do.
Part of the reason of why torture works is the fear of permanent disfigurement/loss of valuable body parts/functions (as in it’s harder to poop for the rest of your life once a red hot poker has been shoved up your ass). The torture we practice is based on simple fear, pain and stress - there’s an entire psychological element missing.
From a PURELY observational perspective: Of course the torture we practiced against detainees wasn’t effective! We weren’t doing it right! They feared what would happen to them once they were release MORE than they feared what we would do to them.
Parading them around nekkid? LOL Stress positions? LOL Put them in a cold room? LOL
How about pulling out their fingernails on day one to let them know we aren’t fucking around. Or shooting their buddy in the head right next to them and slaughter a pig above his corpse… THAT would be effective. Not this “we’re going to make you uncomfortable for a while” shit. These terrorists grew up in conditions harsher than what we subjected them to. OF COURSE they were able to resist and it was considered “not effective”.[/quote]
Sleep deprivation can and will break anyone. 7 days awake and you will give up your own mother. [/quote]
But that’s not TORTURE. You won’t have permanent damage from it.[/quote]
Permanent physical damage isn’t a nessesary condition for a technique to be considered torture. Have you ever been water boarded, which amounts to simulated drowning? A skilled interrogation team won’t leave a mark of physiological damage on you, which is kind of the point.
[/quote]
I’m pretty familiar with this stuff. The non direct physical stuff is usually a combination of a lot of things, sleep deprivation, being kept cold, isolation, being forced to hold stressful positions, sensory deprivation, and all kinds of forms of humiliation, nothing is hands off. There is some being handled roughly but notice these techniques specifically lack actual physical inflicting of harm. Mostly the threat of it.
The physical stuff, that is in general off hands to us are things we also feign for psychological effect. So, while we threaten with things like drills, hammers, electric probes, there are others that actually use them. This is where things get super ugly, leave it to someone with a very sick imagination and it can be done. This aspect is literally a dark part of our history as humans… We have been making torture devices and using methods of torture for a very, very long time.
[/quote]
My point isn’t that waterboarding, sleep deprivation, etc are not effective AT ALL. My point is that going medieval on their ass would be MORE effective.
[quote]Bismark wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
[quote]Legalsteel wrote:
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
The “torture” WE do absolutely pales in comparison to what other countries do.
Part of the reason of why torture works is the fear of permanent disfigurement/loss of valuable body parts/functions (as in it’s harder to poop for the rest of your life once a red hot poker has been shoved up your ass). The torture we practice is based on simple fear, pain and stress - there’s an entire psychological element missing.
From a PURELY observational perspective: Of course the torture we practiced against detainees wasn’t effective! We weren’t doing it right! They feared what would happen to them once they were release MORE than they feared what we would do to them.
Parading them around nekkid? LOL Stress positions? LOL Put them in a cold room? LOL
How about pulling out their fingernails on day one to let them know we aren’t fucking around. Or shooting their buddy in the head right next to them and slaughter a pig above his corpse… THAT would be effective. Not this “we’re going to make you uncomfortable for a while” shit. These terrorists grew up in conditions harsher than what we subjected them to. OF COURSE they were able to resist and it was considered “not effective”.[/quote]
Sleep deprivation can and will break anyone. 7 days awake and you will give up your own mother. [/quote]
But that’s not TORTURE. You won’t have permanent damage from it.[/quote]
Permanent physical damage isn’t a nessesary condition for a technique to be considered torture. Have you ever been water boarded, which amounts to simulated drowning? A skilled interrogation team won’t leave a mark of physiological damage on you, which is kind of the point.
[/quote]
No, Mr. Knowitall, I haven’t been waterboarded. Have YOU? I HAVE been tied to a chair, beaten and had cigarettes put out on my skin… Does THAT make me “qualified” to participate in this discussion?
Or do I need an advanced degree to know how to torture someone properly…
I’ve had occasion to speak in depth about this topic with Col. Stuart Herrington (I’m a friend of the family) who pretty much wrote the BOOK (both literally and figuratively) on interrogation. Have YOU?