[quote]NinjaTreeFrog wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Keep in mind that socialism FORCES one man to serve another through taxation, then redistribution. Taxation puts a claim on part of a man’s lifespan. After all, the man has had to use his time (something we only have a limited amount of before we’re dead) to produce those taxes. To add further insult, he watches it redistributed away. Often enough, to people who expect a whole hell of alot more out of everyone else, than they do of themselves. Also, in these discussions I’ve noticed that I’m to be forced into responsibility for the needy, but they have no responsibility towards me.
How could I possibly be considered free in such a system? They have laid claim to part of my life.
Very well put. I think I’m really starting to understand the American concept of Liberty. I’ll be honest, I’ve never really given this much thought before. However, I still have an objection to the realism of the ideal. Which is essentially what Liberty is - an ideal.
Think about this. Liberty for all would theoretically be a valid concept if all the citizens in a society started with essentially the same resources and opportunity. Then the fruits of one’s labor should be his and his alone. Some will do better than others due to hard work and innovation, and some will be lazy and lose it all. And then I agree. Why should the lazy benefit from the hard work of someone else? Why should wealth be redistributed? They were free to do nothing, they should suffer the consequences.
But the real world doesn’t work that way. We live in a world where some people have had all sorts of opportunities piled on them, with all the tools and education necessary to succeed in life. Then we have the groups that have been shit on for years upon years. Liberty wasn’t granted to the Native American, or the African, or the Chinese or Mexican laborers. For decades Liberty was granted only to the Protestant white man. While those blessed with Liberty acquired their property and status, they simultaneously held down others and benefited from the labor of the non-white non-protestant. Only recently in history Liberty was granted to all (although some may argue this point). But the game’s already been fixed. The outcome is easy to determine. Those whose families have the wealth - regardless of how that wealth was acquired - fight tooth and nail for Liberty because it benefits them. They can use their influence to keep the game fixed.
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It’s refreshing to have someone as open minded as yourself.
Liberty is not granted to anyone. Liberty is the birthright of all men by nature’s God. Note I do not say the Christian God. I could expand the nature’s God bit, but that’s not the point of the post. Suffice it to say that it’s a rule of nature, much like gravity. You are born into this world with certain inalienable rights. Governments come to pass to protect those rights from others, but eventually all government seems to get the idea that they grant the rights and tyranny ensues.
Our Bill of Rights enumerate several of those rights. They are rights common to all men worldwide.
As for some men coming into the earth with unequal opportunities, this is true. Where we cross paths is in the matter of perspective. You are looking at this from a very materialistic standpoint. Fairness and liberty are two separate concepts. In order to achieve fairness, you must violate liberty. The idea of liberty is primarily based around one major principle: you own your own body. From here, gentlemen may disagree, but the main idea is that you own your own body. This allows you do do anything you wish so long as you do not violate anyone else’s liberty.
Where liberty and fairness collide is when fairness dictates that a sovereign individual with rights to his body and his actions, behaves in a particular way in order to make things fair for someone else. In order to make things fair we would have to put everyone on the same level from the moment of birth. But in order to do that you would have to tell me what I can or cannot do with my body and the property I secured honestly. Do you see where I’m going with this? It’s a shame that the world isn’t fair, but no amount of violating people’s rights will make it that way.
mike