You can’t be polite to those who perceive politeness as a weakness. Obama surrounds himself with Marxists and former terrorists – we should be polite to them?
To Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid? To Howard Dean?
LOL!! Fuck that.
Okay, maybe I’m out of line here, but being a Canadian living in the USA I have some difficulty understanding the GOP position. First off I don’t mean to offend - I’m just trying to understand. According to the Republican philosophy, illegal immigrants slipping through the system and getting healthcare is morally reprehensible, but the killing of innocent women and children in Iraq and Afganistan is acceptable collatoral damage? Does this seem like it makes sense to anyone?
So what if a few bad apples and get cared for if the majority of your countrymen can expect decent health care at an affordable cost. No system is perfect, but this fear over socialism and illegal immigrants seems irrational to me. I think Obama is trying to make the USA a better place for all its citizen’s - not just the well off. My two cents. I’ll shut up now.
Bad form, breach of protocol, and achieves nothing.
We don’t have the House of Commons.
It was rude and stupid, he was right to apologize, and the House should reprimand him.
[quote]skaz05 wrote:
This is funny. If Wilson had stood up and shouted “That’s the truth!” or “GO BARRY O!” or “Hooray Mr. President!” it wouldn’t be an issue.
[/quote]
It would be an issue. Notice how no one did that? There is such a thing as decorum, and regardless of what was said, it was wrong to say it.
Ninja I think the main difference with your opinion is that while the situation in Irag and Afghanistan is horrible, this issue affects us here in the US on our own soil. While Obama might be trying to make it better for citizens, there are those who aren’t citizens, who don’t follow the laws and procedures put in place to keep order. I came here from another country and had to do it legally with proper documentation. My family had enough respect to not cheat, even if it meant it would be harder in the beginning for us.
What you call fear of socialism is more like disagreement and downright disgust for it here. People left Europe because of Socialism, did you happen to consider that in your opinion? The US leads the world in economy, and it is based on lack of Socialism. No other language in the world is readily taught and known next to English, along with the dollar being the benchmark for currency. This is not an accident, we kick ass because our system allows us to kick ass.
[quote]NinjaTreeFrog wrote:
Okay, maybe I’m out of line here, but being a Canadian living in the USA I have some difficulty understanding the GOP position. First off I don’t mean to offend - I’m just trying to understand. According to the Republican philosophy, illegal immigrants slipping through the system and getting healthcare is morally reprehensible, but the killing of innocent women and children in Iraq and Afganistan is acceptable collatoral damage? Does this seem like it makes sense to anyone?
So what if a few bad apples and get cared for if the majority of your countrymen can expect decent health care at an affordable cost. No system is perfect, but this fear over socialism and illegal immigrants seems irrational to me. I think Obama is trying to make the USA a better place for all its citizen’s - not just the well off. My two cents. I’ll shut up now.[/quote]
[quote]NinjaTreeFrog wrote:
Okay, maybe I’m out of line here, but being a Canadian living in the USA I have some difficulty understanding the GOP position. First off I don’t mean to offend - I’m just trying to understand. According to the Republican philosophy, illegal immigrants slipping through the system and getting healthcare is morally reprehensible, but the killing of innocent women and children in Iraq and Afganistan is acceptable collatoral damage? Does this seem like it makes sense to anyone?
So what if a few bad apples and get cared for if the majority of your countrymen can expect decent health care at an affordable cost. No system is perfect, but this fear over socialism and illegal immigrants seems irrational to me. I think Obama is trying to make the USA a better place for all its citizen’s - not just the well off. My two cents. I’ll shut up now.[/quote]
Hah. At your comparison. A better one would be why do the libs (going by obama’s stance) try and deny healthcare to live born American infants and provide it to non-citizen adults currently breaking the law.
Whether it will be decent or affordable is quite the logical jump. There are a lot of people that predict otherwise.
We as Americans happen to feel that socialism violates the basic human right of liberty man is entitled to. We are for the most part not willing to sacrifice what we consider human rights for peace of mind.
I’d rather be free and poor than in a golden prison (not that socialism actually yields wealth)
Canada care happens to be imploding right now by the way.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Ninja I think the main difference with your opinion is that while the situation in Irag and Afghanistan is horrible, this issue affects us here in the US on our own soil. While Obama might be trying to make it better for citizens, there are those who aren’t citizens, who don’t follow the laws and procedures put in place to keep order. I came here from another country and had to do it legally with proper documentation. My family had enough respect to not cheat, even if it meant it would be harder in the beginning for us.
What you call fear of socialism is more like disagreement and downright disgust for it here. People left Europe because of Socialism, did you happen to consider that in your opinion? The US leads the world in economy, and it is based on lack of Socialism. No other language in the world is readily taught and known next to English, along with the dollar being the benchmark for currency. This is not an accident, we kick ass because our system allows us to kick ass.[/quote]
SOME people left Europe because of Socialism - not ALL people. Many left Europe for the new world in search of opportunities that did not exist in Europe. Or political persecution. Or a plethora of other reasons.
Your comment about English being the predominant language spoken in the world has more to do with the expansion of the British empire than US dominance. It’s called English for a reason.
The dollar as the benchmark currency is a product of an alliance with Saudi Arabia regarding oil distribution. Again, not necessarily due to the capitalist nature of the US. Also, the current economic crisis is putting the US dollar’s fate as the global currency standard in jeopardy. If the Euro becomes the energy trading currency - which some analysts predict - would you argue that this proves that the socialist European economy is superior?
In my opinion, the reason the US kicks ass is due to its diversity, innovative spirit, and hardworking attitude. The people I’ve met here are some of the hardest working people I know. Most of them have hearts as big as Texas and would give you the shirt off their backs if you asked. But this could very well be the nature of an American regardless of socialized medicine. It’s not the boogie-man its made out to be, is all I’m saying.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Hah. At your comparison. A better one would be why do the libs (going by obama’s stance) try and deny healthcare to live born American infants and provide it to non-citizen adults currently breaking the law.
[/quote]
I haven’t heard this. Sounds like political rhetoric to me.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Whether it will be decent or affordable is quite the logical jump. There are a lot of people that predict otherwise.
[/quote]
Good point, but is the current system that leaves hardworking citizens without healthcare, or denied healthcare by their insurers acceptable to you? If it is, then so be it.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
We as Americans happen to feel that socialism violates the basic human right of liberty man is entitled to. We are for the most part not willing to sacrifice what we consider human rights for peace of mind.
I’d rather be free and poor than in a golden prison (not that socialism actually yields wealth)
[/quote]
I don’t understand how socialized medicine violates basic human rights of liberty. Could you eleborate for me?
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Canada care happens to be imploding right now by the way.
[/quote]
There are interests in Canada that would like to introduce a privatized option to health care and are spreading fear regarding the Canadian health care system for their own agenda. Although the system isn’t perfect, it’s not “imploding” as you so-dramatically put it. There are challenges that need to be addressed, but as a nation Canadians will come to some arrangement that will best meet the current needs of the stressed health care system. By the way, many of the challenges are due to the Baby Boomers. Retirement leads to a loss of skilled workers in the hospitals and clinics as well as an disproportionate aging population that needs more care. It’s not something inherently wrong with public healthcare - its a product of the times.
If Europe had it right, people would not have wanted to leave.
My reference to the dollar and language was meant to show how the American system is not as bad as Libs would like to make it.
These big hearted people apparently didn’t make enough room to follow our laws, and while they might give you their shirt, you can take your pants and wallet at the same time. Socialism is great, until you run out of someone else’s money.
[quote]apbt55 wrote:
forlife wrote:
There’s a time and a place for disagreeing on political issues, and Joe Wilson was out of line. Agree with him or not, his behavior hurt him and his cause, which is why he is now apologizing for it.
Normally I would agree, but with the circumstances mounting as they have there isn’t a better forum:
-
The media will not cover people who oppose him very much so he will not be heard that way.
-
If he catches him without a prescripted speach he may really have to answer something without a teleprompter.
I think they really need to start giving it to the administration.
shouting is better than fighting(I suppose)and if the first doesn’t occur the later will.[/quote]
Indeed. These are nearly life and death matters for the republic
Okay, I didn’t want to be in the center of fire, but I did ask for it I guess.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
If Europe had it right, people would not have wanted to leave.
[/quote]
Many people didn’t leave Europe and don’t wish to. Some people leave the US to live abroad. What does this imply about the fundamental nature of socialized healthcare? Absolutely nothing.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
My reference to the dollar and language was meant to show how the American system is not as bad as Libs would like to make it.
[/quote]
I don’t see how these things can even be used in a discussion about healthcare. They’re not connected. They don’t impact the debate.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
These big hearted people apparently didn’t make enough room to follow our laws, and while they might give you their shirt, you can take your pants and wallet at the same time. Socialism is great, until you run out of someone else’s money.[/quote]
The big hearted people I was referring to are my collaegues and friends. Legal, hardworking, taxpaying citizens of the US. I can assure you that none of them are interested in taking my pants or wallet. Also, you’re implication that socialism breeds nothing but leeches on the system is rather offensive. Many countries in this world are socialist and have a large proportion of hardworking, innovative, moral and loving people. Take Canada and the US. In many ways we’re very much alike. Our culture, food, diversity, religions, etc. are shared experiences. We are also partners in business, foreign affairs, regional security, and other things I haven’t thought of yet. If you put a bunch of Canadian and a bunch of Americans on an island and had them work together towards a common goal - we’d do it regardless of our political mindset.
[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
I’m still waiting for someone to provide facts and proof that the health care bill does in fact cover illegal immigrants. After all,that is why Mr.Wilson called Obama a liar.[/quote]
go to the gov website, that posted the bill, section 152, a and b.
[quote]NinjaTreeFrog wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Hah. At your comparison. A better one would be why do the libs (going by obama’s stance) try and deny healthcare to live born American infants and provide it to non-citizen adults currently breaking the law.
I haven’t heard this. Sounds like political rhetoric to me.
[/quote]
Obama voted to deny healthcare to live born infants in botched abortions.
I donâ??t think there is anyone that thinks we donâ??t need reform. And the number of hardworking citizens without healthcare that donâ??t choose not to have it is very small. Not to mention emergency critical care canâ??t be denied to anyone.
I do however think the current system is better than what Obama care will eventually yield.
Self determination (mandates among other parts), right to property (pretty self explanatory)
[quote]
DoubleDuce wrote:
Canada care happens to be imploding right now by the way.
There are interests in Canada that would like to introduce a privatized option to health care and are spreading fear regarding the Canadian health care system for their own agenda. Although the system isn’t perfect, it’s not “imploding” as you so-dramatically put it. There are challenges that need to be addressed, but as a nation Canadians will come to some arrangement that will best meet the current needs of the stressed health care system. By the way, many of the challenges are due to the Baby Boomers. Retirement leads to a loss of skilled workers in the hospitals and clinics as well as an disproportionate aging population that needs more care. It’s not something inherently wrong with public healthcare - its a product of the times.[/quote]
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw
I was quoting a Canadian doctor about the imploding system up there.
And I believe there is something inherently wrong with a public option. No human being on this earth has a right that forces anyone else to do anything. Rights can only pertain to what someone else canâ??t do.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
You poo-poo this, and all the Democrats will end up saying “ok then, what’s good for the goose, is good for the gander.” The next republican President would have his speeches in front of congress drowned out by a chorus of “you liar!” At least Wilson apologized. Perhaps, maybe even he doesn’t want to set that kind of precedent. Stop excusing this because you’re guy isn’t the one making the speech today. He might, in the future. And, you’ll have supported the kind of treatment he’d get.
Edit: I really don’t care that he called Obama a liar. It’s the when, that bothers me. Save it for after the speech.[/quote]
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Obama voted to deny healthcare to live born infants in botched abortions.
[/quote]
I won’t comment on this because I have no knowledge of the facts regarding this. Also, I think that bringing abortion into the debate will just inflame the arguements rather than result in constructive discussion.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
I donâ??t think there is anyone that thinks we donâ??t need reform. And the number of hardworking citizens without healthcare that donâ??t choose not to have it is very small. Not to mention emergency critical care canâ??t be denied to anyone.
I do however think the current system is better than what Obama care will eventually yield.
[/quote]
And what is Obamacare exactly? The bill is being worked on by MANY members of congress and the senate. This is more political rhetoric without constructive discourse.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Self determination (mandates among other parts), right to property (pretty self explanatory)
[/quote]
By extension, would you argue that no one is entitled to tax a citizen for any reason? How about having national and state parks - this impedes the right to property as it’s owned by the state not by individuals? Roads? Military? Fire stations? All public works should be abolished? A police force that works on contract only. You got robbed? Save up some money and call 1-800-COPHIRE. Get ready for privatized everything and less for everyone. Except the wealthy - they can have 1000x more of the essentials than everyone else.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw
I was quoting a Canadian doctor about the imploding system up there.
[/quote]
Her family has a long history of fighting against socialized healthcare. She’s not the most unbiased expert on the subject. However, I do think that there is a place in Canada for a limited private option. Other countries have been able to blend the public and private systems nicely. Australia. The UK.
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
Actually, I think it’s a good start. The republicans need to do more to speak out against losing our country. Jefferson would have been proud of this act. Congress is like a bunch of drones stuck in a MATRIX movie. We must always question our leaders…always, and when it stops, we have ripped the final strand that holds our founding values.
Like it or not, the time for being “courteous” or “politically correct” need to be put in the past. These values and now demonstrated by congress with all the ball slobbering and worshipping we see in there today.
While it was not the best time or place, I don’t think this will hurt him. I think this will elevate him actually as a fighter from the right.[/quote]
I think we need more of pistols at high noon. Think Burr v. Hamilton. But this is a good start. The Left has been doing crap like this for years through there Code Pink and ANSWER proxies. The Left did nothing but call Bush a liar for the past 8 years. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.
[quote]NinjaTreeFrog wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Obama voted to deny healthcare to live born infants in botched abortions.
I won’t comment on this because I have no knowledge of the facts regarding this. Also, I think that bringing abortion into the debate will just inflame the arguements rather than result in constructive discussion.
DoubleDuce wrote:
I don�¢??t think there is anyone that thinks we don�¢??t need reform. And the number of hardworking citizens without healthcare that don�¢??t choose not to have it is very small. Not to mention emergency critical care can�¢??t be denied to anyone.
I do however think the current system is better than what Obama care will eventually yield.
And what is Obamacare exactly? The bill is being worked on by MANY members of congress and the senate. This is more political rhetoric without constructive discourse.
[/quote]
If the argument is that there isnâ??t a final bill yet, you cannot argue for it either.
Now youâ??re getting it. However:
Parks only infringe on right of property is it was forcibly take from a citizen.
And yes, I think most public works are a sham. There are very few things that I think the government MUST handle. Fire stations for example on the majority exist as voluntary forces with little or no public money (over 70% if memory serves). My dad happens to be a volunteer fireman and his stations only resources are donations and fund raisers. Itâ??s a myth that without forcibly taking peopleâ??s money things like public fire protection wouldnâ??t exist. It does already.
Actually privatization almost always leads to higher efficiency and hence more to go around for all. I could afford to hire cops if I didnâ??t have to pay taxes for them and the service would probably be better and cheaper. I know thatâ??s an out there concept, but I believe free people to be capable of almost anything.
[quote]
DoubleDuce wrote:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu_Z3KXoQw
I was quoting a Canadian doctor about the imploding system up there.
Her family has a long history of fighting against socialized healthcare. She’s not the most unbiased expert on the subject. However, I do think that there is a place in Canada for a limited private option. Other countries have been able to blend the public and private systems nicely. Australia. The UK.[/quote]
Why must you limit a persons choice to purchase coverage for himself or his family(currently itâ??s illegal there)? To me THAT is unbelievable. Canadians made it illegal for a person to provide for themselves. What right does a government, or a majority, have to tell me I canâ??t enter into a contract with someone else to provide insurance for my loved ones? That one simple fact to me is a deal breaker no matter how great the rest of any plan looks or works.
You see things differently and thatâ??s fine, but Iâ??m trying to explain the American way of thinking. And thatâ??s the way a lot of people see it.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Way out of line.[/quote]
…for apologizing.
mike
[quote]forlife wrote:
There’s a time and a place for disagreeing on political issues, and Joe Wilson was out of line. Agree with him or not, his behavior hurt him and his cause, which is why he is now apologizing for it.[/quote]
No, he’s apologizing for it for the same reason he likely did it. He, like that everyone else in that chamber is a political operative. He thought he’d look good by shouting out, but then realized the people he’s really loyal to (his party) is going to spank him. He then apologizes to save his ass when he realized that no one followed him.
God hates a coward. Write that down.
mike
[quote]orion wrote:
Maybe they need to be yelled at?
edit: God I wish someone in Congress would have gone apeshit over the alleged WMDs. Nobody did though. [/quote]
If for no other reason, these people need to be yelled at because the American people need to rediscover their own worth. We cow before authority and seek out nobility among people from politicians to celebrities. It’s about time we start saying, “What makes you so much better than me?!” To everyone from our neighbor to our president. We need to stop looking for leaders and start becoming our own fucking leaders.
mike