Taxes > 100% ?

[quote]hspder wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Our Founding Fathers fucked up when they did not explicitly forbid the federal government from interfering with our economic life.

When was the last time you read Paine? Hume? Locke? Rousseau?

Every single biography I’ve read on any of the Founding Fathers clearly state that those were their influences. Don’t take my word for it, check it yourself.

If you actually had read anything written by those great philosophers of the 17th century you’d realize that all of them defended the exact same principles of liberalism you seem to frown upon, including the Social Contract.

Locke, in particular – which, by all accounts, was THE greatest influence during the drafting of the US Constitution – specificaly defended limits to accumulation and redistribution of wealth.

Paine – who General Washington himself found it so uplifting that he ordered it to be read to all his troops – was amongst the earliest proponents of social security, universal free public education, and a guaranteed minimum income.

Oh, THE HORROR!

By the way, characterizing my views as simply Hobbesian makes you look very ignorant.[/quote]

As I pointed out, they fucked up. How does anything you’ve written disprove that? They didn’t improve upon a philosophy when given a chance. Now we all must suffer the consequences.

Calling me ignorant does not disprove you being a Hobbesian. You seem to have no aversion to ‘big daddy’ government, stepping in and providing cradle-to-grave security (aka slavery) for all of us.

Answer honestly, Doc. Don’t you think that the true nature of man is a state of war of ‘all against all’? Hobbes solution was to have an overpowering government to keep this in check. This is basically what the world has adopted and we have the horrors of today.

Sadly, since humans are treated as cattle by governments today (following Hobbes), the shit’s going to hit the fan when this society collapses. The cattle will stampede, having been brutalized since forever.

HH

[quote]hspder wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Our Founding Fathers fucked up when they did not explicitly forbid the federal government from interfering with our economic life.

When was the last time you read Paine? Hume? Locke? Rousseau?

Every single biography I’ve read on any of the Founding Fathers clearly state that those were their influences. Don’t take my word for it, check it yourself.

If you actually had read anything written by those great philosophers of the 17th century you’d realize that all of them defended the exact same principles of liberalism you seem to frown upon, including the Social Contract.

Locke, in particular – which, by all accounts, was THE greatest influence during the drafting of the US Constitution – specificaly defended limits to accumulation and redistribution of wealth.

Paine – who General Washington himself found it so uplifting that he ordered it to be read to all his troops – was amongst the earliest proponents of social security, universal free public education, and a guaranteed minimum income.

Oh, THE HORROR!

By the way, characterizing my views as simply Hobbesian makes you look very ignorant.[/quote]

Well then Pain and Locke were wrong. They should have seen themselves that those kind of “rights” automatically interfere with the real rights of others.

Like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…

According to Hajek they are unable to distinguish between “rights” and “power” , which is a misunderstanding that lies at the core of the subgroup of the collectivist ideologies called socialism.

Or to be a little Popperian, redistribution of wealth follows the logic of a closed society.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Hobbes solution was to have an overpowering government to keep this in check.[/quote]

Again, you talk about things that you clearly do not understand.

When was the last time you actually READ Hobbes?

The Leviathan – Hobbes’ most well-known work – describes such a situation (of an overpowering government), but only in order to criticize it. Much like Orwell used the society in 1984.

Hobbes was, in fact, a LIBERTARIAN, not a liberal – he believed in natural law, and that all individuals in that society should part with only just enough of their natural right for the authority to be able to ensure internal peace and a common defense.

Furthermore, Hobbes political doctrine is “do no harm.” His negative version of the Golden Rule, in chapter xv, 35, reads: “Do not that to another, which thou wouldst not have done to thyself.” This is contrasted with the liberal golden rule, which encourages actively doing unto others: for Hobbes, that is a recipe for social chaos.

Both things are exactly what Ayn Rand defends.

The fact that you don’t understand liberalism and its founders (but lash against it) is pretty disturbing; but the fact that you do not understand the founder of the very philosophy YOU defend – Hobbes – and clearly have never read (or at least understood) his work is just beyond reprehensible.

Maybe you just can’t get past the fact that Hobbes was an atheist. Newsflash: many objectivists and libertarians are atheists too. You are actually the exception.

[quote]orion wrote:
Well then Pain and Locke were wrong. They should have seen themselves that those kind of “rights” automatically interfere with the real rights of others.

Like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…

According to Hajek they are unable to distinguish between “rights” and “power” , which is a misunderstanding that lies at the core of the subgroup of the collectivist ideologies called socialism.

Or to be a little Popperian, redistribution of wealth follows the logic of a closed society.[/quote]

So, you read the works of their detractors, but not their own works.

That is the very definition of bias and intellectual dishonesty, I’m afraid.

Go read Paine and Locke themselves – rather than taking second-hand opinions – and then we can discuss their views.

[quote]hspder wrote:
orion wrote:
Well then Pain and Locke were wrong. They should have seen themselves that those kind of “rights” automatically interfere with the real rights of others.

Like life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness…

According to Hajek they are unable to distinguish between “rights” and “power” , which is a misunderstanding that lies at the core of the subgroup of the collectivist ideologies called socialism.

Or to be a little Popperian, redistribution of wealth follows the logic of a closed society.

So, you read the works of their detractors, but not their own works.

That is the very definition of bias and intellectual dishonesty, I’m afraid.

Go read Paine and Locke themselves – rather than taking second-hand opinions – and then we can discuss their views.[/quote]

You said they said so, I answered so what, if they did, they were wrong…

So, if they actually were quoted wrong or misunderstood they where by whom?

[quote]hspder wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Hobbes solution was to have an overpowering government to keep this in check.

Again, you talk about things that you clearly do not understand.

When was the last time you actually READ Hobbes?

The Leviathan – Hobbes’ most well-known work – describes such a situation (of an overpowering government), but only in order to criticize it. Much like Orwell used the society in 1984.

Hobbes was, in fact, a LIBERTARIAN, not a liberal – he believed in natural law, and that all individuals in that society should part with only just enough of their natural right for the authority to be able to ensure internal peace and a common defense.

Furthermore, Hobbes political doctrine is “do no harm.” His negative version of the Golden Rule, in chapter xv, 35, reads: “Do not that to another, which thou wouldst not have done to thyself.” This is contrasted with the liberal golden rule, which encourages actively doing unto others: for Hobbes, that is a recipe for social chaos.

Both things are exactly what Ayn Rand defends.

The fact that you don’t understand liberalism and its founders (but lash against it) is pretty disturbing; but the fact that you do not understand the founder of the very philosophy YOU defend – Hobbes – and clearly have never read (or at least understood) his work is just beyond reprehensible.

Maybe you just can’t get past the fact that Hobbes was an atheist. Newsflash: many objectivists and libertarians are atheists too. You are actually the exception.[/quote]

Are you referring to Thomas Hobbes or Fred Hobbes, the ‘weed whacker’ in your department?

I have read Leviathan and my take on it is quite a bit different than yours.

HH

[quote]hspder wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
When was the last time you actually READ Hobbes?

[/quote]

Ummm…you might want to go across campus and converse with some of these folks who know wtf they’re talking about.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hobbes-moral/#8

Have nice day!

HH

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Ummm…you might want to go across campus and converse with some of these folks who know wtf they’re talking about.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hobbes-moral/#8[/quote]

Actually, if you really notice that article was NOT written by a Stanford professor.

Having said that, I have just talked to a few of the guys that maintain the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. I showed them your posts (and mine) and they asked me to relay to you that they support my view, not yours.

How surprising.

They are in fact flabbergasted by your interpretation of Hobbes’ work, as well as your interpretation of Sharon’s article on Hobbes, and your association of Hobbes’ “conclusions” with liberalism.

Let’s do this: find me ONE article that specifically makes the same association – i.e., that clearly says that the absolutist state described in Leviathan is the inspiration for the Social Democratic state – and I’ll concede.

[quote]orion wrote:
You said they said so, I answered so what, if they did, they were wrong…

So, if they actually were quoted wrong or misunderstood they where by whom?[/quote]

And my argument is that you cannot possibly conclude they are wrong if you don’t actually read their whole work – do you really think it is possible to analyse a philosophy based on 5-second quotes?

[quote]hspder wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Ummm…you might want to go across campus and converse with some of these folks who know wtf they’re talking about.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hobbes-moral/#8

Actually, if you really notice that article was NOT written by a Stanford professor.

Having said that, I have just talked to a few of the guys that maintain the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. I showed them your posts (and mine) and they asked me to relay to you that they support my view, not yours.

How surprising.

They are in fact flabbergasted by your interpretation of Hobbes’ work, as well as your interpretation of Sharon’s article on Hobbes, and your association of Hobbes’ “conclusions” with liberalism.

Let’s do this: find me ONE article that specifically makes the same association – i.e., that clearly says that the absolutist state described in Leviathan is the inspiration for the Social Democratic state – and I’ll concede.[/quote]

On a Friday afternoon during the summer, at a major university, you managed to hunt down a ‘few guys’ who were knowledgeable of Thomas Hobbes. Seriously, Doc, my 10 year old son could see through that pile of horseshit.

I know you regard us commoners as ‘stupid’ or ‘psychotic’ but liberalism doesn’t have full hold in America yet. We’re not yet all drooling morons, as you want us to be, so you can rule us.

LMAO! Plan foiled, Doc!

Headhunter

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
On a Friday afternoon during the summer, at a major university, you managed to hunt down a ‘few guys’ who were knowledgeable of Thomas Hobbes. Seriously, Doc, my 10 year old son could see through that pile of horseshit.[/quote]

You were the one who suggested I talked to the plato.stanford.edu people.

There’s this great invention called a phone – have you heard of it? It’s really great. You can talk to people across great distances. It was eventually followed by this other great invention called a “phonebook”. Most companies and institutions keep a specific variation of this great invention called the “internal phonebook”.

There’s one that has the phone numbers (including cell phones – another great invention you should check out!) of all of these guys:

http://mally.stanford.edu/

… who are the maintainers of the plato.stanford.edu site.

Thomas Hobbes is one of the most well-known Western Philosophers of all time, who some argue influenced all subsequent Western political philosophy. Obviously the guys on that list, mostly Philosophy PhDs, have intimate knowledge of Hobbes.

[quote]hspder wrote:
orion wrote:
You said they said so, I answered so what, if they did, they were wrong…

So, if they actually were quoted wrong or misunderstood they where by whom?

And my argument is that you cannot possibly conclude they are wrong if you don’t actually read their whole work – do you really think it is possible to analyse a philosophy based on 5-second quotes?[/quote]

It has about the same likelyhood as presenting them on 5-second quotes.

[quote]hspder wrote:

Locke, in particular – which, by all accounts, was THE greatest influence during the drafting of the US Constitution – specificaly defended limits to accumulation and redistribution of wealth.

Paine – who General Washington himself found it so uplifting that he ordered it to be read to all his troops – was amongst the earliest proponents of social security, universal free public education, and a guaranteed minimum income.[/quote]

I wouldn’t use Washington as a character witness for Paine: they weren’t exactly fond of eachother. Washington had Common Sense read to his troops and it says nothing about social security or guaranteed minimum wage. That Washington found Common Sense inspirational says nothing about Washington’s views on wealth redistribution.

One of Locke’s central themes is that for the preservation of the public good, the main function of government is the protection of private property: “The great and chief end, therefore, of men’s uniting into commonwealths, and putting themselves under government, is the preservation of their property.” He does say that private property is private, “at least where there is enough, and as good, left in common for others.” That does not mean he belevied in wealth redistribution as it is now practiced by governments.

He explains that by one’s labor, one creates private property out of what was once common to all, and each man has a right, so far as his labor provides, to as much as he can use:

“And if he also bartered away plums, that would have rotted in a week, for nuts that would last good for his eating a whole year, he did no injury; he wasted not the common stock; destroyed no part of the portion of goods that belonged to others, so long as nothing perished uselesly in his hands. Again, if he would give his nuts for a piece of metal, pleased with its colour; or exchange his sheep for shells, or wool for a sparkling pebble or a diamond, and keep those by him all his life he invaded not the right of others, he might heap up as much of these durable things as he pleased; the exceeding of the bounds of his just property not lying in the largeness of his possession, but the perishing of any thing uselesly in it.”

"And as different degrees of industry were apt to give men possessions in different proportions, so this invention of money gave them the opportunity to continue and enlarge them…But since gold and silver, being little useful to the life of man in proportion to food, raiment, and carriage, has its value only from the consent of men, whereof labour yet makes, in great part, the measure, it is plain, that men have agreed to a disproportionate and unequal possession of the earth, they having, by a tacit and voluntary consent, found out, a way how a man may fairly possess more land than he himself can use the product of, by receiving in exchange for the overplus gold and silver, which may be hoarded up without injury to any one; these metals not spoiling or decaying in the hands of the possessor.

Once establishing the role of government–the protection of private property–and defining private property, he sets a limit on the power of government:

"First, It is not, nor can possibly be absolutely arbitrary over the lives and fortunes of the people: for it being but the joint power of every member of the society given up to that person, or assembly, which is legislator; it can be no more than those persons had in a state of nature before they entered into society, and gave up to the community: for no body can transfer to another more power than he has in himself; and no body has an absolute arbitrary power over himself, or over any other, to destroy his own life, or take away the life or property of another.

" The supreme power cannot take from any man any part of his property without his own consent: for the preservation of property being the end of government, and that for which men ente r into society, it necessarily supposes and requires, that the people should have property, without which they must be supposed to lose that, by entering into society, which was the end for which they entered into it; too gross an absurdity for a ny man to own. Men therefore in society having property, they have such a right to the goods, which by the law of the community are their’s, that no body hath a right to take their substance or any part of it from them, without their o wn consent: without this they have no property at all; for I have truly no property in that, which another can by right take from me, when he pleases, against my consent. Hence it is a mistake to think, that the supreme or legislati ve power of any common-wealth, can do what it will, and dispose of the estates of the subject arbitrarily, or take any part of them at pleasure…for a man’s property is not at all secure, tho’ there be good and equitable laws to set the bounds of it between him and his fellow subjects, if he who commands those subjects have power to take from any private man, what part he pleases of his property, and use and dispose of it as he thinks good.

Locke does point out that governments must be supported by the poeple they protect, and therefor must levy taxes for that purpose if agreed to by the majority; however, nowhere does he spell out any definitve argument for wealth redistribution–he simply doesn’t see it as his job to do so. Given that, I don’t see how Jefferson’s like for Locke, or any other founder’s for that matter, says anything about his belief in wealth redistribution.

LBRTRN,

Thank you for your thoughtful, civil and well researched reply. It was very refreshing in the midst of all the insanity.

You do leave a lot of open doors, and replying properly will require some time doing research – digging up several references and quotes – but I refuse to give you anything less (you deserve as much), and since I’ll be traveling in the next few weeks I might not have the time. I will, however, try and find it and come back to this thread when I do. Agreed?

[quote]hspder wrote:
LBRTRN,

Thank you for your thoughtful, civil and well researched reply. It was very refreshing in the midst of all the insanity.

You do leave a lot of open doors, and replying properly will require some time doing research – digging up several references and quotes – but I refuse to give you anything less (you deserve as much), and since I’ll be traveling in the next few weeks I might not have the time. I will, however, try and find it and come back to this thread when I do. Agreed?
[/quote]

Sounds good!

[quote]hspder wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
On a Friday afternoon during the summer, at a major university, you managed to hunt down a ‘few guys’ who were knowledgeable of Thomas Hobbes. Seriously, Doc, my 10 year old son could see through that pile of horseshit.

You were the one who suggested I talked to the plato.stanford.edu people.

There’s this great invention called a phone – have you heard of it? It’s really great. You can talk to people across great distances. It was eventually followed by this other great invention called a “phonebook”. Most companies and institutions keep a specific variation of this great invention called the “internal phonebook”.

There’s one that has the phone numbers (including cell phones – another great invention you should check out!) of all of these guys:

http://mally.stanford.edu/

… who are the maintainers of the plato.stanford.edu site.

Thomas Hobbes is one of the most well-known Western Philosophers of all time, who some argue influenced all subsequent Western political philosophy. Obviously the guys on that list, mostly Philosophy PhDs, have intimate knowledge of Hobbes.[/quote]

And you dropped everything to do this and they happened to be available and you had them go to this site and read this…

“I never had sexual relations with that woman.” — WJ Clinton.

Why’d I think of him just now?

Thanks Doc! You turned my thread into you tuning a man-whistle.

HH

[quote]hspder wrote:
LBRTRN,

Thank you for your thoughtful, civil and well researched reply. It was very refreshing in the midst of all the insanity.

You do leave a lot of open doors, and replying properly will require some time doing research – digging up several references and quotes – but I refuse to give you anything less (you deserve as much), and since I’ll be traveling in the next few weeks I might not have the time. I will, however, try and find it and come back to this thread when I do. Agreed?
[/quote]

Here’s an even better quote:

“You just got fucking owned.”

         --- Headhunter 

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
And you dropped everything to do this and they happened to be available and you had them go to this site and read this…[/quote]

Weren’t you the one that just pointed out that it is summer?

Most of us are on vacation. I did not drop anything. And a few people of the long list I sent you were in fact available. Most of them are longtime friends, they are happy to talk to me. I also did not give them a link, I copied and pasted.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Here’s an even better quote:

“You just got fucking owned.”

         --- Headhunter 

[/quote]

Yes, that was a very mature and civil response of you. Congratulations.

Of course, you did not realize that LBRTRN raised more questions than he provided answers, and his approach to the questions he did answer is not necessarily contrary to what I have outlined. Contrary to you, he wants to reach an agreement though intelligent discussion, not to pick a fight.

By the way, liberal and libertarian beliefs of the time had much more in common than they had different – your brand of libertarianism is quite unusual in its open hatred of liberals (at the time, liberals and libertarians shared a lot of fundamental beliefs and a common enemy), and firm support of religious dogma (at the time, most libertarians where deists or even atheists). In fact, many argue that libertarianism was born out of liberalism and the growth in separation was a gradual process that only started in the 18th century.

[quote]hspder wrote:
By the way, liberal and libertarian beliefs of the time had much more in common than they had different – your brand of libertarianism is quite unusual in its open hatred of liberals (at the time, liberals and libertarians shared a lot of fundamental beliefs and a common enemy),[/quote]

Sorry, I’m sick and I may be missing something.

When you are speaking of liberalism vs libertarianism for that time period, how are you making this distinction? The first real use of libertarianism (not meaning what it means today) that I know of was in 1857. What most people call libertarianism now is what I would call something similar to “classical liberalism,” as differentiated from modern liberalism that is primarily a 20th century invention.