[quote]karva wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Nice job glossing over the killing of children. Remember how the average 10 year old Iraqi was “safe” under saddam.
The average 10 year old iraqi wasn’t safe then, he isn’t safe now and will not be safe in the near foreseeable future. There is nothing you can do about it. [/quote]
Has there ever been a time in history, or a country on earth, in which the average ten-year-old was “safe?”
[quote]Dustin wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Wrong. Selective news reports claim some Iraqi’s said they were better off. NOT the whole country. There’s 35 million of them and only about 150,000 of us. If they wanted us gone, we’d be gone.
They want us gone. Quit listening to the mainstream media.
If they wanted us gone, how would they make us leave?
Dustin[/quote]
Well, first they would ask, which they haven’t. Second, they have us outnumbered 35,000,000 to 150,000, and there appears to be no shortage of weapons.
It is clear that we aren’t fighting the Iraqi population. The majority of “insurgents” are foreigners (Syria, Jordan, Saudi, Iranian, and some eastern Europeans).
The problem is that American forces are still outsiders. These foreign terrorists are a lot closer to the general population than we are. These guys have no problem killing anyone who appears to support American forces.
A few weeks ago there was a story of a group of terrorists who took a 9 year od boy out and ran him over repeatedly with a truck because they believed his dad was supporting American troops.
I wouldn’t be real open with my support of America either if I knew this was a potential outcome.
[quote]karva wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Nice job glossing over the killing of children. Remember how the average 10 year old Iraqi was “safe” under saddam.
The average 10 year old iraqi wasn’t safe then, he isn’t safe now and will not be safe in the near foreseeable future. There is nothing you can do about it. [/quote]
karva,
I disagree. We are doing it.
I wanted to go on record and state that every now and then a blind squirrel finds a nut.
I happen to agree with the democrats that the Iraqi Parliment MUST NOT TAKE TWO MONTHS OFF.
JeffR
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
karva wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Nice job glossing over the killing of children. Remember how the average 10 year old Iraqi was “safe” under saddam.
The average 10 year old iraqi wasn’t safe then, he isn’t safe now and will not be safe in the near foreseeable future. There is nothing you can do about it.
Has there ever been a time in history, or a country on earth, in which the average ten-year-old was “safe?”[/quote]
Yes, 10 year olds under my protection, America, circa 2007.
JeffR
[quote]lixy wrote:
Dustin wrote:
Iraq also had one of the highest literacy rates in the world, along with having universal healthcare.
Very good point.
Compare to the report released yesterday by the STC organisation and where Iraq ranks lowest in the world in child mortality.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070508/ap_on_he_me/child_deaths
JeffR wrote:
…
Saddam was a monster; that’s not open to debate. He slaughtered anyone who opposed him and that’s what dictators do. But for the great majority of people (kids, women…), life was better under his rule, and that’s not open to debate either.[/quote]
Cuba reports similar statistics. And just like Castro, Saddam was elected with 99.999% of the vote.
[quote]Dustin wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Really? You speak for the entire Iraqi population now.
Iraqis have said that they were better off under Saddam. Why? Because they had stability.
Why is this so hard to understand?
Dustin
[/quote]
There have been many polls saying the opposite.
I don’t think I have seen a poll of the Iraqi people where they say they were better off under Saddam.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
lixy wrote:
Until Americans start reading the foreign press and watch independent (as in not-corporate) news broadcasts, I’m afraid their perception of the world is never going to change.
Yes, indeed. I watch a total of about 30 minutes of news per week and it comes from one of three sources: BBC, PBS, or one of the three choices shown on World View (French, Russian, or German). It should only take 10 minutes to report the news per day…if there is any news at all.
We in America are “spin-a-holics” and need an hourly fix anytime of day or night.[/quote]
Being poorly informed is nothing to brag about.
You get 30 minutes of selective reporting each week and you complain about “spin”.
[quote]lixy wrote:
PGJ wrote:
Wrong. Selective news reports claim some Iraqi’s said they were better off. NOT the whole country. There’s 35 million of them and only about 150,000 of us. If they wanted us gone, we’d be gone.
Iraqis themselves say they were better off before the invasion. I can perfectly understand that they would rather be under an iron-fisted dictator than living in total chaos.
I don’t see how you can challenge that claim when every single poll converges towards the same conclusion: Iraqis say unequivocally that things are much worse now than they were under Saddam. I would be happy to debate statistics with you in the following document about the issue.
It’s rock-solid evidence that the Iraqis were better off before the spring of 2003. The polled base was representative and their methods are fool-proof. There’s nothing ambiguous or “selective” about it. [/quote]
From your poll 65% of Iraqis think their lives are the same or better than pre-liberation and 64% of the people think their children’s lives will be the same or better than their own.
Their feelings about the condition of their country are more negative however that is pretty meaningless.
The condition of peoples lives are more important than their perceptions as to what is happening elsewhere in their country.
Even mor einteresting from Lix’s poll is 47% of Iraqi’s felt that the US invasion was justified.
That number is incredibly high!
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
There have been many polls saying the
opposite.
I don’t think I have seen a poll of the Iraqi people where they say they were better off under Saddam.[/quote]
You probably haven’t if your only source of news comes from the mainstream.
Why would the Iraqis want a foreign Army on their soil.
Dustin
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Cuba reports similar statistics. And just like Castro, Saddam was elected with 99.999% of the vote.
[/quote]
What relevance does Cuba have to this discussion?
The fact remains that Iraq was a stable, westernized country where everyone had healthcare. Iraq had one of the highest literacy rates of any country in the world. The country is now toilet and will probably take a generation to fully recover.
Dustin
[quote]JeffR wrote:
Nice job glossing over the killing of children. Remember how the average 10 year old Iraqi was “safe” under saddam.
Typical.
[/quote]
Nice job of ignoring my statements.
I’m well aware of Saddam gassing the Kurds (while the U.S. did nothing) in which many innocent lives were lost. How many times do I have to mention that Saddam was un-sweet. No one is defending him. Can you comprehend what I’m saying? Saddam = Bastard
LOL! You had to find a way to throw Clinton into the mix.
How? By further gutting their country?
France and Germany did just exactly what the U.S. did throughout the 1980s. At least now they had enough sense to stay out of Iraq.
Dustin
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Even mor einteresting from Lix’s poll is 47% of Iraqi’s felt that the US invasion was justified.
That number is incredibly high![/quote]
It doesn’t seem quite so high when you consider that 53% thought it wasn’t. 
[quote]Dustin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
There have been many polls saying the
opposite.
I don’t think I have seen a poll of the Iraqi people where they say they were better off under Saddam.
You probably haven’t if your only source of news comes from the mainstream.
Why would the Iraqis want a foreign Army on their soil.
Dustin
[/quote]
47% say the invasion was justified. Just think how bad it was that half the population thinks the US was justified in bombing fellow Iraqis. It is staggering.
65% say they are better off now.
[quote]Dustin wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Cuba reports similar statistics. And just like Castro, Saddam was elected with 99.999% of the vote.
What relevance does Cuba have to this discussion?
The fact remains that Iraq was a stable, westernized country where everyone had healthcare. Iraq had one of the highest literacy rates of any country in the world. The country is now toilet and will probably take a generation to fully recover.
Dustin[/quote]
These claims were refuted by others in this thread.
Iraq went steadily downhill with a mad man in charge. He blundered into invading Iran and then Kuwait.
He was a menace to his people and to the world.
The world is better off without him.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
You get 30 minutes of selective reporting each week and you complain about “spin”.[/quote]
You need to learn the definition of “spin”. My “selectiveness” varies at least.
Tell me how long it should take to report how many marines got killed today. Now tell me why I have to listen to some “analyst” explain why for 20 minutes–as if he or she could possibly know.
How much more informed are you about world events and is directly related to how many hours a day you spend watching Bill Oreilly or Keith Oberman? Give me a break.
I spoke how much I “watch” the news…30 minutes is all because I don’t have much time but I read the headlines every day. Is that sufficient, all knowing, news guru?
24x7 news is killing the country’s collective intelligence.
[quote]Dustin wrote:
…
France and Germany did just exactly what the U.S. did throughout the 1980s. At least now they had enough sense to stay out of Iraq.
Dustin
[/quote]
No they didn’t. The US supported Saddam for a few years until it became it was obvious he was a madman and then the US withdrew their support.
France and Germany never stopped supporting him.
[quote]Jamougha wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Even mor einteresting from Lix’s poll is 47% of Iraqi’s felt that the US invasion was justified.
That number is incredibly high!
It doesn’t seem quite so high when you consider that 53% thought it wasn’t.
[/quote]
I find it hard to believe that any Iraqis think it was justified.
I mean it is one thing to say you are better of without Saddam but it is entirely another thing to say it was justified that a foriegn country invade!
[quote]dustin wrote:
JeffR wrote:
Nice job glossing over the killing of children. Remember how the average 10 year old Iraqi was “safe” under saddam.
Typical.
Nice job of ignoring my statements.
I’m well aware of Saddam gassing the Kurds (while the U.S. did nothing) in which many innocent lives were lost. How many times do I have to mention that Saddam was un-sweet. No one is defending him. Can you comprehend what I’m saying? Saddam = Bastard
Oh, yes, most of his atrocities were committed under Reagan and Bush’s reign. Add billy boy.
LOL! You had to find a way to throw Clinton into the mix.
However, I think the U.S. has paid in blood and treasure to at least ameliorate those sins.
How? By further gutting their country?
I can’t say the same for the number one supplier of arms to saddam, germany. Nor can I say that for the bribed–france. Nor, others.
JeffR
France and Germany did just exactly what the U.S. did throughout the 1980s. At least now they had enough sense to stay out of Iraq.
dustin
[/quote]
dustin,
france and germany continued to support saddam long after it was obvious he was a homicidial maniac.
In fact, right up to 2003.
Further, the U.S. should get credit for withdrawing support and spilling blood and treasure for the Iraqis.
Oh, if you are one of those dimwits who think it was “for oil,” notice we aren’t using Iraqi oil to rebuild their country.
I think we are done on this topic.
You are too far gone.
JeffR
[quote]Dustin wrote:
The fact remains that Iraq was a stable, westernized country where everyone had healthcare. Iraq had one of the highest literacy rates of any country in the world.
Dustin[/quote]
Wow! Sounds like paradise.
That was all great as long as you didn’t appear to be anti-establishment…then they poured battery acid on your head, raped your daughter and slowly ran your son over with a truck.
Ah…those were the days. An estimated 500,000 dead or “missing”, but hey…they had healthcare.