[quote]John S. wrote:
I wasn’t I was just showing that I am going to go do something and he has already done something to help the situation, while you do nothing but bitch.[/quote]
I see the military has got you fully indoctrinated. I’m sure it was the “Army Strong” propaganda ads. They’re highly motivating, I know.
Dustin
[quote]Dustin wrote:
John S. wrote:
I wasn’t I was just showing that I am going to go do something and he has already done something to help the situation, while you do nothing but bitch.
I see the military has got you fully indoctrinated. I’m sure it was the “Army Strong” propaganda ads. They’re highly motivating, I know.
Dustin[/quote]
Because Im going to help out other people im indoctrinated, just because your too big of a pussy to do anything? And are you saying the service memebers over there are not helping out? I sure hope your not.
[quote]John S. wrote:
Because Im going to help out other people im indoctrinated,
[/quote]
Woodrow Wilson called, he wants his idealism back.
Actually, I’m a platoon leader of a Paladin (FA) unit.
What does not being in the military have to do with bravery?
It depends on what you think they’re in Iraq for. I don’t think troops are in Iraq to make the world safe for democracy.
Dustin
[quote]Dustin wrote:
John S. wrote:
It depends on what you think they’re in Iraq for. I don’t think troops are in Iraq to make the world safe for democracy.
Dustin[/quote]
what do you think they are there for? Are you saying we are not building a democracy there?
Ok, that’s fair, so I’ll change the terms. Rather than referring to them as “muslim” whatever, how about we refer to the people who planted the previously-mentioned bombs as “murderous psychopaths”, thus eliminating motivation entirely.
So, if there are murderous psycopaths currently in Iraq who will gladly blow up a school full of children in order to further their agenda (whatever that may be), are we to assume that if we remove US Armed Forces from the area, those psychopaths will change their ways and stop trying to blow up schoolchildren? If so, why?
[quote]
Not every Marine killing an Iraqui does it for Christendom, why should they be different? [/quote]
I was in the Navy, and I found that question nauseatingly inappropriate in that it suggests 1) Marines routinely and purposefully kill Iraqi civilians; and 2) Some of the Marines are religious fanatics who believe they are doing the work of their god.
I hope you can back up either of those arguments with facts, otherwise I hope you will never abuse such strawmen again.
If its for the greater glory of Allah, they’d be perfectly happy to blow up anyone. The libs will excuse it, of course, as GWB’s fault.
The basic premise of Islam guarantees the existence of whack jobs. The religion was, IMO, designed that way.
[quote]orion wrote:
Not every Marine killing an Iraqui does it for Christendom, why should they be different? [/quote]
Not exactly sure what you are getting at, but please provide examples of Marines killing in the name of Christianity. I can’t think of one. Military chaplains can’t even use the words “Jesus Christ” in open prayer.
To contrast this, virtually every video I have seen of terrorists attacking someone, you ALWAYS hear “Allah Akbar” in the background. Then there are the mullahs who preach killing infidels in the name of Allah. Then there are the Islamic protests in London proclaiming Allah’s wrath on infidels “Bomb, bomb, USA. Bomb, Bomb, UK!”
Orion, please feel free to visit Iraq or Afghanistan, or Pakistan…let them know you are a friendly European…I’ll buy your bodybag.
This thread has gotten out of hand.
JeffR, nobody ever justified attacks on innocent civilians. Neither Orion nor myself would ever do such thing. I repeatedly pointed out that, had it not been for the invasion, things would be a lot better in Iraq. And yes, even under Saddam’s oppresive regime. At least people were getting on with their lives not worrying about getting blown up while shopping. So, just we’re clear, I’m bitching because I was protesting with the millions around the world to warn you about the chaos you were about to unleash, and thus reserve the right to say “I told you so!”. Take a look at the number of people who actively engaged in protesting the war before it even started.
Pat36, I happen to know quite a lot of Iraqis. They’re all refugees and lost everything because of the war. They attest to me that while the Islamists tend to grab the headlines with their atrocities, grassroots nationalistic movements are fighting the US presence there. You don’t need to be a religious fanatic nut to resist an occupation. Chances are that you would gladly rise up and fight if some country’s military forces were stationned in your area; the same applies for many Iraqis.
Beowolf, you are concerned about your friends’ safety. I understand perfectly, but that doesn’t fly as motive for the withdrawal. We have to face the fact that Al-Qaeda - that was inexistent at the time of Saddam - has had a formidable growth in Iraq after the invasion. That shows two things: That violence breeds violence and that stripping them of their rallying cause will inevitably affect their progress. I’m not saying their movement will wither on the day your troops come home, but it sure will make it harder for them to get support from the locals.
Cunnivore and Hedo, your arguments made no sense since prior to your “sticking your nose”, nobody was blowing school girls and education for women was guaranteed.
John S., you obviously are going to fight in good faith and convinced that you are doing it for freedom and democracy. You also are probably of young age given your grasp of the situation. I can’t help but sympathize with you because of your intent and wish you don’t get hurt in the process. However, keep in mind that an occupation army is bound to be hated by the ones under the boot. More often than not, those will retaliate and try to drive you out of their lands. The story that occupation is to bring freedom and democracy is nothing new. it’s the same line Europe’s colonial powers have been dishing for centuries to their populations.
You see, as early as the 1900’s, the French were already claiming “protectorates” (i.e: Protect the occupied people) which are essentially the same as the line your administration is using to keep its troops in Iraq. But that’s another story…
Why Iraqis will never stop resisting your presence there can be summed up by the long list of gratuitous deaths following the invasion, the Abu Ghraib abuse, or the Mahmudiya gang-rape and slaughter. Keep those in mind if you’re ever wondering why some Iraqis hate you so much.
PGJ, your blind devotion to your country is no virtue. If anything, it’s as dangerous as the one Islamists are willing to give to their leaders. Your military experience is also not giving you authority on inside knowledge of wars. Many wars are waged for the benefit of a handful of politicians while the dumb soldier dies knowing squat about what he was fighting for. Bringing up WWII analogies didn’t add anything to your argument. Instead, it reinforced the feeling that, one way or the other, you have been brainwashed. How can you possibly say Iraq is a bloodless war? All you had to do (supposedly) was overthrow a guy who was already pretty much on his knees. Contrast with battling a ravaging German and Japanese military. Get it?
Dustin, it’s good to know people like yourself are actually part of the machine. I have no doubt about your commitment in making the world a better place or that you’ll get down to it once Bush gets out of your way. Wishing you all the best.
HH, as usual, you do nothing but vociferate and praise your greatness. You just crossed a dangerous line by saying that Islam was designed to guarantee the emergence of whackjobs. You know as much about Islam as Robert Spencer, the MEMRI and FOX are willing to tell you. You are entitled to your own opinion, but relaying fallacies about Islam in these times is doing a lot more harm than you might think. You should really adopt a more thorough fact-checking process in your gathering of info. I’d be glad to answer any question you may have on my religion. Feel free to PM me anytime.
[quote]lixy wrote:
This thread has gotten out of hand.
JeffR, nobody ever justified attacks on innocent civilians. Neither Orion nor myself would ever do such thing. I repeatedly pointed out that, had it not been for the invasion, things would be a lot better in Iraq. And yes, even under Saddam’s oppresive regime. At least people were getting on with their lives not worrying about getting blown up while shopping.[/quote]
You are truly sick. You must have forgotten the wood chippers, rape rooms, torture, people disappearing, and mass graves.
I did a quick search and saddam is said to have caused nearly 2,000,000 Iraqi deaths since 1968.
www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html
Those are deaths. God only knows how many maimed and brutalized.
This must really gall you: 70% of the Iraqi’s showed up and voted in their government.
They didn’t vote for saddam.
I’ll bet you they know Iraq better than you.
Again, you are sick. To say the Iraqi’s “were better off” just shows how far you will go.
Oh, you asked whether I think you are in a cell? No, I truly think you are some guy with an internet alter-ego and an axe to grind.
You are most likely not european. You probably are one of those insulated, tenured, university types trying to foist your views onto others.
That’s my guess.
JeffR
[quote]lixy wrote:
This thread has gotten out of hand.
JeffR, nobody ever justified attacks on innocent civilians. Neither Orion nor myself would ever do such thing. I repeatedly pointed out that, had it not been for the invasion, things would be a lot better in Iraq. And yes, even under Saddam’s oppresive regime. At least people were getting on with their lives not worrying about getting blown up while shopping.[/quote]
You are truly sick. You must have forgotten the wood chippers, rape rooms, torture, people disappearing, and mass graves.
I did a quick search and saddam is said to have caused nearly 2,000,000 Iraqi deaths since 1968.
www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html
Those are deaths. God only knows how many maimed and brutalized.
This must really gall you: 70% of the Iraqi’s showed up and voted in their government.
They didn’t vote for saddam.
I’ll bet you they know Iraq better than you.
Again, you are sick. To say the Iraqi’s “were better off” just shows how far you will go.
Oh, you asked whether I think you are in a cell? No, I truly think you are some guy with an internet alter-ego and an axe to grind.
You are most likely not european. You probably are one of those insulated, tenured, university types trying to foist your views onto others.
That’s my guess.
JeffR
[quote]lixy wrote:
This thread has gotten out of hand.
Pat36, I happen to know quite a lot of Iraqis. They’re all refugees and lost everything because of the war. They attest to me that while the Islamists tend to grab the headlines with their atrocities, grassroots nationalistic movements are fighting the US presence there. You don’t need to be a religious fanatic nut to resist an occupation. Chances are that you would gladly rise up and fight if some country’s military forces were stationned in your area; the same applies for many Iraqis.
[/quote]
1.That has little to do with the fact that ALL the insurgents are islamic.
Let me make it mathmatical for you.
Peace = U.S. the fuck out of Iraq.
Insurgent violence=U.S. has to stay.
What’s hard about that notion. The sooner the violence stops the sooner the U.S. is gone. want the U.S. gone? stop being violent.
This concept of peace, or at least non-violent action, seems to be foreign as a herd of Antartic pegiuns in the Islamic world.
So excuse me for making the absurd idea that the violence has to stop in Iraq for the U.S. to leave. Keep being violent, we’ll trow up a bomb proof McDonald’s and stay a bit longer.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
Some of them call it Jihad, some of them don`t and some call it that and do not believe a word of it.
I am not saying your wrong, I just haven’t heard a single peep refering to the insurgency as mulifaceted as it is, as anything else other than a Holy endevour to kill the infidel. Do you have any text that would show there is any secular based violence in Iraq?[/quote]
http://archive.gulfnews.com/indepth/iraqelection/more_stories/10005432.html
Not about secular insurgents per se, but they get mentioned.
Seem to be Sunni-Baath party mostly, which makes sense.
[quote]PGJ wrote:
pat36 wrote:
orion wrote:
Some of them call it Jihad, some of them don`t and some call it that and do not believe a word of it.
I am not saying your wrong, I just haven’t heard a single peep refering to the insurgency as mulifaceted as it is, as anything else other than a Holy endevour to kill the infidel. Do you have any text that would show there is any secular based violence in Iraq?
That is a great question. The answer is NO. There is no “secular” in Islamic society. These guys chant “Allah Akbar” as they blow up public places and saw off people’s heads. Converting to a religion other than Islam is still punishable by death. The society is totally centerd on Islam.
[/quote]
That is BS, Iraq was probably the most secular society in the Middle East.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
beowolf wrote:
In fact, I was all for kicking ass and taking names in Afghanistan to kick the shit out of the Taliban. And if things keep going in the direction they seem to be going, I might end up being for a war with Iran, depending on whether or not they develop nuclear capability and threaten to use it one Israel. I’m am by no means a pacifist.
Beowolf,
This is where democratic logic gets murky to me.
If the goal is to kill al qaeda, it seems to me that we should all be in aggreement with staying in Iraq.
We know that Iraq is the central front of the War on Terror. al qaeda has broadcast this fact.
If you are for killing taliban for supporting al qaeda, then it follows you should be for killing al qaeda in Iraq.
Again, the logic escapes me here. For the sake of argument, let’s accept every looney theory about going in to Iraq (kickbacks for cheney, reelection, personal vendetta, Bush thinks it’s cool, etc…) it still doesnt justify pulling out when the enemy is there.
The only thing I can think of, is that people want so badly to punish any idea associated with Bush, that they would rather he lose any undertaking than deal with the larger issue.
One cannot in good faith say, “Well, if we leave, everything will be ok.”
It won’t. It would be a monumental victory for the forces of darkness.
I think that the Americans should plan on eventually pulling back to regional bases. Withdraw most of the manpower. But, be available for some heavy hitting. Further, act as a deterrant to iran.
As long as the Iraqi’s ask for and allow us to maintain these regional bases, I say we stay. See Japan and other areas of our vital national interest.
Friends, leaving Iraq altogether would be an enormous error. Bush isn’t the best person to persuade doubters. However, I think he’s quite correct.
JeffR
[/quote]
I see your point. It’s weird that I don’t want to stay, but thats more because I didn’t think we should have gone. That’s why I don’t support withdrawal without some form of Iraqi referendum. Not a government decision, but a real, people’s vote on whether or not they want us there. If they do, well then I guess we’re stuck, and I’ll support the war to the best of my ability, besides joining up.
However, knowing what you now know, would you go back and (if you were a congressman) vote to go into Iraq, like Cheney has said he most certainly would?
[quote]PGJ wrote:
orion wrote:
Not every Marine killing an Iraqui does it for Christendom, why should they be different?
Not exactly sure what you are getting at, but please provide examples of Marines killing in the name of Christianity. I can’t think of one. Military chaplains can’t even use the words “Jesus Christ” in open prayer.
To contrast this, virtually every video I have seen of terrorists attacking someone, you ALWAYS hear “Allah Akbar” in the background. Then there are the mullahs who preach killing infidels in the name of Allah. Then there are the Islamic protests in London proclaiming Allah’s wrath on infidels “Bomb, bomb, USA. Bomb, Bomb, UK!”
Orion, please feel free to visit Iraq or Afghanistan, or Pakistan…let them know you are a friendly European…I’ll buy your bodybag.
[/quote]
I was getting at that while most Marins happen to be Christian they rarely kill for Christendom.
That was more or less the point.
So why assume that every Muslim kills for Allah? If a Marine says: “Jesus, thank God that motherfucker is gone” after a sniper has been taken is that an expression of his religion or his cultural background?
Not that Islam is not organized, violent insanity, but so are most other religions that still have a strong grip on a society.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
lixy wrote:
This thread has gotten out of hand.
JeffR, nobody ever justified attacks on innocent civilians. Neither Orion nor myself would ever do such thing. I repeatedly pointed out that, had it not been for the invasion, things would be a lot better in Iraq. And yes, even under Saddam’s oppresive regime. At least people were getting on with their lives not worrying about getting blown up while shopping.
You are truly sick. You must have forgotten the wood chippers, rape rooms, torture, people disappearing, and mass graves.
[/quote]
‘Iraqis say they were better off under Hussein’
http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/14282
Hmm that seems to settle it.
[quote]Cunnivore wrote:
Ok, that’s fair, so I’ll change the terms. Rather than referring to them as “muslim” whatever, how about we refer to the people who planted the previously-mentioned bombs as “murderous psychopaths”, thus eliminating motivation entirely.
[/quote]
I think murderous sociopaths describes them nicely.
I am also dead serious when I see them as little proto-governments and draw comparisons to Waco.
Some people are that way and they are drawn to power.
[quote]JeffR wrote:
You are truly sick. You must have forgotten the wood chippers, rape rooms, torture, people disappearing, and mass graves.
[/quote]
Saddam’s worst atrocities (during the 1980s) were committed under the nose of Rondald Reagan, then George H.W. Bush. As long as Saddam minded his P’s and Q’s (i.e. fought the Iranians and traded with the West) Washington didn’t care.
Yes, this is well documented.
Exactly, that’s why they don’t want us there.
Well, they could go to the market without fear of being blown up. Iraq also had one of the highest literacy rates in the world, along with having universal healthcare.
That’s a pretty good description of yourself, actually.
[quote]John S. wrote:
Dustin wrote:
John S. wrote:
It depends on what you think they’re in Iraq for. I don’t think troops are in Iraq to make the world safe for democracy.
Dustin
what do you think they are there for? Are you saying we are not building a democracy there?
[/quote]
We are there to gain strategic control of the one of the largest oil reserves in the world and to install a government that will be more pro-U.S. than Saddam was.
In a way one could argue that we are building a democracy in Iraq, but whether it will be the type Iraqi’s want remains to be seen.
Dustin
[quote]orion wrote:
PGJ wrote:
orion wrote:
Not every Marine killing an Iraqui does it for Christendom, why should they be different?
Not exactly sure what you are getting at, but please provide examples of Marines killing in the name of Christianity. I can’t think of one. Military chaplains can’t even use the words “Jesus Christ” in open prayer.
To contrast this, virtually every video I have seen of terrorists attacking someone, you ALWAYS hear “Allah Akbar” in the background. Then there are the mullahs who preach killing infidels in the name of Allah. Then there are the Islamic protests in London proclaiming Allah’s wrath on infidels “Bomb, bomb, USA. Bomb, Bomb, UK!”
Orion, please feel free to visit Iraq or Afghanistan, or Pakistan…let them know you are a friendly European…I’ll buy your bodybag.
I was getting at that while most Marins happen to be Christian they rarely kill for Christendom.
That was more or less the point.
So why assume that every Muslim kills for Allah? If a Marine says: “Jesus, thank God that motherfucker is gone” after a sniper has been taken is that an expression of his religion or his cultural background?
Not that Islam is not organized, violent insanity, but so are most other religions that still have a strong grip on a society.
[/quote]
WTF, Orion? Name some other religions that tell people to kill in the name of God?
And I have never heard of ANYONE seriously saying “Dear Jesus, thank you for giving me the strength to saw that man’s head off. All Glory is yours”.
All I hear is “Lord, please protect us and our great nation.” I have never heard in 14 years of military service anyone praying for the death of anyone.
Why is it so freaking hard for people to realize that the “insurgency” is fueled by radical Islamic religious fervor? They do kill for Allah and the virgins.