Talking Libertarianism

[anon71262119]

@polo77j

One thing I’ve found of libertarians is they do not expect perfection.

Amen.

@polo77j

My understanding of why “we” create ideologies is to help people understand the world and hopefully influence behavior in such a way as to promote peace or contentment or w/e the goal happens to be (some might say chaos). Libertarian ideologies promote individual liberty - freedom from coercion - and mutually beneficial transactions however the economic actors in a given scenario see fit and agree upon.

They (libertarians) also understand (or try to understand) people are flawed and won’t use logic/reasoning in ALL transactions/interactions - there’s also a huge capacity among libertarians for tolerance - more so than any other ideology I’m familiar with wrt lifestyle - how one lives their life so long as it doesn’t infringe on their own individual liberties…

Perfect. Thank you for taking the time to writing that, Polo.

Man, that’s very true about human flaws, and NOT expecting that people will always make decisions or exhibit behavior based on logic or reason. I love it when Sowell waxes philosophical about that kind of thing. Our very flawed human nature.

[polo77j]

@zecarlo

I’m simply asking questions btw. I’m not trying to prove anything or try and make people look dumb.

I never got the impression you were trying to make anyone look dumb.

You came across and legitimately curious/well intentioned

@zecarlo

For the record, I don’t think of myself as right or left, liberal or conservative. I think of myself as more of a classical liberal, which seems to fall in line with how many libertarians see themselves. With that said, on specific issues I might tend to side with the left though not the far left Marxists, more often but that has changed over time.

Samesies - Shit I’ve come along way in terms of how I see the world - When I was a younger buck I had a poster of Che on my wall (I was like 21 and knew shit about shit). But as I experienced the world and started working and reading/studying economics and political philosophy I lean more toward Lockean/Mill in terms of political philosophy and Mises/Hayek in terms of Economics.

However I don’t like painting myself in a corner so I try to read things from most perspectives even if I think it’s bat shit crazy (Marxist/Cultural Marxists)

@zecarlo

I’m just curious as to how we should try and reckon reality and biology with ideology. Should we rely on morals and/or laws?

Books have been written and philosophies founded trying to answer that lol … It’s a worthy endeavor however and ought to be explored imo.

I err on the side of personal and individual liberty and morals.

@zecarlo

I also have to admit that though I respect the idea of property rights I don’t like the idea of worshiping those rights.

There’s theory behind why private property is morally right and ought to be protected tooth and nail - if I had more time/wasn’t distracted at the moment I’d delve into this deeper as I understand it (in terms of both political philosophy and Austrian economics). Alas it’s a conversation for another day.

@zecarlo

Maybe that’s my Christian upbringing, I don’t know. But the idea of putting the right to own property above being humane is something that bothers me. I’m not saying anyone here feels like that but I wonder about an ideology that can lead to feeling that way. For example, even if the law said I could shoot and kill someone stealing my car from my driveway, I wouldn’t do it. I couldn’t put a car above a human life. There are people however, who do believe that you should be allowed to kill, legally and morally, to protect property. Maybe it’s even legal in some places, I don’t know.

Private property is a pretty big umbrella and I agree with you in terms of shooting someone who’s stealing your car from your driveway. But that’s not the reason for the law and there are many scenarios we can go over which I’m sure you’d agree with me and I’d agree with you in terms when it’s morally right to protect property - but that really rests on how it’s defined and understood (private property).

[polo77j]

@anon71262119

I love it when Sowell waxes philosophical about that kind of thing. Our very flawed human nature.

I think it’s something misunderstood about libertarians and classically liberal philosophy (and Austrian economics/praxeology) - even among people who identify as libertarians.

[Basement_Gainz]

@polo77j

But as I experienced the world and started working and reading/studying economics and political philosophy I lean more toward Lockean/Mill in terms of political philosophy and Mises/Hayek in terms of Economics.

However I don’t like painting myself in a corner so I try to read things from most perspectives even if I think it’s bat shit crazy (Marxist/Cultural Marxists)

Exact same. Except I’ve been right leaning since I got my first W2 paycheck at 14 years old. Took the stub home to dad. “Who’s ‘FICA’ and why is he taking my money?”

Spent the next six months reading about tax policy and econimists.

[zecarlo]

I love animals, old people and kids. Everyone should.

[zecarlo]

But should there be something that encourages cooperative behavior? If not laws then morals?

[Alrightmiami19c]

@zecarlo

Tell that to any country that invaded another. Tell that to the Native Americans as well.

Well the conquerors would be violating the “don’t take other people’s shit” clause, but that wasn’t the point.

[Alrightmiami19c]

@zecarlo

Maybe that’s my Christian upbringing, I don’t know. But the idea of putting the right to own property above being humane is something that bothers me.

“Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7)

A Christian Libertarian chooses to be charitable with his property but doesn’t force his neighbor to be.

[zecarlo]

Go back far enough and all peoples took someone else’s shit at some point.

[Alrightmiami19c]

@zecarlo

Go back far enough and all peoples took someone else’s shit at some point.

Uh huh.

[polo77j]

@zecarlo

Go back far enough and all peoples took someone else’s shit at some point.

The only shit I’ve ever taken was my own thankyouverymuch

[anon50325502]

You’re married aren’t you, lol.

[polo77j]

@anon50325502

You’re married aren’t you, lol.

For now…

(consequences of only taking my own shit)

[zecarlo]

But you do live in a nation whose lands were taken from someone else. I did write peopleS not individuals.

[polo77j]

@zecarlo

But you do live in a nation whose lands were taken from someone else

pretty sure if I lived literally anywhere in the world that’d be the case … so i fail to see why this is an issue?

[countingbeans]

@polo77j

They (libertarians) also understand (or try to understand) people are flawed and won’t use logic/reasoning in ALL transactions/interactions - there’s also a huge capacity among libertarians for tolerance - more so than any other ideology I’m familiar with wrt lifestyle - how one lives their life so long as it doesn’t infringe on their own individual liberties…

It’s really the whole ideology in a nutshell.

Little “L” libertarians range from Classical Liberals to Ancaps (using contemporary American views for them).

And I’ll say, I’d rather be called a statist by an ancap than try and discuss policy with a Bernout.

@polo77j

When I was a younger buck I had a poster of Che on my wall

So happy I never had anything that embarrassing to admit lol

@zecarlo

I’m just curious as to how we should try and reckon reality and biology with ideology. Should we rely on morals and/or laws?

Have you ever looked into the “frame problem” by any chance? Not the AI programing side, but the coopted philosophical one?

We really have so little understanding of how the brain works, compared to other things we have a good grasp on, it’s pretty early to expect us to be able to work out your questions lol.

[countingbeans]

@Alrightmiami19c

but doesn’t force his neighbor

This is as good of a description of libertarians as can be in 5 words.

[zecarlo]

It was in response to someone else. The idea of not taking someone else’s property sounds great but the reality is it has happened and will continue to happen, even by those who say we shouldn’t. We just have to change the definition of legal and/or moral ownership.

Also, we benefit from the theft undertaken by others. How do we truly create a level playing field when some are starting ahead of others?

A poster quoted the Bible, "Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.” (2 Corinthians 9:7), well, Moses didn’t follow that advice after the exodus from Egypt. So even the Bible has exceptions to “stealing.”

[countingbeans]

@zecarlo

How do we truly create a level playing field when some are starting ahead of others?

By insuring the law treats everyone equal, and there are not unjust legislative blocks to opportunity.

NO law, philosophy or economic system will ever solve the “problem” of some starting ahead of others. It’s part of nature, and will always be.

I was poor with piss poor eyesight, poorly draining ear canals and I’m slow as shit. Not to mention I can’t jump. I can never be a pilot, nor be any good at basketball. Should we look to legislate my equality in those two things?

[zecarlo]

OK, should we at least accept that an ideology that doesn’t take into account biology and reality will always be theoretical (even utopian) at best.