T-Nation Atheists

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
455

Lorisco, instead of praying to the mighty lord (who benchpresses 1 billion) for various blessings and forgiving, pray for some brain.

Oh how we laughed!

Anyway, how about something completely
different?
Guys, will you tell me,
what would change in your life if somehow you’d discover with absolute certitude that…
a)there is a god?
b)there is no god
c)there is a specific god/pantheon (let’s take one of these three: the norse pantheon, the cruel Jehova with all his anger, pudgy ol’Buddha along reincarnation)

I’m so curious!

456

I know some of you are upset with Christians taking over your thread. While you are welcome to read this, I just want you to know that this is directed to those Christians who think they are speaking for all of us.

It is a little hard to follow who is saying what here, but whoever said that AIDS, cancer, etc was a form of punishment clearly does not get it. This is not even close to the teachings of Jesus. Please go read John Chapter 9. This is why people have so many problems with Christians. It is the judgmental attitude and looking down on everyone else that turn everyone off of Christianity. Jesus taught us all to view things from the bottom, not from a position of moral superiority.
I am a Christian because that is the path I have found that takes me closest to God. But I do not believe for one second that when I get to heaven I am only going to be joined by those Christians who proclaimed Jesus as their Lord and Savior. I know I am going to be there with my Islamic, Buddhist, Jewish, and even my Agnostic brothers and sisters (I know I am leaving some out…but you get the point). Stop trying to label everyone else as believer/nonbeliever. It is not a worthiness contest. If it was you will find that none of us is worthy.
Approximately 98% of all people that have walked the face of the earth have done so before the foundation of formal religion. Does that mean that at the end of time God is going to say…“Well I lost 98% of them, but these 2% who proclaimed Jesus as their Lord and Savior are here”? Trust me, God is a lot bigger than that.

As far as the question of suffering, I wish I had an answer. The majority of suffering is either self inflicted or inflicted on each other (wars, gulags, holocausts). This is a result of the gift of free will. Unfortunately, in exercising our own free will, we often impose our will on other people and thus take away their freedom.
But there is still the issue of unexplained suffering such as a sick child like one of you mentioned. I think it is in suffering that we grow the most, but that does not answer why it is necessary. I think Christianity offers a good explanation in that the crucufied Christ is proof of God’s solidarity with man in his suffering. I think those of you who are parents can also understand suffering a little better too because you will often let your kids suffer through things because you know it is for their own good.

[quote]seekingstrength wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
seekingstrength wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:

Imagine if you were in a world where
everyone was perfect, everyone appeared to be loving each other -
everyone was working for each other, but they weren’t free to do so.
They had to love each other. They had to work for each other. They had
to benefit each other. It wouldn’t work. It’s like something out of an
Orson Welle’s book, or one of the Star Trek episodes, to have that
happen.

Now the Lord couldn’t just set it up so there would be appearances of
freedom, but then if we went too far He would stop us. He couldn’t do that because that would wreck freedom for us. Imagine that. We could do anything we wanted. And yet as soon as we went to do something wrong, God would stop us, “Nope, you can’t do that.” It wouldn’t work that way. Someone asked me once, “Do you mean, Adolph Hitler was allowed to exterminate six million Jews simply to preserve his freedom?” And the answer is, yes, but not just
Adolph Hitler’s freedom, mankind’s freedom. God can’t break His rules.
If God came down and stopped Adolph Hitler by some miracle, everyone would lose their freedom. He’d take away humanity. Now God did work through man, through armies, through setting up situations to help man defeat Adolph Hitler but God couldn’t come down and break His laws of order. If He did, He would destroy our humanity.

I think your meant George Orwell, not Orson Welles.

If you are talking about mankind’s freedom, what about the freedom of the 6 million Jews that were killed. Didn’t the Jews lose their freedom when they were thrown in to concentration camps.

Also, nowhere in your post did you address birth defects, cancer, AIDs, or any number of debilitating and deadly diseases. If we were created by God, why do any of these things exist.

I didn’t write this, a Pastor did.

You’re question goes right back to the freedom part. God gave people free will to either love him or not. Health problems all stem from this. Aids - immoral sexual conduct, cancer - degredation of food, not taking care of our bodies, etc.

Dude,
I know whatever I say, you will reply with some platitude that they taught you in Sunday school. But, here are some thigs you might have a harder time answering. I have a daughter that was born with a severe birth defect. As far as I know, she did not cause this herself. What is up with that? A boy in her class was a normally functioning little boy until he had a stroke. What was his sin? My wife’s uncle was struck by truck when he was 8 years old. His mind functioned fine, but his resulting physical problems forced him to live in a nursing home for most of his life. Where is his freedom?[/quote]

457

I am not saying God is “punishing” us. I am saying that all these problems have risen up because of the way human beings over many, many years have CHOSEN to live. The earth isn’t exactly pure anymore like it once was in the beggining. I have had family that has died of cancer and what not also.

458

Agshag, lad, consider yourself an honarary atheist/agnostic/satanist!
-you may pick the title which suits you best-

Now, serious, it’s nice to have a christian contribution which shows reason and kindness.
You’re welcome.

459

[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
I am not saying God is “punishing” us. I am saying that all these problems have risen up because of the way human beings over many, many years have CHOSEN to live. The earth isn’t exactly pure anymore like it once was in the beggining. I have had family that has died of cancer and what not also.[/quote]

Just out of curiosity I was wondering what you think of dinosaurs. The bible has no mention of them. It says something like god created the world and everything and then man. It doesn’t mention dinosaurs. I find this odd because dinosaurs are millions of years older than people but the bible doesn’t mention them.

460

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
Just out of curiosity I was wondering what you think of dinosaurs. The bible has no mention of them. It says something like god created the world and everything and then man. It doesn’t mention dinosaurs. I find this odd because dinosaurs are millions of years older than people but the bible doesn’t mention them. [/quote]

That question will get you Job 40:15-24, “Behold the Behemoth…”

461

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
I am not saying God is “punishing” us. I am saying that all these problems have risen up because of the way human beings over many, many years have CHOSEN to live. The earth isn’t exactly pure anymore like it once was in the beggining. I have had family that has died of cancer and what not also.

Just out of curiosity I was wondering what you think of dinosaurs. The bible has no mention of them. It says something like god created the world and everything and then man. It doesn’t mention dinosaurs. I find this odd because dinosaurs are millions of years older than people but the bible doesn’t mention them. [/quote]

The Bible DOES mention Dinosaurs. The term Behemoth is used and described as a giant land animal with a tail like a cedar tree trunk and scales. There is also another one that I would have to look up. If you want the references, I would be happy to go through the specific places in the Bible that mentions them. Let me know.

462

[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
I am not saying God is “punishing” us. I am saying that all these problems have risen up because of the way human beings over many, many years have CHOSEN to live. The earth isn’t exactly pure anymore like it once was in the beggining. I have had family that has died of cancer and what not also.[/quote]

You’re wrong.
And that’s so terrible.
Consider this (goes mostly for the western world, but still):

Humans had a lifespan of about 30 years (even as late as the 18 Century). Today , we can cure most diseases which were thought to be deadly, effectively doubling the average life span.
Freedom and certain rights have been declared as being fundamental. No one can deny you these.
If one nation wages war for base motives, others will probably intervene.
Nations aid other nations who suffer from catastrophes like floods or earthquakes.
.
.

Of course, we also face a lot of problems, (and most of them are, at least in my opinion, pretty severe) but this “pureness” you describes is a product of your imagination.
Almost every culture speaks of those golden times.
Old men always tell you how better thins were back in their time. You can read this even in ancient greek texts.
In Mesopotamia, an famous old cuneiform writing which has been uncovered tells how rotten the youth is, and that the end of the world is soon to come.

Lighten up, it’s not so bad!

463

Yeah, sure, the Bible mentions dinosaurs, we all know that, but what about this:

We can look up to places more than 10 000 Lightyears away.
If the Bible is correct, this cannot be because the world is some 6000 years old and therefore, we could only look like 6000 Lightyears. After that would come emptiness.
Hmm. Makes me think…

464

[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
I am not saying God is “punishing” us. I am saying that all these problems have risen up because of the way human beings over many, many years have CHOSEN to live. The earth isn’t exactly pure anymore like it once was in the beggining. I have had family that has died of cancer and what not also.

Just out of curiosity I was wondering what you think of dinosaurs. The bible has no mention of them. It says something like god created the world and everything and then man. It doesn’t mention dinosaurs. I find this odd because dinosaurs are millions of years older than people but the bible doesn’t mention them.

The Bible DOES mention Dinosaurs. The term Behemoth is used and described as a giant land animal with a tail like a cedar tree trunk and scales. There is also another one that I would have to look up. If you want the references, I would be happy to go through the specific places in the Bible that mentions them. Let me know.
[/quote]

I would actually. What pages.

465

[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
I am not saying God is “punishing” us. I am saying that all these problems have risen up because of the way human beings over many, many years have CHOSEN to live. The earth isn’t exactly pure anymore like it once was in the beggining. I have had family that has died of cancer and what not also.

Just out of curiosity I was wondering what you think of dinosaurs. The bible has no mention of them. It says something like god created the world and everything and then man. It doesn’t mention dinosaurs. I find this odd because dinosaurs are millions of years older than people but the bible doesn’t mention them.

The Bible DOES mention Dinosaurs. The term Behemoth is used and described as a giant land animal with a tail like a cedar tree trunk and scales. There is also another one that I would have to look up. If you want the references, I would be happy to go through the specific places in the Bible that mentions them. Let me know.
[/quote]

It says “his tail SWAYS like a cedar”. It does not say the tail is like a cedar but rather its motion is. And it doesn’t say that the behemoth is giant.

Most importantly regarding the behemoth is that the bible says, " look at the behemoth, which I made along with you". I find this last sentence odd because it is indisputable that dinosaurs were areond million of years before man ever existed. God couldn’t have made them at the same time.

The next so called “dinosaur” mentioned is a leviathan. There is nothing written that leads me to entertain the notion that this is a dinosaur either. To me it sounds like a crocodile. If it weren’t for the mention of “back rows of shields” which I interpret as scales, I would assume it could be any water dwelling animal. I think it is a description of a crocodile except the author added fire breathing for effect. Again the book says that these creatures were living among men. These are supposed to be the words of god. Wouldn’t he know that men and dinosaurs never once existed together except in the form of skeletons. If you believe what you said above then you believe that men once fought dinosaurs with clubs and slings, as it says in the bible. That just seems silly to me. The descriptions are of incredibly mighty and proud beasts. That doesn’t mean they were the size of dinosaurs.

So now that I’ve cleared that up. Please refer to my previous post regarding dinosaurs and please answer my question.

466

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
wfifer wrote:
violatepropriety wrote:
I agree with Irish… true Atheism is PROOF of the non existence of God. Got it? Lets see it.

Philisophically speaking, well, thats a new thread now isnt it. : )

It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove that a god does not exist. The atheist is concerned with the lack of proof going the other way. He simply does not believe in any diety. And for that matter, why should anyone have to prove that something does not exist? Prove to me that there isn’t a omnipotent purple hippo living on the Sun swinging all the planets around.

Prove god does exist.
[/quote]
Maybe you missed my point. Of course if there were a god, its existence could be proven; however, whether or not there is a god, it’s not possible to prove that there isn’t one. So it’s clear that the burden of proof is on the theist. The thing is, theists aren’t concerned with proof. They have this crazy thing called “blind faith”. Apparently proving their god’s existence would defeat their religion. Yeah, you read that correctly. Anyway, I’m no idiot, so I need proof, or at least some compelling evidence…

467

[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
The Bible DOES mention Dinosaurs. The term Behemoth is used and described as a giant land animal with a tail like a cedar tree trunk and scales. There is also another one that I would have to look up. If you want the references, I would be happy to go through the specific places in the Bible that mentions them. Let me know.
[/quote]

I just happen to have a picture of an elephant’s ass (don’t ask). The tail of an elephant is not that small. In the picture, the tail has a pretty good diameter, and is not that dissimilar in color or texture from the surrounding tree trunks.

Could someone writing about that beast without a name for it compare it’s tail with a tree? I think so.

The case for dinosaurs in the Bible is extremely weak, I’d say.

468

[quote]pookie wrote:

The case for dinosaurs in the Bible is extremely weak, I’d say.[/quote]

Next you’ll be saying there’s no Loch Ness Monster or Abominable Snowman, the latter of which we know to be true since it was documented in a Xmas special with Rudolph in it.

Refute that, you arrogant french speaking twit!

469

[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
I am not saying God is “punishing” us. I am saying that all these problems have risen up because of the way human beings over many, many years have CHOSEN to live. The earth isn’t exactly pure anymore like it once was in the beggining. I have had family that has died of cancer and what not also.[/quote]

Well I think I have led a very fotunate life so far; and don’t feel punished by any other-world force at all. I sincerely hope you don’t actually believe a lot of the stuff you have written, because then you must lead a very depressed life m8.

And since when has the Earth been pure? Even in the garden of eden eve could not resist the apple. And throughout history many terrible acts have been commited; and still are today.

470

[quote]vroom wrote:
I have always been unable to reconcile all the pain and suffering (not always physical) caused by religion with the concept of a loving and forgiving God.

If there were to be a God, I think it would be extremely disappointed to be the cause of so much strife.

On the other hand, if any God preferred such suffering and strife, then I certainly wouldn’t care to offer it my allegiance.[/quote]

One can argue that it’s the only way we grow and become stronger and can truly appreciate the wonders and good things in life. If everything was all rosy and perfect from birth to death, we wouldn’t learn very much and be very-developed worthwhile human beings.

471

[quote]alstan90 wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
I am not saying God is “punishing” us. I am saying that all these problems have risen up because of the way human beings over many, many years have CHOSEN to live. The earth isn’t exactly pure anymore like it once was in the beggining. I have had family that has died of cancer and what not also.

Well I think I have led a very fotunate life so far; and don’t feel punished by any other-world force at all. I sincerely hope you don’t actually believe a lot of the stuff you have written, because then you must lead a very depressed life m8.

And since when has the Earth been pure? Even in the garden of eden eve could not resist the apple. And throughout history many terrible acts have been commited; and still are today. [/quote]

If you accept it as true, that’s the last time the earth was pure. Right before Eve ate the apple.

472

[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
seekingstrength wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
I didn’t write this, a Pastor did.

You’re question goes right back to the freedom part. God gave people free will to either love him or not. Health problems all stem from this. Aids - immoral sexual conduct, cancer - degredation of food, not taking care of our bodies, etc.[/quote]

And we’ve hit a new low. What about Ryan White? What about children born with AIDS? How exactly did they refuse to love God?

Jesus himself asks why God has forsaken him in the Bible. Your position doesn’t even agree theologically with your faith.

Sometimes bad things happen to good and undeserving people. The kicker is that there is no one common thread that can explain why all of those people were “chosen” to have these bad things happen to them.

Todd

473

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
paul bunyan wrote:
FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
I am not saying God is “punishing” us. I am saying that all these problems have risen up because of the way human beings over many, many years have CHOSEN to live. The earth isn’t exactly pure anymore like it once was in the beggining. I have had family that has died of cancer and what not also.

Just out of curiosity I was wondering what you think of dinosaurs. The bible has no mention of them. It says something like god created the world and everything and then man. It doesn’t mention dinosaurs. I find this odd because dinosaurs are millions of years older than people but the bible doesn’t mention them.

The Bible DOES mention Dinosaurs. The term Behemoth is used and described as a giant land animal with a tail like a cedar tree trunk and scales. There is also another one that I would have to look up. If you want the references, I would be happy to go through the specific places in the Bible that mentions them. Let me know.

I would actually. What pages.[/quote]

I have one:

Book of Pterodactyl 5:25-32

And then the Great Holy Pterodactyl was filled with the Holy Spirit. The Pterodactyl proceeded to smite the Emus. The pterodeactyl fought tirelessly for six days and six nights. On the seventh day, the pterodactyl rested, for there were no more Emus. And on the T-Nation Atheists thread there was much rejoicing.

474

With all due respect, there is one thing that I have never understood with respect to the atheist position.

How do you explain how you know the difference between right and wrong? You may not always do the right thing, but surely you have to admit that deep down there are some universal truths as to what is right and wrong. Now you can tell me that you learned from your parents, society, etc and I will agree with you. But where did your parents learn? So you can see where I am going with this…at some point when humanity began, someone had to write this on our hearts (soul?). Where did this come from then?

[quote]paul bunyan wrote:
wfifer wrote:
violatepropriety wrote:
I agree with Irish… true Atheism is PROOF of the non existence of God. Got it? Lets see it.

Philisophically speaking, well, thats a new thread now isnt it. : )

It is IMPOSSIBLE to prove that a god does not exist. The atheist is concerned with the lack of proof going the other way. He simply does not believe in any diety. And for that matter, why should anyone have to prove that something does not exist? Prove to me that there isn’t a omnipotent purple hippo living on the Sun swinging all the planets around.

Prove god does exist.
[/quote]