Irish,
Is it just my impression or does it seem that the ranks of agnostics are populated by former Catholics? Just about everyone I’ve met who considers themselves to be an agnostic was a former Catholic. I myself am a former Catholic turned agnostic.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
What about souls? That’s my great sticking point. Humans are above animals.
No other animal has the luck or curse of rational thought, no other animal knows that it will die. No other animal has morals, or the complexity that the human mind has.
There’s the old thing about energy not being able to be destroyed- how would you account for the energy that is given off when a human dies?
What about accounts of ghosts and hauntings? There are things that happen that are just to strange to be explained away by science.
Thoughts?[/quote]
I disagree with the idea that ‘human are above animals’, in the sense that our abilities are unique. Many other animals have the same traits, not (yet?) as highly developed as ours.
In regards to rational thought, many other animals work in teams, have social heirarchy, use tools etc.
When it comes to morals… many animals that live in packs kill off the weak/sick/injured ones so that the pack as a whole doesn’t suffer - it’s logical and while I don’t know how to look into an animals mind to check out their thought processes, also has elements that could be morality.
I can’t really comment on the death-energy release thing as I haven’t seen the studies. Do other animals have a death-energy release?
As experiences of ghosts are accounts (material proof is always welcome), I think that they fall under the domain of psychological phenomena.
[quote]gojira wrote:
I don’t believe in any invisible entity having control over the universe or our lives.
I don’t believe in miracles.
I don’t believe in the supernatural.
I don’t believe in an afterlife.
I don’t believe I have anymore of a “soul” than an earthworm does.
I’m sure Jesus was a great guy, but just a human guy with some idealistic ideas on how people should live together. Same with Mohammed, Jehovah, etc.
Humans need to feel they are above the natural world and won’t die and decompose and return to the earth like the rest of the organisms on this planet. They like to think they are superior so they have made up this whole “created in God’s image” thing.
They fall easy prey to the promises of an afterlife and the idea that some super being is responsible for all the joy and pain in the world and that there is “a plan” for each of us. It’s a great way to control the masses. And that is what religion is all about - control.
I believe in nature. I believe in a natural order of life. I believe in natural selection.
If you want to give that a name and worship it, more power to ya. But don’t waste your time praying for me to some imaginary superbeing.
You live your life the way you want let me live mine the way I want.
Freedom of religion also includes freedom from religion.
[/quote]
It’s always the people who don’t believe, who seem to know why those that believe-do. To those that believe it has absolutely nothing to do with control. Modern religion is so far removed from the dark ages and the premise there of.
And besides, believing in a God, or supreme being, does not always infer orgainized religion. Irish put it well in that there exists enough information to at least be curious as to the possibilities. Unless you’re all closed up and afraid of what you might find.
I always find those that profess not to believe are about the angriest and surest people in the world. Sad really.
Not, not believing. That is well within your right. Just the absoluteness of your non-belief. Even the majority of believers have opinions and ideas that differ from the mainstream, but never the non believers.
It’s just easier for them to absolutely believe that there is nothing to believe in. Maybe it makes their life easier–I mean not having to think or wonder about anything more than living, dieingm, and decaying.
Believer? But, definately a wonderer!
[quote]swordthrower wrote:
So, the bottom line is that people need to suck it up and not be afraid to look into the void. Sure, its black and empty and eternal, but that’s how it was before you existed, too… he he he.[/quote]
I’m not even sure it’s black and empty and eternal. Simplest explanation I’ve ever heard that for me answered the question of what happens after death is that the individual just goes back to the “place” they were before they were born. No black, no white, no empty, no full, no chaos, no order. Just plain non-existance.
Living things are born/hatched/germinate, live, die, decompose, the atoms disperse, and are incorporated into other living things. Matter is neither created or destroyed in the process. It merely changes form. Big whoop.
Word guys! I’m glad to see like minded people on here. Good discussion. I’m not big on labels, but have no belief or faith in the existence of a higher power.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Irish,
Is it just my impression or does it seem that the ranks of agnostics are populated by former Catholics? Just about everyone I’ve met who considers themselves to be an agnostic was a former Catholic. I myself am a former Catholic turned agnostic.[/quote]
Eh. I think because the Catholic Church is 1) so structured, 2)Does not take well to criticism, and 3) does not condone “thinking for yourself”, and that’s why people may be less happy with it.
I was talking with a English professor who is Jewish, and she said that she was taught to question everything, all the time. Pure Catholicism is very oppressive to free thinkers.
A friend of mine, whose parents are Irish immigrants, told me that Ireland is loaded with atheists, namely because of all the troubles there with Catholicism vs. Protestantism. At this point, kids would rather believe in no god at all then engage in the wars that have dominated Irish politics for a thousand years.
Because Catholicism is about the group, and not the individual (as forms of Protestantism are), I think Americans may be more prone to break away from it.
When your Church tells you something, then claims you will rot in hell eternally for asking “why?”, its no wonder people break away. I said it on a different thread, when I read
“Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man”, I saw alot of myself in there.
So to me, the short answer is yes, Catholics are probably more prone to both doubting god or turning away entirely.
And honestly, this might not be a bad thing. As Marx said so long ago, “Religion is the opiate of the masses”. We’re better off with a less powerful church.
[quote]Hamster wrote:
Jesus could not have possibly been just a “good guy.” He claimed to be God! So it stands to reason that either he was: a)God, or b)a liar and a great deceiver of many!
This idea of him being somewhere in between is hogwash. The only other viable options are that he didn’t exist at all (and thus the New Testament is pure fiction), or that what he said and claimed was misrepresented in the Bible.[/quote]
Or maybe there was an historical Jesus, but the man who lived had his story embellished with each retelling, with miracles added and myths borrowed from other faiths until you get the story we’ve got today.
[quote]There is a growing body of evidence out there to consider when contemplating the existence of the afterlife. Near Death Experiences, “Angel Speaking,” and the like are becoming more openly discussed than ever.
I have read many personal accounts of Near Death Experiences (at least 50 - they’re all over the internet and many in hard copy as well), and they all have incredible similarities in how the affected person describes the experience. [/quote]
Well, alien abduction stories also have many similarities. Does that mean that the phenomenon is true? Or that people who have those delusions (or night terror, or lucid dreams or whatever) already “know” that the alien should be short and grey with large eyes?
I’ve seen enough episode of the X-Files and those ridiculous Roswell documentary to be able to “fake” a complete abduction scenario from memory.
In medieval times, it was vampires and succubi. People had no concept of visitors from outer space, so the visitors where demons and the undead. That many people believed they were attacked at night by vampires doesn’t make them exist.
The other possible explanation for the “light at the end of the tunnel” phenomenon is that it might simply be a side effect of oxygen deprivation in the brain. You’ll see stars and patches of colors if you shut your eyes and rub them vigorously for 30 seconds or so; it doesn’t mean you’re suddenly traveling through a space nebula, it’s just a normal physiological response.
Same thing with the “my life flashed before my eyes” thing; neurons dying fire erratically. When those happen to be neurons related to your memory, you suddenly “remember” a whole bunch of events from your whole life.
That many people have similar experiences is to be expected; we all have the same physiology after all.
Trying to interpret those experiences in relation to the afterlife or other supernatural phenomena, especially when there are many natural explanations, is where people go wrong.
Don’t worry. If there ever was a thread where the supernatural will be discounted, it’s this one. 
[quote]Vyapada wrote:
I disagree with the idea that ‘human are above animals’, in the sense that our abilities are unique. Many other animals have the same traits, not (yet?) as highly developed as ours.
In regards to rational thought, many other animals work in teams, have social heirarchy, use tools etc.
[/quote]
Cavemen did that. I agree.
However, animals have not invented means to fly to other planets, discover electricity, or form massive governments. Too much has happened in the history of men to have been simple coincidence. There was no Descartes of the wolves, saying, “I think therefore I am”, nor a Nietzsche of the wolves saying, “Fuck the pack”.
If there was, of course, and they never figured out a way to communicate this, then that would be irony at its finest.
That’s not morality. That’s animal instinct. Remain unencumbered, live for the greater good, the good of the pack, whatever.
That isn’t how humans are. Now…why humans evolved past this point of pure instinct, into this deep psychological state of mind that we have, that is my greatest argument for some kind of deity, or god, or some kind of balancing force in the universe.
Some are, I agree. But there are some that aren’t. I’d say that probably 90% of the stories are rationally explainable. But that 10% is a hard nut to crack.
Also, on a related note, what about alleged exorcisms? We’ve all seen the movies and all that. I’ve also wondered about people’s thoughts on that…if there is any kind of evil demon, be it a christian one or not, then it proves the existence of god, or at least good spirits (attributable to a god, or God).
I’m just throwing shit out here, don’t mind me.
[quote]violatepropriety wrote:
I agree with Irish… true Atheism is PROOF of the non existence of God. Got it? Lets see it.
[/quote]
The idea of an omni-potent being that creates the human race and then proceeds to punish them for not doing as he wishes is so ridiculous that it really doesn’t require a refutation.
Also, the burden of providing proof falls on the person who puts forward the proposition, and since I’m pretty sure the existence of God was asserted before it was denied, atheists really have no duty to demonstrate his artificiality.
For those wondering about that “energy release at death” thing; it’s been revived by the 2003 movie “21 grams” about a 1907 study where a doctor had 6 terminally ill patients die on scales and came to the conclusion that the “soul” weighs 21 gram.
Link here: 21 Grams › Dr Karl's Great Moments In Science (ABC Science) Googling “21 grams” will get you many more.
I think you are simply talking about language.
With this, I don’t just learn from my life, but I can learn from my parents. With the advent of writing, I don’t just learn from my parents, but I can learn form the smartest person to put thought to paper for thousands of years.
This is a huge difference and explains why mankind progresses. Take away written words and we’d be a living in mud and animal skin huts hunting with rocks and spears.
We wouldn’t be having discussions about how different we are, that is for sure.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
How about agnostic? Or those that think philisophically about whether or not God exists?
I think pure atheists are very few and far between.[/quote]
Interesting comment my friend.
I worked in a nursing home once and I never once saw a dying atheist.
Odd huh?
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
However, animals have not invented means to fly to other planets, discover electricity, or form massive governments.[/quote]
No; but other animals don’t have a brain as large as we do; and many of the species believed to be of moderate intelligence, such as dolphins and maybe octopi have A) No hands, so no tools and B) Are stuck underwater, so no fire.
Note that octopi can easily figure out how to untwist a capped jar to get at food that is inside after seeing a human do it once. So using tools might occur to them, if only they could manage to forge them.
With neither tools nor fire, there isn’t much chance of Flipper building a rocket ship.
Such as?
Why? Maybe intelligence evolves all time and all over the place in the universe. We’ve got a sample of one to work with; coming to any kind of conclusion, much less certainties is iffy at best.
I think the nuts are the ones seeing the ghosts…
What about them?
Well, until we get a demon bottled up for analysis; I’ll stick with there being better medical/psychological explanations for “possession.”
If you’ve ever witnessed someone having an epileptic seizure you’d understand why it might have been seen as being “possessed” in less enlightened times. But it’s faulty brain chemistry, not an invader from the nether regions.
[quote]vroom wrote:
I have always been unable to reconcile all the pain and suffering (not always physical) caused by religion with the concept of a loving and forgiving God.
If there were to be a God, I think it would be extremely disappointed to be the cause of so much strife.
On the other hand, if any God preferred such suffering and strife, then I certainly wouldn’t care to offer it my allegiance.[/quote]
That’s one thing that is certainly weird, even though some would argue that since we were cast out of Eden because of our knowledge of Good and Evil, Man has to grow up and face the pains of life before reaching another plane of existence.
What is more baffeling to me is that these Abrahamic religions fail, at least in my perspective, in aswering the question that generated their existence. The Why.
Why do we exist, why are we here. The Bible generally states (not in the beginning) that we were created to know God, love God and obey God of our own free will. All this for His pleasure and glory.
I keep asking myself why. Why the hell would God, supreme Being, would need glory and pleasure. Is God just a bored little kid? Of course not. Are we then his equals, clearly not for we would have no requirements to obey him, nor love Him (at least in my limited understanding).
So what is the point again, is this like a video game? Like the Sims? Or then is he but a pathetic twurp who just needs a little love, like people who have cats or dogs?
Of course, these are questions aimed at a more primordial level than the actual texts themselves and their inherent problems.
Also, a great host of ‘‘sins’’ against God end up being a little weird and while basically all can be forgiven by the Sacrement of Reconciliation (again with the ‘‘official’’ and clearly non-spiritual aspects of religion) except something like suicide (which can’t be ‘‘absolved’’ since you can’t ask forgiveness after you’ve done it, unless you actually are medically ressuscitated…which by the way makes the whole movie Constantine feel kinda moot) you end up questionning the whole notion of free will in there since basically anything concerning questionning God or your salvation is a sin, dispairing is a sin.
What I find disheartening in that sense is that a parent or a friend of a suicidee can ‘‘forgive’’ that person and understand the pain that that person was suffering and then you tell me that All-Knowing, All-Loving God can’t understand that and will further punish that person for all eternity?
Basically, I end up being pissed at the fact that everything I do is a sin, everything I believe in is a sin. And then, I am screwed completely because I am unapologetic about it.
I am not sorry I masturbate, I like it and I like it alot. I am not sorry I am envious of other people and know that others are envious of me, it makes me strive to achieve more. I have pride in my accomplishments and pride kepts me from giving up.
I want money and earthly things to make my life easier and ease the life of others while I am at it. I lust after basically half the female population. I lie, I’ve lied for myself and for others and sometimes I even feel morally positive about it. I can’t believe in homosexuality being a sin. I like pornography…it goes well with the lusting and the masturbating and if I could fornicate more, I would, day in day out.
I’ve hated to death and I’ve been angry for revenge. I’ve basically never upheld my Sunday duty and I blaspheme on an hourly basis. In the coming years, I’ll even participate in more than my fair share of abortions.
And I can’t repent because I don’t feel sorry about these things. I would feel sorry about missing out on Heaven, but that would just be selfish, so I’m screwed there also.
So in the end, the rules set forth suck and cannot fit with anyone using even but a part of his ‘‘God-given’’ mind.
Therefore why play a game when you’ve already lost.
If God lived amongst us, he’d lose custody of his Children.
AlexH.
Hum, clearly ranting but at least its a somewhat cathartic experience.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Vyapada wrote:
I disagree with the idea that ‘human are above animals’, in the sense that our abilities are unique. Many other animals have the same traits, not (yet?) as highly developed as ours.
In regards to rational thought, many other animals work in teams, have social heirarchy, use tools etc.
Cavemen did that. I agree.
However, animals have not invented means to fly to other planets, discover electricity, or form massive governments. Too much has happened in the history of men to have been simple coincidence. There was no Descartes of the wolves, saying, “I think therefore I am”, nor a Nietzsche of the wolves saying, “Fuck the pack”.
If there was, of course, and they never figured out a way to communicate this, then that would be irony at its finest.
[/quote]
Your point is a good one, but I feel that we have merely taken things to the next level, similar to a social evolution in conjunction to a physical one. What we do isn’t unique, just more developed.
At what point did we evolve a soul? (Ok, I had to ask that!)
I’ve met some pretty unevolved humans, so while we concentrate a lot on the higher levels of human development (we’re a very adaptable critter), there’s a lot of room for lower levels of development in our species.
The ole’ raised by wolves scenario would be an interesting situation to study.
Primates which can ‘communicate’ in sign language is an interesting example of higher level development in a species which otherwise wouldn’t need it to survive.
Also, I’m sure those who own pets recognise individual personality betwwen animals.
I think that our ability to survive so easily means that we’ve found other things to fill up our time.
[quote]Hamster wrote:
Jesus could not have possibly been just a “good guy.” He claimed to be God! So it stands to reason that either he was: a)God, or b)a liar and a great deceiver of many![/quote]
Actually, his claims were pretty common. There were dozens of men who came and went, claiming to be the messiah.
And it’s still going on. Either those who claim to BE the messiah or have special extra-biblical revalations… Jim Jones, David Koresh, Mohammed, Joseph Smith… the list goes on and on.
Also, most everything he taught and most of his parables came from Jewish oral tradition. So, even though non-Jews think he’s terribly original and deep, the Jews, who wrote most of his material, did not.
[quote]vroom wrote:
That isn’t how humans are. Now…why humans evolved past this point of pure instinct, into this deep psychological state of mind that we have, that is my greatest argument for some kind of deity, or god, or some kind of balancing force in the universe.
I think you are simply talking about language.
With this, I don’t just learn from my life, but I can learn from my parents. With the advent of writing, I don’t just learn from my parents, but I can learn form the smartest person to put thought to paper for thousands of years.
This is a huge difference and explains why mankind progresses. Take away written words and we’d be a living in mud and animal skin huts hunting with rocks and spears.
We wouldn’t be having discussions about how different we are, that is for sure.[/quote]
I think this is correct also. I’m a writer. There is no way to calculate the effect that writing and language has on humans, and the progress we have made.
However, I am still talking about the depth of the mine, in Descartes’ deep meanderings about the nature of reality and what not (I hate Descartes, he’s just an example). I know people can say, “well, how do you know they don’t?” but I think thats bullshit. If they had minds capable, we would know about it by now.
Agreed. However, to me, there is always a need for the reason behind why humans evolved to this point and every other species in the history of the world didn’t.
To me, people are just set apart. Animals will never have the mental capacity, the extensive mind, to do what we do.
And I’ll be damned if I can’t look into a man’s eyes and see something about his soul in there. Maybe its just a gut feeling instead of rational thought, of course. But those feelings are hard to ignore.
[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:
Irish,
Is it just my impression or does it seem that the ranks of agnostics are populated by former Catholics? Just about everyone I’ve met who considers themselves to be an agnostic was a former Catholic. I myself am a former Catholic turned agnostic.[/quote]
I am a former Catholic too.
I have no idea if there is a god or not.
I refuse to believe man is the highest form of life though.
True atheists always seem like they are putting on a little act.
There is no way of knowing if there is a higher power than us.
[quote]Vyapada wrote:
At what point did we evolve a soul? (Ok, I had to ask that!)
I’ve met some pretty unevolved humans, so while we concentrate a lot on the higher levels of human development (we’re a very adaptable critter), there’s a lot of room for lower levels of development in our species.
The ole’ raised by wolves scenario would be an interesting situation to study.
Primates which can ‘communicate’ in sign language is an interesting example of higher level development in a species which otherwise wouldn’t need it to survive.
Also, I’m sure those who own pets recognise individual personality betwwen animals.
[/quote]
Good points. I am stuck in some kind of Judeo-Christian view of things, as I’m sure you can tell. And I’m not ready to go either way, either away completely, and certainly not back to it.
Maybe that’s where the soul talk comes from. But, even that aside, I can tell a soul in an astounding novel, I can hear it in a Robert Johnson song. Its those kinds of things, the literature and the arts, that set people apart from other animals. The Michaelangelo’s, the DeVinci’s, the people like that.
The apes that can communicate is a good point. But did we teach them too or did they do it on their own? Because those are certainly two different scenarios.
The problem here is that we judge the rest of the world by our human standards. We look at other animals and consider them “lower” because they can’t build a car. Has it ever occurred to you that the birds may look at us and consider us as “lower” because we can’t do something as simple as flying.
Or turtles that live on the bottom of a pond through winter in an anoxic environment; can we do that? Is it not special because it does not involve technology - a thing we value, because we invented it and NEED it? Insects, birds and other mammals use tools, so why do we think that make us so smart?
And if you want to talk about advanced society, just look to the eusocial insects; the bees and ants.
Step out of your human world for a moment and take a look around at the rest of the living creatures on this planet, and then tell me how “special” we are.
Humans have never impressed me.