T-Nation Atheists

[haney]

[quote]miniross wrote:
haney wrote:
irishrock wrote:
4) I asked you for historical references to Jesus made by people who lived at the same time he did and instances of Atheist leaders who perpetrated acts of violence- you came up empty on both accounts.

Not totally empty he did mention Stalin.

Stalin was a staunch Atheist who push humanity down to being no more than matter to justify his killings. He might have been insane, but he was Atheist.

I personally don’t see how what someone believes has anything to do with the type of person they are. The guys that committed atrocities didn’t need anyone particular belief system/non belief system to be a maniac. The system/non system was really just the tool used to influence the people.

and hitler was a catholic rah rah bloody rah. Thuis phenomenological approach to proof is typical of the faithful (miracles etc).

My murdering dictator is better than your murdering dictator.[/quote]

Didn’t I say that religion or atheism had nothing to do with the people who committed such atrocities?

I am not blaming Atheism for Stalin, anymore than I am blaming Christianity for Hitler. Both are nuts in my opinion, and the belief system/non belief system is not accountable for the nuts.

[Ren]

[quote]miniross wrote:
Ren wrote:
miniross wrote:

[lots of stuff here]

Well, they may not have been monks, but could have been chemists, hairdreesrs or spacemen. We will never know. maybe wone would hev invented the printing press instead of praying every sunday. What religion gave them was the ability to read and write. With that came knowledge, so in that i see your pont, but i doubt their faith in itself drove thier actions.[/quote]

Oh, I agree, the by-products of religion can be replaced by some other field in most cases. I do feel that there have been times when a belief in a higher power was needed, but that those times eventually pass and there is no longer a need for a higher power.

[haney]

[quote]orion wrote:
haney wrote:
.

I personally don’t see how what someone believes has anything to do with the type of person they are. The guys that committed atrocities didn’t need anyone particular belief system/non belief system to be a maniac. The system/non system was really just the tool used to influence the people.

yes, but they usually need a tool and religion lends itself to such purposes so easily.[/quote]

So does patriotism, and any other standard that a large body of people feel passion about.

Look at peta, pro life/pro choice, green peace, hippies, war protestors, or any other group that has a rally call, and you will find nuts that run the whole show.

There are really two people in this world. Those that are looking to lead, and those who are wanting to be lead.

[pookie]

[quote]Gunitgansta wrote:
Another warning from the Bible for you Christ-haters, when will Americans read their Bibles carefully? :[/quote]

Heed the WORDZ of the Babble, Brothaz!

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods.

Yeah, imagine the loss for the coffers of the local church.

In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants,

Yes, a religion of love and peace I see. You a Muslim?

as well as all the livestock.

Can’t have those fuckin atheist cows and chicken contaminating neighboring farms.

Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God.

A-Men brothaz!!! GOD lovz nuthin’ mo’ than a good BBQ!!! A-yuh!

And if you blasphemeth, burn thy mouth so that it please the LORD.

And if you adultereth, torch that harlot who tempteth you that she may shine with the light of the LORD!

You’re right, it all makes a lot of sense. I think I’m feeling the Holy Spirit infusing me right now!

False alarm, just those beans I ate.

That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you.

It’s not logical for an omnipotent being to experience anger. Your God inspires no awe. He’s just an angry brat crying for attention. Worship me-me-me!!! Burn stuff for me! Pray to me! Think of me, but don’t say my name! Neener-neener.

He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Ah yes, always close with a Scripture quote. Let me join you:

“359”

• Bottom of page 359.

[Omnivore]

In regards to God’s existence, I have found that it is fairly futile for me to discuss my “opinions” about what I think or you think or they think. Any dialogue about God predicated on what I think, or feel, or want is simply not productive. There is already an authoritative volume on this subject. It is called the Bible. The Bible details the history of creation and mankind and God’s relationship with it. It is a relationship of progressive revelation culminating in the earthly appearance of His own Son who’s purpose was to redeem that creation and restore it’s proper relationship to the Father. If you want to understand God then start there and read that. Do what T-Nation Men do, seek the truth for yourself and take it straight on the chin.

God has told us everything we need to know about Him and how we are to relate to Him and to each other in His Word. He says we are not to kill and not to steal and to honor our parents, etc, etc, etc. I may not like it or fully understand it but that does not change God. HE still IS and HE still is WHO HE IS! I must strive to comprehend Him as HE Is (not as I would like Him to be)and what HE is up to in this world.

How would you respond to someone that had never seen a bodybuilder and told you they DO NOT BELIEVE muscle hypertrophy is even possible because:

1. they had never seen it
2. they did not fully understand it so it must not be possible or
3. in their “opinion”, they did not “think” or “feel” that such a thing could exist?

I know this forum, we would most likely question their intelligence, insult their ignorance, and belittle their feeble thoughts, feelings, and opinions.

I have a great deal of respect for the people on this site. They are intelligent and knowledgeable and experienced. I don’t tend to ask their advice regarding spiritual matters but I gain a GREAT DEAL from them when I ask them about training and diet and exercise form. You won’t find me asking them if muscles exist, or questioning if growth is even possible since I don’t know everything about it, or stating that, “I just don’t think/feel that squats are a good leg exercise”.

My doubts, my lack of understanding, and my uninformed “opinions” are not really relevant to anything, are they?

[seekingstrength]

[quote]Omnivore wrote:
In regards to God’s existence, I have found that it is fairly futile for me to discuss my “opinions” about what I think or you think or they think. Any dialogue about God predicated on what I think, or feel, or want is simply not productive. There is already an authoritative volume on this subject. It is called the Bible. The Bible details the history of creation and mankind and God’s relationship with it. It is a relationship of progressive revelation culminating in the earthly appearance of His own Son who’s purpose was to redeem that creation and restore it’s proper relationship to the Father. If you want to understand God then start there and read that. Do what T-Nation Men do, seek the truth for yourself and take it straight on the chin.

God has told us everything we need to know about Him and how we are to relate to Him and to each other in His Word. He says we are not to kill and not to steal and to honor our parents, etc, etc, etc. I may not like it or fully understand it but that does not change God. HE still IS and HE still is WHO HE IS! I must strive to comprehend Him as HE Is (not as I would like Him to be)and what HE is up to in this world.

How would you respond to someone that had never seen a bodybuilder and told you they DO NOT BELIEVE muscle hypertrophy is even possible because:

1. they had never seen it
2. they did not fully understand it so it must not be possible or
3. in their “opinion”, they did not “think” or “feel” that such a thing could exist?

I know this forum, we would most likely question their intelligence, insult their ignorance, and belittle their feeble thoughts, feelings, and opinions.

I have a great deal of respect for the people on this site. They are intelligent and knowledgeable and experienced. I don’t tend to ask their advice regarding spiritual matters but I gain a GREAT DEAL from them when I ask them about training and diet and exercise form. You won’t find me asking them if muscles exist, or questioning if growth is even possible since I don’t know everything about it, or stating that, “I just don’t think/feel that squats are a good leg exercise”.

My doubts, my lack of understanding, and my uninformed “opinions” are not really relevant to anything, are they? [/quote]

Which God of the Bible are we supposed to follow? Abraham’s warrior God? The vengeful God of Noah? Jesus’s forgiving God? The problem is the anthropomorphism that goes on througout the Bible and today. It makes God a potent weapon against anyone who is thinks differently.

[miniross]

[quote]Matgic wrote:
miniross wrote:
acslater

I did not know you could be a leading atheist…does that mean he used to not believe more strongly than me?

I haven’t found evidence, have you looked?

If the dictionary definition of anarchy “is the belief that the rulership is unnecessary and should be abolished” can you be a leading anarchist? Of course you can. Noone is simply apathetic towards views religous or non-religous beliefs as noone is completely apathetic to how they should be governed.

You are implying that atheism is imply an inactive form of an apathetic view. It is active disbelief. Because everyone seeks some sort of purpose in their life, those who do not believe in religion will have very different views about their purpose in life and what gives their lives meaning.
-MAtt[/quote]

Well, if you mean i am actively seeking women to inseminate and pass on my genes, then in that i guess you are right.

[miniross]

[quote]Omnivore wrote:
In regards to God’s existence, I have found that it is fairly futile for me to discuss my “opinions” about what I think or you think or they think. Any dialogue about God predicated on what I think, or feel, or want is simply not productive. There is already an authoritative volume on this subject. It is called the Bible. The Bible details the history of creation and mankind and God’s relationship with it. It is a relationship of progressive revelation culminating in the earthly appearance of His own Son who’s purpose was to redeem that creation and restore it’s proper relationship to the Father. If you want to understand God then start there and read that. Do what T-Nation Men do, seek the truth for yourself and take it straight on the chin.

God has told us everything we need to know about Him and how we are to relate to Him and to each other in His Word. He says we are not to kill and not to steal and to honor our parents, etc, etc, etc. I may not like it or fully understand it but that does not change God. HE still IS and HE still is WHO HE IS! I must strive to comprehend Him as HE Is (not as I would like Him to be)and what HE is up to in this world.

How would you respond to someone that had never seen a bodybuilder and told you they DO NOT BELIEVE muscle hypertrophy is even possible because:

1. they had never seen it
2. they did not fully understand it so it must not be possible or
3. in their “opinion”, they did not “think” or “feel” that such a thing could exist?

I know this forum, we would most likely question their intelligence, insult their ignorance, and belittle their feeble thoughts, feelings, and opinions.

I have a great deal of respect for the people on this site. They are intelligent and knowledgeable and experienced. I don’t tend to ask their advice regarding spiritual matters but I gain a GREAT DEAL from them when I ask them about training and diet and exercise form. You won’t find me asking them if muscles exist, or questioning if growth is even possible since I don’t know everything about it, or stating that, “I just don’t think/feel that squats are a good leg exercise”.

My doubts, my lack of understanding, and my uninformed “opinions” are not really relevant to anything, are they? [/quote]

Your comments are always welcomed. They may be suspect, but welcome. What you would do to a person who didnt think hypertrophy is possible is supply or get them to learn on the back of EVIDENCE, which is widely documented, and studied in animals as well as humans.

That is the key difference there. It still amazes me how it must be to know all you need to know as He has told You something.

[irishrock]

[quote]aslater wrote:
Irishrock,

I did not come up empty. Do you doubt all historical figures? We have way more evidence for the existence of Jesus then all other ancient figures combined, why hold Jesus to a higher standard? Why accuse me of overwelming you with the evidence, maybe this is because the evidence itself is overwelming and cannot be helped. The above quotes are written by people who lived during Jesus ministry based on the dates given. 37 a.d? How is it a stretch to say someone was alive during 33ad and 37 ad? [/quote]

It is a bit of an overstatement to say that we have more proof of the existence of Jesus than all other historical figures combined. Again- I go back to my point- that the only references to Jesus are made by historians who lived after he died. You can deny it if you want- but there are many who do not believe he ever lived

As far as Hitler being an athiest, I came to this conclusion based on his leaning of the teachings of Nietzshe who was an atheist. Either way, who cares? This adds little to the actuall debate and is a side issue and not even relevant to the topic at hand.

Agreed that this is not pertinent to the discussion at hand- but you stated that Hitler was an Atheist- you were incorrect. I was just simply pointing that out. Conservative pundits love to point out Atheism as the cause of many evils.

[KeepAwaySheeple]

Atheism is a form of arrogance.

[Lorisco]

[quote]pookie wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Really? Ok, explain to me where the sun came from and why it burns without burning out?

The sun is burning out. It just needs about 5 billions years more to do so.
[/quote]
Prove it!

You guys don’t get it. Theory is not fact! Hello! You would have been one of the guys yelling that the world was flat until it was actually proved to be round. But because the current theory was that it was flat, then that would be fine with you and treated as fact.

Get over it bro. Theories are just ideas until proven. Just because you believe the theory to be true does not make it more true.

Your arguments show that you know nothing of science. You simply keep restating “talking points” taken from religious web sites with absolutely no understanding of the underlying science you attack.

How a star burns and the life cycle of stars are taught in basic high-school physics. Or they used to be. You’re telling us you believe in God because you don’t understand how the sun burns? Sheesh.

All theories bro. Just because someone comes up with an idea on how they think things work doesn’t make it fact. And you, bro, are the one who doesn’t understand science or the scientific method. Because if you did you would know that evolutionary science doesn’t follow that model of scientific inquiry because it has never thrown out the idea of evolution even when it has not been proven correct.

There are trillions upon trillions of stars in the universe. Some of those have planets. Just by sheer weight of numbers, it is inevitable that some planets will be placed in spots amenable to life.

You might want to ask a statistician about the odds of this just happening randomly. It’s a number much larger then the national debt! Wow bro, you must be a gambling man!

No, what we have is called education. I suggest you get one. You’re one of the most ignorant posters we’ve had on the whole site in a long time.

At least I know that education on theories is still not fact. Maybe you should go back to school to learn the difference between fact and supposition.

Science is a lot younger than that, but has in its relatively short life answered many questions much better than ancient religions. Examples:

The Earth isn’t flat and doesn’t have corners. You can’t fall off of it. (Might be news to you…)

True, but the scientific community at the time had a theory that is was flat. So according to that it would mean that you would have believed it as well and also thought it was fact.

Just because we don’t yet have all the answers doesn’t mean we should give up on the process and invoke “God” as the reason for everything we haven’t figured out.

Then we can also say that just because science hasn’t disproved the existence of a God or the theory of God existing, doesn’t mean that it won’t be proven later. If you are truly searching for truth then you should be open to all possibilities as knowledge increases. So ruling out the existence of God without proof the theory is incorrect, would also be giving up on the process.

Faith in science and faith that Man is up to the task of figuring out this world of ours? Ok, I can live with that.

Now we are getting somewhere. So you admit your faith is in man. That’s cool, but just try and be open to all the possibilities and not just locked into one theory arrogantly believing the world is flat because some scientist came up with the idea. .

[pookie]

[quote]FlyingEmuOfDoom wrote:
Atheism is a form of arrogance.[/quote]

Faith is a form of ignorance.

[bonzi50]

“Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.” - Karl Marx

[TheArrow]

Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.

Give a man religion, and he starves to death praying for a fish.

[pookie]

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Drivel.
[/quote]

This is getting tedious. Learn how science works.

Theories are never proven.

Theories aren’t just random ideas that scientist pull out of their asses after a night at the pub.

Science offers nothing better than theories. Science wants theories to be tested and invalidated and replaced with better theories; that’s how the whole process works.

Your view of science has absolutely no relation with the real thing. I really hope you’re just beginning high school or something.

[LoneLobo]

[quote]gojira wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

What about souls? That’s my great sticking point. Humans are above animals.

No other animal has the luck or curse of rational thought, no other animal knows that it will die. No other animal has morals, or the complexity that the human mind has.

And you know this how? How do you know that animals don’t know they can die? If animals don’t know they can and will die then why do they avoid predation? You can try to say it is instinct and they are hard wired that way, but can that also apply to us? Many of our behaviors are based upon hard wired instinct that is the product of our genes.

There’s the old thing about energy not being able to be destroyed- how would you account for the energy that is given off when a human dies?

What are you talking about? How are humans any different than anything else? All organisms are run on chemicals and energy. (Delta G, baby - 3 Kg/mole per hydrogen bond).

What about accounts of ghosts and hauntings? There are things that happen that are just to strange to be explained away by science.

Thoughts?
Because we want to believe. That’s why.
[/quote]

The “rock in flight” a la I Am Charlotte Simmons

Throw a rock, and in the middle of its journey downward, give it rational thought. It will summarize and rationalize its actions up to that point, explain why it’s travelling downward, and what it intends to do once it gets there.

[system]

However we select from nature a complex [of phenomena] using the criterion of simplicity, in no case will its theoretical treatment turn out to be forever appropriate (sufficient)… I do not doubt that the day will come when [general relativity], too, will have to yield to another one, for reasons which at present we do not yet surmise. I believe that this process of deepening theory has no limits.
– Albert Einstein

[Headhunter]

“You may not believe in Me, but I believe in you.”
— from the movie ‘Oh, God’
starring none other than
George Burns.

[DPH]

[quote]haney wrote:
it would be a debate form an an informal fallacy

Affirmative conclusion from a negative premise

[/quote]

haney’s argument: If there is a God he would give proof that he exist, since I don’t see any proof there must not be a God.

hmm…

your argument is not a categorical syllogism nor are there any negative premises so it can’t suffer from an affirmative conclusion from a negative premise fallacy…

this is what I think is wrong with your argument…

(1) God’s nature is such that he must give definative proof of His existence
(2) there is no definative proof of God’s existance
(3) therefore, God does not exist

this seems to be a valid argument, but is it sound?

I believe that this arguments weak point is the first premise…why would it be necessary for God to prove His own existance? the first premis is clearly false…

the conditional in this argument is a conjunction so both premises have to be true for the conclusion to be true…since the first premise is false the conclusion is false also…the argument is unsound…

anyways…maybe I’m still misunderstanding your argument or maybe I’ve made some glaring mistake in my analysis…I’ve never been good at thinking so it’s certainly possible that I mest up…

what do you think?

[Ren]

[quote]Lorisco wrote:

A bunch of crap he has no idea about concerning theories

[/quote]

mate, if you want to talk theories, go check out the 2 evolution/ID threads. Some VERY smart people, smarter than most of us , highlighted what it is that makes a scientific theory fact.

Oh yeah, earth is flat theory, bad call. While you want to say it is a theory, and fact, it was not fact, since all you had to do was circumnavigate the globe, or at least go far enough till you hit the north american continent and are lefting scratching your head wondering why you hadn’t hit the edge of the earth.

The theories we talk about have been study, theorized, tested and proven true time and time again. Please learn basic science before you go railing against theories, something you and every other ID loving idiot loves to do.