T-Nation Atheists

[quote]miniross wrote:
How precisely has it been “proved wrong”. What happens is an original idea is modified. there has been nof evidence that outweighs that of natiral selection and fossil record.
[/quote]
The fossil record does not demonstrate a missing link between humans and apes. That is why that theory has been proven wrong. Well, I guess instead of saying been proven wrong, we should say has not been proven right.

Bro, there is no need for name calling.

I fully understand that according to evolutionary theory there are thousands to millions of intermediary species. That fact only makes your case weaker as none of these exist in the fossil record. So instead of having just one missing link, you have millions. This just makes the theory less feasible.

Theory without proof is just a guess. And in that regard the theory of evolution has the same evidence as the theory of ID. It is the very same evidence, just put together differently. And that is fine. But what is truly troubling is the arrogance that guys like you tout evolution theory as fact or more fact that ID. When the truth is they both use the same evidence to support their theory. So since they are both theory with the same supporting evidence, they are both equally valid.

Bro, without proof it requires faith to believe. Again, theories remain such until proven. Evolution has not been proven. So it requires faith to believe it.

Really? Ok, explain to me where the sun came from and why it burns without burning out? Explain to me why it is in the EXACT position to support life on earth when a few feet closer of father away would mean the earth freezing or burning up? And this, mind you, is only one small condition required to sustain life on earth, not to mention the 1,000,000,000 of other conditions needed to be exactly right to even allow life to evolve, as you say. Dude, you don’t give yourself enough credit; you have way more faith than I have Bro. To believe that all these very precise actions and situations could just randomly occur, WOW, that is faith!

In the millions or years (according to evolution) that man has been on the earth, man still cannot answer these same questions. So if you were really honest and knew what you were talking about you would realize that the more we learn about the natural world, the more we realize that we don’t know shit!

[quote]
One thing you have done is make the association between science and atheism, as the 2 are intrinsically linked. Me, on the operating table would pot for a scientific methodology of reason and evidence. you it seems, may just pick faith.

Good luck[/quote]

Now you are just being funny! Don’t you mean faith that your doctor knows what the hell he is doing and that he didn’t stay up late the night before the operation partying?

You seem to think you can live without faith, but the fact is that you cannot. You just put your faith in a different place than I do.

Religions esp. Christianity are simply fables that have been created by human beings to explain all the things we don’t know or can’t understand (i.e. how the earth was created and how humans came to be). Many humans cannot grasp the concept that there are simply things that we will never know and will never be able to understand. Religion(s) were created to fill this void of not knowing.

“I wonder how the world was created?”

“I don’t know!!!”

“Must have been created by someone or something. Maybe it was this great power. Let’s call it ‘God’”

Christianity is no more than a bunch of fables created to bridge the uncertainities and unanswered questions in life. It was created to keep people under control–To instill fear in people so that they wouldn’t steal, kill, or any of the other 10 commandments you want to choose from. How better to control a population of chaotic, uneducated, lower class people than to give them 10 rules and tell them that they will be tormented by fire for eternity if they choose not to obey. Must we forget how naive people were when religion(s) began to take hold. I mean after all people thought the fucking earth was flat!!! Why wouldn’t they believe in some great deity who would toast their ass like Stay-puff Marshmallows?

I find it hard to take people seriously who believe that Christianity is the ultimate religion. Are you telling me that evey Buddist is going to burn in Hell for praying to Buddha instead of Jesus. Man, get a good fucking firm grip on your ears and pull your head out of your ass. Is every Native American Indian who died before Christianity reached the U.S. burning in Hell right now as we speak?

How can you honestly respect a religion that was brought to America by people who killed native americans when they were not able to convert them?

How many people have died b/c of religious wars? A lot!!! Just drop the religious crap already. There are not Gods, Goddesses, Jesus(es), or Hey-Zeus (whatever your pronuciation might be).

GET OVER RELIGION!! IT IS ALL LIES USED TO KEEP FROM BEHAVING UNCIVIL AND TO TRY TO ANSWER ALL THE THINGS WE AS HUMANS DON’T KNOW!!!

[quote]pookie wrote:
It seems to be pretty common for the believers to try and “prove” God’s existence thru mechanisms that can equally be applied to just about anything else.

For example,

  • The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a being who possesses every perfection.

  • Existence is a perfection.

  • Therefore, the FSM exists.

  • Arrr! Bow before your Noodly Creator matey!

You don’t believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Prove he doesn’t exist. If you can’t you must believe in his Saucy Presence.
[/quote]

I agree you can’t disprove anything someone wants to belief in. I think Dale Carnegie said it best " A man forced to change his opinion is of the same one still. Whatever you believe to be truth is what you will cling to unless you are really searching for yourself. God/no God/undecided you believe what you do because up to this point you have found something compelling that makes you think what you think.

I don’t think proof is really every the heart of the matter. It is more or less the baggage that comes along with what you choose to believe.

I don’t think any side of this issue is with out a reason of why they believe. I think there are plenty on the side of Faith/undecided that don’t know the slightest bit about what to believe other than what someone has told them. I can’t say that about most Atheist (by this I mean strong Atheists) since they are an extreme minority in the world, that means there are fewer that aren’t educated about why they think what they do.

This is not really all that surprising since many people don’t know what is going outside of primetime TV. I think it is sad that so many are satisfied to be “led around by the nose” when it comes to what they believe.

I said it earlier I am constantly refining my faith, and trying to pursue what I believe to be truth. I don’t prescribe to anyone Christian Dogma, and in many cases I would be considered a heretic in the Baptist Church I attend. Why do I still go because to that church you might ask. simple I feel at home there. It is a place where people who I agree with on many topics, and share very similiar belief’s are. I also enjoy the spirit of caring for each other that everyone has.

Can an atheist belong to groups with the same qualities? I would wager that you could.

I know I rambled a little bit, but I don’t think proof/reason to believe what we have talked about up to this point is absent in any of the three groups we have discussed.

The believer of a faith has a foundation that has some historical truth, and moral codes that he puts his faith in. The agnostic looks at all that is going on and is mostly trying to what belief fits with his reality. The Atheist weighs what he believes to be the best facts at the time to determine if there is a God.

To me I think pursuing truth should include all three of these views. It is too bad most people on get good at one of them.

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Really? Ok, explain to me where the sun came from and why it burns without burning out?[/quote]

The sun is burning out. It just needs about 5 billions years more to do so.

Your arguments show that you know nothing of science. You simply keep restating “talking points” taken from religious web sites with absolutely no understanding of the underlying science you attack.

How a star burns and the life cycle of stars are taught in basic high-school physics. Or they used to be. You’re telling us you believe in God because you don’t understand how the sun burns? Sheesh.

There are trillions upon trillions of stars in the universe. Some of those have planets. Just by sheer weight of numbers, it is inevitable that some planets will be placed in spots amenable to life.

And who’s to say that life can’t appear and evolve on planets in different orbits. There might be life on the moons of Jupiter; there certainly are enough factors present to allow it.

No, what we have is called education. I suggest you get one. You’re one of the most ignorant posters we’ve had on the whole site in a long time.

Science is a lot younger than that, but has in its relatively short life answered many questions much better than ancient religions. Examples:

The Earth isn’t flat and doesn’t have corners. You can’t fall off of it. (Might be news to you…)

The Earth is not at the center of the universe; it’s not even at the center of the solar system.

Stars are distant suns, not pinpricks in a celestial roof.

Wind is not caused by God farting.

Thunder is not God bowling.

etc, etc.

Just because we don’t yet have all the answers doesn’t mean we should give up on the process and invoke “God” as the reason for everything we haven’t figured out.

You should stop talking about learning; it is so fucking obvious that you’ve done very little of it. You should put aside your Babble and get a library card.

Faith in science and faith that Man is up to the task of figuring out this world of ours? Ok, I can live with that.

Irishrock? Cant remember if it was you or someone else but the historical evidence for Jesus existence isnt even debatable. He is mentioned my numerous sources. the only one that is questionable is a passage from Josephus and the majority of the text isnt in question but only a couple of lines. Even if you throw this out, there are numerous mentionings of Jesus and scholars dont even debate the historical Jesus.

As to the atrocities of religion I agree with what was said. Religion has done some horrible things throughout history but so has atheistic belief leaders as well. Also the killings, witchtrials, crusades are contrary to what Jesus tought. This is unique to Christianity. The islamic-extremists are doing what they are told to do. Nowhere does Jesus say to kill those who arent believers or refuse to believe. True CHristianity is somewhat anti-religion as Jesus even speaks about this in the new testament. To read good accounts for both sides of the issue look up William lane craigs debates with numerous atheists or liberal scholars. . .

Austin

Come on Haney, how are we going to debate anything if you start posting sensible and reasonable posts like that?

Simply unacceptable. :slight_smile:

[quote]pookie wrote:
Faith in science and faith that Man is up to the task of figuring out this world of ours? Ok, I can live with that.
[/quote]
Can I get a “Ramen”!

Interesting thread. Religion is always an interesting topic to bring up, especially when you get religious vs non-religious folks going at it. So to start off, back in my teens I was one of those born-again christians. Did the whole rededicate my life to god deal, was very active in my church and local youth group, all that jazz.

It was cool, until I started to realize it wasn’t for me. It was the little things that started to get under my skin. The constant mission we had to save people, that this was our sole purpose on the earth. The rules on what you can and cannot do, what is “good” and what is “evil” (they wanted me to be a leader in the youth group, 1 catch, couldn’t date girls. why? god had someone special in mind for me and I’ll know her when I see her kinda thing. Not cool). By this point I had read the bible, front to back, and began having lengthy conversations with a family friend about religion. In the end I decided to come to my own conclusions about these things, that I needed to find the answers myself, and I needed to not blindly follow some ideology because it was what everyone else had been doing for a good 2000 years.

So there, been there done that. Where do I stand today is the big question. I don’t believe in “God” as most religions, be it christians, catholics, muslims, mormoms, describe him. To be frankly honest, I feel organized religion is the longest standing atrocity mankind has ever and will ever seen. Do I believe in some sort of a “higher power”? Well, kinda. I like to tell myself that there is something after I die. Maybe resurrection on another plane of existence. Maybe ascendance to a higher plane of consciousness, somethong. Why do I believe this? Maybe to comfort myself, to believe that in the grand scheme of things my 80+ years (hopefully) of existence will be more than just a skidmark on the underoos of reality. Or maybe its because at 22 I still have an over-active imagination. I still love dragons, and fantasy novels, and mages, wizards, orcs, heroes and crap, and think it would be totally awesome to be a champion/avatar of some badass deity in a fantasty-based plane of existence. (yeah, crazy huh?)

I believe that we can’t hold everything to be the ultimate truth. Just cos the sun rose yesterday, doesn’t mean it is gonna rise tomorrow. Odds are it will, but there IS a chance it won’t. I believe you can’t spend your life constrained by the fervent hope that everything you do will grant you some sort of eternal salvation. That you live your life accordingly to meet this end that some book --that is only a decent account of ancient history at best – tells you to.

I believe that inner peace can be found, you just have to look for it. Anything that people like Zeb say having god in your life will give you, can be found elsewhere. I know the christians will give me flak for that, but its true. A lot of people probably know the power of the mind, visualization, and reinforcement. I feel that this is the biggest factor why some people have so much success when they get “born-again” or converted. Subconsciously they don’t believe they are living a life, they have these thoughts ingrained from childhood about religion and god and Jesus stirring about in the depths of their minds. Then something happens, a happy christian disciple decides to take him under their wing, and those thoughts start pulling this religious influence as the answer. Guess what, tell the mind something long enough and hard enough and it will seek to make it a reality. (coincidentally this is also what causes people to be “overcome by the holy spirit” or whatever it is they call it. You want it bad enough, so the mind manifests it, and boom, god patted your head and you feel all super happy or whatever).

I choose to live my life as I see fit, holding myself to standards that I deem worthy of living. Experiencing and doing things that christians might frown upon, but which I feel should be experienced to truly understand myself. My next goal is to study far eastern mysticism a little bit (I took who knows how many classes on christian and islamic history in college, and read enough books during that time to be sick of western religions). Remember that strong words of the other day? “Beware the man of one book” or something, you bible thumpers should consider that.

I could go on, about how religious dominance in society has coincided with a lack of freedom, scientific advancement, etc, etc. How christianity set back western society a couple of hundred years (while the muslims were flourishing coincidentally). But I won’t. They’ll quote the bible and state that that was then and this is now, so its pointless. People blinded by their faith tend to look disparagingly on other viewpoints.

Another warning from the Bible for you Christ-haters, when will Americans read their Bibles carefully? :

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

[quote]obatiger11 wrote:
Religions esp. Christianity are simply fables that have been created by human beings… [/quote]

2 Peter 1: 16, 17 & 18:

[b]We did not follow cleverly invented fables when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.[/quote]

[quote]aslater wrote:
Irishrock? Cant remember if it was you or someone else but the historical evidence for Jesus existence isnt even debatable. He is mentioned my numerous sources. the only one that is questionable is a passage from Josephus and the majority of the text isnt in question but only a couple of lines. Even if you throw this out, there are numerous mentionings of Jesus and scholars dont even debate the historical Jesus.

Austin[/quote]

Not true. Do a search on the historical proof of the existence of Jesus- you will find plenty of scholarly debate. Furthermore- try and find references to him made by people who lived during the time Jesus was alleged to have lived.

You can choose to believe Jesus was a real person- but you can’t deny there is a debate about whether or not he did live- a simple Google search will demonstrate that there is still a population of scholars who doubt his existence.

As for your claims that there were plenty of crimes perpetrated by Atheist leaders. Can you name a few? Before you do- lest I remind you that Hitler cites his belief in God in his seminal writing “Mein Kampf”.

Ren, awesome post. I have hope yet that we as a society can quit bickering about our silly beliefs–whether atheist or not. Modesty keeps me from believing that my opinions are the end-all-be-all of civilization.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
obatiger11 wrote:
Religions esp. Christianity are simply fables that have been created by human beings…

2 Peter 1: 16, 17 & 18:

[b]We did not follow cleverly invented fables when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Chuck Norris, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

For he received honor and glory from Chuck Norris when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my champion kickboxer, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with Chuck Norris on the sacred mountain.

[/quote]

[quote]Gunitgansta wrote:
Another warning from the Bible for you Christ-haters, when will Americans read their Bibles carefully? :

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. “The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him.” (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)
[/quote]

And so says my usb 2.0 flash drive owner?s manual:

2.3.4 The wizard finds the appropriate driver and Windows is now ready to install the driver.Click the “Next” button to begin installing the drivers. Click the “Back” button to specify the location again if the drivers are not found.

Historical writers mentioning Jesus:
Following is a list of extra biblical (outside of the Bible) references of biblical events, places, etc. The list is not exhaustive but is very representative of what is available.

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2

“Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and that very justly, as a punishment of what he did against John, that was called the Baptist: for Herod slew him, who was a good man, and commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, both as to righteousness towards one another, and piety towards God, and so to come to baptism; for that the washing [with water] would be acceptable to him, if they made use of it, not in order to the putting away [or the remission] of some sins [only], but for the purification of the body; supposing still that the soul was thoroughly purified beforehand by righteousness.”

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus. For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions James, the brother of Jesus - Antiquities, Book 20, ch. 9.

“Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done.”

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Ananias the High Priest who was mentioned in Acts 23:2

Now as soon as Albinus was come to the city of Jerusalem, he used all his endeavors and care that the country might be kept in peace, and this by destroying many of the Sicarii. But as for the high priest, Ananias (25) he increased in glory every day, and this to a great degree, and had obtained the favor and esteem of the citizens in a signal manner; for he was a great hoarder up of money

Acts 23:2, “And the high priest Ananias commanded those standing beside him to strike him [Paul] on the mouth.”

Tacitus (A.D. c.55-A.D. c.117, Roman historian) mentions “christus” who is Jesus - Annals 15.44

“Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular.”

Ref. from http://classics.mit.edu/Tacitus/annals.mb.txt

Thallus Circa AD 52, eclipse of the sun. Thallus wrote a history of the Eastern Mediterranean world from the Trojan War to his own time. His writings are only found as citations by others. Julius Africanus who wrote about AD 221 mentioned Thallus’ account of an eclipse of the sun.

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

Is this a reference to the eclipse at the crucifixion? Luke 23:44-45, “And it was now about the sixth hour, and darkness fell over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 the sun being obscured; and the veil of the temple was torn in two.”

The oddity is that Jesus’ crucifixion occurred at the Passover which was a full moon. It is not possible for a solar eclipse to occur at a full moon. Note that Julius Africanus draws the conclusion that Thallus’ mentioning of the eclipse was describing the one at Jesus’ crucifixion. It may not have been.

Julius Africanus, Extant Writings, XVIII in the Ante?Nicene Fathers, ed. by Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973), vol. VI, p. 130. as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Pliny the Younger mentioned Christ. Pliny was governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. Pliny wrote ten books. The tenth around AD 112.

“They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food?but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

The Talmud

“On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, “He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.” But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!”

Gal. 3:13, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree.”

Luke 22:1, “Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which is called the Passover, was approaching. 2And the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how they might put Him to death; for they were afraid of the people.”

This quotation was taken from the reading in The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, p. 281 as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Lucian (circa 120-after 180) mentions Jesus. Greek writer and rhetorician.

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day?the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.”

Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11?13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4, as cited in Habermas, Gary R., The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ, (Joplin, MO: College Press Publishing Company) 1996.

Though Lucian opposed Christianity, he acknowledges Jesus, that Jesus was crucified, that Christians worship him, and that this was done by faith.

The historical Jesus is debated by very, very few. You can find people that still believe the world is flat so just becuase you can find a few in a google search doesnt mean that they hold much credit, regardless the above listing should answer your question.

as far as atheistic leaders causing harm are you debating this? Hitler was an athiest and believed in a naturalistic worldview and based his supieror race theory on this. This is a moot point and the whole point was that bad things have been done by people claiming to be religious or non-religous and doesnt prove anything. I think its safe to say that Hitler, Musilini, Saddam, Stalin etc didnt hold to Jesus’ teachings or hold to a christian world view. Before Hitlers relations to the catholic church are mentioned, I will say this was soley a political move on hitlers part and not based on his true faith in the church.

Austin

[quote]irishrock wrote:
aslater wrote:
Irishrock? Cant remember if it was you or someone else but the historical evidence for Jesus existence isnt even debatable. He is mentioned my numerous sources. the only one that is questionable is a passage from Josephus and the majority of the text isnt in question but only a couple of lines. Even if you throw this out, there are numerous mentionings of Jesus and scholars dont even debate the historical Jesus.

Austin

Not true. Do a search on the historical proof of the existence of Jesus- you will find plenty of scholarly debate. Furthermore- try and find references to him made by people who lived during the time Jesus was alleged to have lived.

You can choose to believe Jesus was a real person- but you can’t deny there is a debate about whether or not he did live- a simple Google search will demonstrate that there is still a population of scholars who doubt his existence.

As for your claims that there were plenty of crimes perpetrated by Atheist leaders. Can you name a few? Before you do- lest I remind you that Hitler cites his belief in God in his seminal writing “Mein Kampf”.

[/quote]

You are correct there is debate. It is not a strong one though. Last I checked the majority of scholars who doubted Jesus existing was a minority.

On a practical note, Jesus fame most likely would not have drawn that much attention outside of Judea. It was a short ministry, and He was not from a well known family, nor did most of the people who were in charge of the land care too much about him. Even in the gospels Pilate seems to have very little knowledge of who he was.

There are plenty of historical figures that are given credit, and we have even less information written about them during their time (by information I mean the gospels as well as Tacitus, Josephus, and any other historian). So why be so hard on the possibility of his existance?

I can understand not taking the gospels whole, but to doubt his existance is in many ways holding him to a standard that we don’t hold others to.

[quote]pookie wrote:
Come on Haney, how are we going to debate anything if you start posting sensible and reasonable posts like that?

Simply unacceptable. :)[/quote]

I am sorry! let me try again.

Sinners repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is nigh at hand!

Turn of Burn.

get with Jesus and get in the mix in 2006.

All Christians are going to Heaven, but only baptist are traveling first class.

If only I had my religious quips book, I could really convince you guys of how it needs to be.

[quote]aslater wrote:

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?) mentions Jesus - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

There is debate among scholars as to the authenticity of this quote since it is so favorable to Jesus. For more information on this, please see Regarding the quotes from the historian Josephus about Jesus

[/quote]

This quote if genuine is most likely meant to be insulting, and not in praise of Jesus.

[quote]aslater wrote:
Historical writers mentioning Jesus:

Flavius Josephus (AD 37?-101?, a Jewish historian) mentions John the Baptist and Herod - Antiquities, Book 18, ch. 5, par. 2

The historical Jesus is debated by very, very few. You can find people that still believe the world is flat so just becuase you can find a few in a google search doesnt mean that they hold much credit, regardless the above listing should answer your question.

as far as atheistic leaders causing harm are you debating this? Hitler was an athiest and believed in a naturalistic worldview and based his supieror race theory on this. This is a moot point and the whole point was that bad things have been done by people claiming to be religious or non-religous and doesnt prove anything. I think its safe to say that Hitler, Musilini, Saddam, Stalin etc didnt hold to Jesus’ teachings or hold to a christian world view.

Austin [/quote]

  1. Are you trying to overwhelm us with data? I asked for references to Jesus made by historians at the time he lived. There were none in the many you cited.

  2. I dispute the belief Jesus ever existed- and I am not the only one. There are more than a few who believe jesus did not exist. You said it is not debatable- it is.

  3. Hitler was not an Atheist. You stated twice that he is an Atheist. You are incorrect. He may not have been Christian- but he was not an Atheist- evidenced by this quote from Mein Kampf “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”

  4. I asked you for historical references to Jesus made by people who lived at the same time he did and instances of Atheist leaders who perpetrated acts of violence- you came up empty on both accounts.

[quote]aslater wrote:
Wow,

This thread has gone nuts since the last time I checked. Ive only skimmed over the posts and dont even know where to start. I do see alot of misinformation in a few of the posts. Modern scolarship has the new testament written earlier then was previously thought. Even the most liberal scholars have parts of the new testament written within 1 lifetime of Jesus and there is ample evidence that the gap between Jesus life and the first written copies of the new testament were even much shorter then that.

I was once an adnostic/athiest depending on whose definition you use and was challenged to look at the evidence. After taking an honest look Im now a Christian and the evidence in my opinion points strongly to the bible being Gods word. For me it took more faith to hold on to my current views then to believe the bible. This is subjective and doesnt make me right but nonetheless is enough for me to believe.

I also find it funny that Christians or theists are un-intelligent and dont think rationally. I could use the same arguement against athiesm and ask how does life come from non-life? Where does information come from? How do you explain our souls which dont have matter but obviously exist? In a naturalistic world view you have to take things by faith just as a thiest does becuase nothing can explain the above objections to athiesm. Doesnt mean they will never be answers but you have to accept it by faith nonetheless.

Antony Flew the worlds leading atheist and well know debator actually changed his stance and while not holding to a particular religion, believes in a “God” of some kind. He said to be intellectually honest with himself he had to admit that the evidence for Gods existence outwieghed the evidence for atheism. I respect him for being honest an open minded which seems to be missing in this age old debate. Im a Christian and havent found an arguement or evidence to convince me otherwise yet and Ive read just about every biblical textual critisism book, atheist/theist debate and whatever else I could get my hands on and tried to be open minded on the subject. Sorry for rambling, its about bed time. God Bless

Austin[/quote]

I did not know you could be a leading atheist…does that mean he used to not believe more strongly than me?

I haven’t found evidence, have you looked?