I think more education is a good thing, but I’m not sold either way (why I started the thread). I’ve seen people with what many would call useless degrees use them to get to high positions as well. The general education in college is important too.
I can see situations going into the future where high school education isn’t going to cut it. We don’t know what will happen though.
You raise a lot of good questions and points, but most skilled trades pay very well. Most also are taught/learned on the job or provide knowledge on certain trade schools that would be valuable in learning said trade . Most trade schools are also rather short and cheap when comparing them to normal 4 year degrees. I’ve never met a person struggling to pay off their debt from a school loan to learn how to be a plumber/welder/lineman/electrician/skilled construction.
It’s called reading and observing. After being scare mongered for decades people still push and believe that the deficit/debt is a serious problem and that the budget should be balanced. Japan owes twice as America in terms of debt to GDP ratio. And where is the hyperinflation? Probably right around the corner like America’s. The sky is falling, alert! Even though it hasn’t happened in decades it still is pushed. People like Peter Schiff and the like ought to be completely embarrassed but are still around and have followers. The economic philosophy has been discredited for so long. Any rational person would go back to the drawing board and try and figure out what they got wrong. But not these people they just dig in their heels and try to push their debunked theories even more. Absolutely sad and anti-intellectual.
I do agree with this … must get tiresome telling the same story for decades with no much to show for it … BUT even a blind squirrel gets a nut from time to time …
Looking at the opposite side, though, you have instances of bad monetary policies actually causing havoc in places like Venezuela, Argentina, Germany, etc … examples do exist and ignoring them is just as anti intellectual as not reexamining a failed prognostication, no?
And what were the causes of these?
And then what?
Don’t know, Greenspan, how’s about you elucidate us common folk
Speaking of Greenspan Greenspan: "There is nothing to prevent the government from creating as much money as it wants." - YouTube here he is explaining that money creation IS NOT what causes inflation. It is the lack of productivity. For an Ayn Rand accolyte like Ryan, it must have been very difficult to explain this inconvenient fact. Ryan’s argument goes up in smoke. Like all gold-standard fools. BTW, how do we pay for all those wars in the mid-east? Trillions of dollars spent.
The trades are a great option for many. It’s weird how the negative that gets repeated is wrong- they usually pay very well for entry/low level, and pretty good with more experience. More money earned early, saved and invested can make up for less money earned later during someones peak earning years at an office job. Another benefit is that what you learn on the job will save you money on your own home renovation, or house flipping side projects, and you get bro deals on labor and material when needed.
The downsides are a lower pay ceiling, typically long hours, changing (oftentimes LONG) commutes to jobsites and the biggest negative of all IMO… it beats the shit out of your body. I ski/bike with a lot of electricians, carpenters, plumbers, welders etc and every single one over the age of 35 (and some under) has chronic pain issues ranging from arthritic hands and wrists, to bad backs, to unrepaired knees because they couldnt afford to take the time off work to get it fixed and rehab properly. And that includes dudes that own their own companies now.
The big issue I see with the argument of “people don’t need to go into debt (or very much debt), they just should go to trade school” is that it ignores the fact that we only have demand for so many plumbers, welders, machinists, electricians, mechanics… If too many people listen to that advice, then they will no longer get paid well, or they will be unemployed.
So maybe the argument should be that there are only so many good paying jobs out there for people. If people start flocking to a particular industry without an equal increase in demand for those workers then employers can just lower the pay. Have we increased the requirements for employement across the board, without increasing the pay? Probably. Why are the requirements so much higher than 30 years ago, for a job with essentially the same duties and expectations as 30 years ago?
Maybe its a situation of there are only so many good paying jobs available, so why encourage people who know they wont be getting one of those jobs, to rack up big debt as part of their “job training”? Maybe its the general university system that is the problem where everyone pays the same amount to get the same general first couple years of education… when most industries would benefit from having their entry level emoloyees go to two years of industry specific schooling. Doesnt germany do something like this where people go to specific universities for specific fields, instead of every university having every field of study like the US?
Couldn’t you argue the same way for many college degrees?
That’s honestly why I feel many jobs, even supposed entry level, look for people with 5+ years experience- because they could.
Well, ya, I think we’re all arguing in regards to the “extreme” cases.
I think most people can pay off their student loan with proper planning and time. There are some, in others words the extreme case, people who have student loans that are utterly crippling. It’s probably those people who are speaking the loudest for student loan forgiveness.
Yes, this happened with Lawyers a few years back. Pay was so good for so long that many went into the field. Then there was a glut of them and the pay dropped for many (the top ones were still compensated well).
I don’t think because you can say that about either (trade or college jobs) that it makes the argument good for what it is used for (attempt to lower other people’s empathy for those with college debt), because what they are proposing wouldn’t work. The market needs multiple levels of skill in the workforce.
Do you feel empathy for those who borrow tons of money on margin and then see it not work out the way they expected?
Yes. It would seem cold to not have empathy for others experiencing unfortunate events.
Would you agree with a proposal that people should get up to 50k of their debt due to misplaced financial investments forgiven?
The problem is the difference between what i think “proper planning and time” entails, and what other people think “proper planning and time” entails. Many, many people have been paying the minimum payment for a decade+ because they want to live well and not scrimp and save as young adults. Now when they have reached an age and decided to be responsible its not socially acceptable to be living with multiple roommates, eating ramen, wearing cheap clothes, driving a beater car, etc. The days when it was socially acceptable to look a little poorer are gone and they are now 32 years old with a kid on the way, and now have no chance to pay down that loan… because they spent the years when they should have paid it down, living well.
And then there is the argument that the folks who will benefit the most from student debt forgiveness are doctors, lawyers, and people with grad degrees who will be earning big salaries in the coming years and who can afford to pay off their loans, but now wont have to.
But isn’t that the case for everything? People have differing opinions on things.
Either way, I firmly believe that you should accept the consequences of your actions. I feel that’s the only way to get people tobe responsible for their own actions. If someone had a sizable student loan debt and didn’t plan properly to pay it off, then I honestly think that’s their responsibility.
I laid out what I personally feel are acceptable rationales for forgiving someone’s student loans in an earlier post.
As you mentioned, the people with the worst student loan debts tend to be people going for graduate degrees. It frankly bothers me that these people, whose earning potential is massive if they play their career right, will benefit while the less well off, but very responsible, person who slaved their young adulthood away to pay off a large college debt sees no benefits whatsoever.
That’s why I support broader aid programs like a UBI or something that is targeted to people. Something that takes their yearly income into account to judge whether they need benefits. Research shows that there are many people with high income who have massive debt or are living paycheck to paycheck because they’re living at the limit of their means. I have ZERO sympathy for these people.
I didn’t support it the last time the government did it with far more money for all the big banks.
I don’t think that comparing the ethics of a government paying off a portion of student debt is comparable to paying off debt from investing on a margin. There is an inherent issue with the latter from an economic incentives standpoint. Wouldn’t everyone invest using margins if they can’t lose money?
The government bailing out the banks who did this sent the message that they (banks) can invest over leveraged without risk. I believe the market should be fair, and when they did this it created some investors (big banks) that have an inherently different risk profile than other investors (guys like us). That isn’t fair.