Yes, totally agree. We must calculate our risks and take them responsibly. But also 1500 in person x will have very different consequences than 1500 in person y
They definitely metabolize differently but TT of 1500 is 1500 whether taken endogenously or natural. Looking for other underlying issues is a waste of time? So nothing else matters. Just take more and more test and get your levels higher and higher until you feel better. Nutrition, sleep, exercise, diet, stress are all irrelevant? No wonder you are changing protocols every 6 weeks and still not optimized 10 months later.
Of course it matters bro, but I wont look for issues where there arent. Ive checked what I need to check long before I started trt.
Ao yes when you need higher levels you just need higher levels.
As much as testosterone wont fix all issues in all men, denying that some need higher doses is equally wrong.
And no 1500 exogenously cannot be comoared to 1500 endogenously. Even 1500 from one ester will have different action than 1500 from another ester, from cream or etc
You guys are all being completely oblivious to androgen resistance. Youâre talking from personal experience where you feel plenty fine at a given level so nobody else should ever require more than that.
Itâs hogwash.
Every time one of them does youâre under the impression theyâre only doing it for âthe gainzâ
I know men who are borderline suicidal if their total gets under 1800. They have ample levels of testosterone but it has virtually no effect in their body.
You will be seeing this become more and more prevalent, I assure you, so get up to speed on these things instead of making it sound like dose is relevant to TRT.
For many men itâs not replacement. They replace their levels to a physiological range and feel like death. The clinical range needs to be thrown out the window.
1 Like
Weâll just have to disagree that 1500 doesnât equal 1500.
1 Like
I dont know how you have the patience to explain same things over and over again without making any gains from that 
Itâs doesnât. Heâs right. You cannot compare endogenous and exogenous at the same level.
Who said I have patience? If I can help ONE MAN today Iâll have done my job⊠Even though I out a few extra holes in the wall on my officeâŠ
2 Likes
Yes and no⊠There are also many people that use that logic to justify running super high levels. Like the 1 in 20,000 analogy you mentioned for AI (BTW⊠I believe it is much lower) this is the rare case.
Thats why everything should be considered in a context by a doctor or a person who really understands this. There are doctors who prescribe higher levels and they dont do it for patientâs muscle gain
If the guy is really doing it for gains, then fine.
I know a 62 year old man who doesnât feel anything from trt until his total gets over 2500. I kid you not.
My script of 250 a week gets my total to 1000. Big deal. I need 300 to be symptom free. At 250 I get sluggish, ED off and on, and sleep is crap. At 300 everything is resolved. I donât car about replacing anything. I just want to feel normal.
I see these kinds of cases all day long.
PAIS is quite rare, otherwise androgen resistance generally develops in response to prolonged abuse regarding very high dosages. In which case yes, at times a former bodybuilder may require a higher dosage to feel adequate⊠Or he could abstain for a while (feeling like absolute garbage) and subsequently lower the dose.
Itâs like a prior heroin addict substituting with opiate replacement therapy to feel normal. Receptor down regulation is at play here, no opiate naive individual is going to require a fat dose of methadone to feel normal.
I donât see anything particularly terrifying about a testosterone level of 1400ng/dl, but I donât think itâs âTRTâ either. Within a medical context, testosterone replacement refers to the physiologic replacement of testosterone.
5 Likes
I have been following bodybuilding, powerlifting, strongman for 35 years. I love that shit. Those guys are all extreme and use extreme doses. I have no problem with that. They are adults. Take all you want and deal with the consequences. You can also not deny that some, a large portion from what I can see take doses under the premise of TRT that are clearly not TRT. We live in a society where instant gratification is the norm with social media. Some want instant gratification and donât feel ânormalâ if they are not jacked. If they just get their life in order and realize what is important maybe they wonât need as much. If being ripped and jacked so you can post half naked pics of yourself on a TRT forum for other guys to comment on is ânormalâ I am fine being abnormal.
1 Like
Iâm not as sure about this. Priorities differ from person to person, who am I to dictate what should or shouldnât be important within your life. Benefit/risk assessment is individualistic, and some are willing to tolerate more risk than others. Iâve said this before and Iâll say it again. If society can handle people eating themselves to death, smoking cigarettes, drinking to excess and shelling out enormous amounts of money for at times risky plastic surgery⊠we can handle people taking gear to look better.
There tends to be engrained societal stigma surrounding highly politicised, controversial topics. Anabolic steroids are no exception to this rule. Yet taking stigmatisation aside, I donât see any reason as to why anabolic steroids (within reason) are particularly worse than many legal/normalised commodities/vices.
If being jacked is a priority to you, then all the more power to you. I donât like it however when people deny the obvious risks associated with megadosing AAS. If youâre going to use anabolic steroids, be realistic about the potential long term ramifications, do your research and make sure youâve got physician assisted monitoring.
3 Likes
Sounds like we pretty much agree.
If youâre making excuses to get more because you want to make more gains, thatâs not TRT.
If you just want to feel normal and need an extremely high dose to accomplish this due to androgen resistance, I donât care how much you need to take. Take it. Most men just want to feel normal. Iâd much rather they do that then hop on 8 different SSRI, Viagra, pain killers, opioids etc etc
Iâd take my chances with higher levels of T over all that bullshit 10 times out of 10.
1 Like
This is false. Youâre a smart guy, you know your shit, but if you would have seen the sheer number of cases I have you would be singing a different tune right now, and I assure you things are only going to get worse.
Are we referring to PAIS? I wouldnât know exactly how common it is, but itâs not the avg dude on TRT. Iâve talked with doctors who treat people with PAIS, they actually do require very high dosages to feel normal (talking about TT of 2500ng/dl+)
Iâd rather live to 75 feeling great than live to 85 feeling like shit.
This isnât a goal of longetivity. This is a goal of quality of life. Youâre still a teen so you arenât feeling the signs of aging yet. Wait and see.
Being optimized is being symptom free. Your number is meaningless to me if youâre optimized and symptom free.
2 Likes
Debatable, I have chronic, at times debilitating pain. I donât feel comfortable talking about my entire medical history on here. But typically my quality of life is rather poor. Itâs unfortunate, but it is what it is. I try my best to make the best of the cards Iâve been dealt.
Totally agree, but that isnât necessarily a doctors job. A doctor takes the Hippocratic oath, taking ten years off youâre life, whilst perhaps not particularly significant, isnât indicative of doing no harm. One could argue a doctor could lose his license for such conduct.