[quote]CLINK wrote:
"… paint a picture … "
“… build a house …”
First person to name the source wins 100 internet points.[/quote]
Fight Club.
Where do I claim my internetz?
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
I’ll be the naysayer in this thread and say that half of these abilities are almost useless, and the time used in learning some of these activities can be better spent specializing in your field. [/quote]
Agreed on the first part, but I can see over a dozen here that one could passably execute after a long weekend’s worth of practice, so if someone is nervous about their man card being revoked, they needn’t worry.[/quote]
How so Lanky? Even ignoring the personal satisfaction/character building angle and looking at pure practicality. It has value (both financial and personal) for anyone not to have to call out a plumber every time their kid drops an earring down the sink. Even if you bang nails for a living it’s useful to be able to read a simple legal document and if you write legal documents for a living, it’s still nice if you can bang a nail or two if need be.
I use the Boy Scout/MacGyver stuff on a regular basis, for work sure, but also to help a buddy tie down a load (so it stays put), tie up a boat (also so it stays put), fix my kid’s necklace, get a safe up 2 flights of stairs and onto a flat deck and any number of other things.
How is it useless be able to pilot a few different types of vehicle and do some basic trouble shooting if one craps out on you at the side of the road (and keep warm for the night if it craps out at the side of the road somewhere cold and outside cell range and you can’t get it running)? If your GPS craps out it becomes very useful indeed to be able to read map.
I’m as blue collar a dude as ever there was, but I aspire to be otherwise, so knowing how to dress and conduct myself in polite company is as valuable to me as being able to hold my own in rough company, perhaps more so. I need to be able to run a chainsaw, but it helps that I know how to run a meeting.
If you date a girl of European extraction and you reach the dinner-with-her-parents phase, it pays dividends if you can use a knife and fork properly and place them on your plate correctly when you finish.
I also contend that being able to take a kid fishing with a decent chance of catching something and knowing what to do with it if and when you do is eminently worthwhile for anyone and there is perhaps “…nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” Kenneth Grahame.
As anonym points out, much of this need not be excessively esoteric, onerous or time consuming, and again, we’re talking about competence, not mastery.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Skills are important. 20 - 30 years ago, it used to be taken for granted that a “man” would know how to fix things. I will say that down south, men still know how to fix things, up north and in urban/suburban (YUPPIE) areas, not so much.
I came across that quote many years ago, while I was in prison (I worked in the library). In the past 20 years, I’ve always had a “curriculum” of interests that I pursue. I organize it every New Years as part of my goal setting and resolutions. I set aside X hours per week for each subject. The building and construction skills are easy for me - I’m a commercial electrician by trade and I’m confident that I can build just about anything. Earlier on I mastered areas of Koryu martial arts. Now I don’t really focus on that as much as I do sailing. I played rugby for ten years, spent six years working in mortgage banking and developed a context for and an understanding of finance and business. I’ve spent time and energy on a variety of things that I find useful. I’ve made investments of time and money that were genius and investments that were risky and stupid and ultimately failed. I’ve studied many of the great books as well as modern and classical literature. I put a lot of time and energy into figuring out the fairer sex and how we relate (or more often than not, FAIL to relate) to them.
One of my hobbies is being a “prepper”. LOTS of low tech skill sets to develop in that area.
But it all boils down to one thing: being responsible. As in, “having the ability to respond”… To life. Life is an unforgiving BITCH. She never let’s you rest and just when you think you have it all figured out, she’ll rip the carpet out from under you. Being able to quickly adapt to whatever she throws at you will set you apart from other men, raise your status and survival value. It comes down to problem solving. My brain automatically comes up with angles and possibilities to just about ANYTHING I encounter as I move through my day. I’ve had to adapt and overcome adversity my whole life. I think that’s the key to being useful. Just seeing the situation you are in and realizing it’s potential - both positive and negative - and taking the proper course of action.
We live in a civilization, and we fool ourselves into thinking we are safe. We make assumptions, take liberties and get careless. But I will bet that each and every one of you will find yourself on potentially deadly ground at least several times per week. Every time you get into a car, for instance… Or walk into a bar… There are situations that can go from zero to dead in seconds. Learning how to spot them and avoid them is the most valuable skill, IMHO. [/quote]
I’d hoped you’d find your way over here, since you got this ball rolling.
Great post.
[quote]Captnoblivious wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
[quote]twojarslave wrote:
Tie effective knots[/quote]
I can tie a few effective knots–enough to get by in life–but I’m always shamed when I’m around my dad, who was both a recreational sailor and a Bosen’s Mate in the coast guard. Everything he ties to a trailer always stays there, never shifts, and all the knots simply disappear when he pulls on one end.
You are not a real man unless you can tie a bowline knot.
Required knots IMHO:
Half Hitch
Clove Hitch
Square Knot
Sheet Bend
Bowline Variations
Figure “8” Family
Alpine Butterfly
Prusik Knot
Timber Hitch
Poor man’s come along/Z drag*
*Not really a knot per se, but a simple mechanical advantage rope configuration. A minimalist version can be improvised from a single continuous length of decent hauling line if need be, but ideally you’d have a hauling line, an anchor line a few lengths of prusik line and 2 or more carabiners and pulleys. A bit complex at first, but extremely handy once you’ve got it down.
Edit: We take knots very seriously in my profession and one maxim that bears remembering is that a knot is never almost right. It is either exactly right or disastrously wrong.[/quote]
Great list.
I’ve never liked the alpine butterfly compared to a figure 8 on a bite.
[/quote]
Yep, 8 on a bight will get it done and is probably actually better for most folks’ needs, but I find the butterfly breaks more easily if it’s been loaded heavily. It’s prettier too.
This all sounds dangerously like crossfit to me…
[quote]batman730 wrote:
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
�?�¢?? Robert A. Heinlein
AC posted this quote in a thread over in PWI. I liked it and thought it may warrant a discussion of its own and perhaps a few respectful additions.
I’m generally opposed to arbitrary lists of shoulds, but what do folks think of as required skills for today’s “competent man” (or competent person if you prefer)? I mean legitimate skills that anyone would benefit from and which a person of sound mind, able body and modest means could reasonably expect to acquire in the course of his life.
I’ll start (in no particular order).
Tie a tie, speak a second language, catch/clean a fish, write a formal letter, sharpen a knife, play poker, play chess, fell a tree, tell a joke, shoot straight, drive stick, change your oil, change a tire, ride a motorcycle, saddle/ride a horse, throw a punch, read a map, use a compass, make a fire, make amends, play an instrument, resolve a dispute, mend a button, last the night outdoors in winter, hand write legibly, hold your liquor, hold your tongue, speak your mind, fix a toilet flapper, have a civil debate, touch type, shine shoes, prepare personal income tax to name a few…
…and be able to do so without an internet connection.
I have deliberately omitted physical feats.
[/quote]
Robert Heinlein is obviously an idiot as is anyone who think “program a computer”(or most of those other tasks) is a single specialty/task. you could spend your whole life in software development and be made completely obsolete in 5 years by a freshman in college.
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
This all sounds dangerously like crossfit to me…[/quote]
Says the gentleman whose avatar is a pic of someone (presumably himself) apparently back squatting a dog, an image that would look very much at home on the Crossfit homepage 
[quote]TooHuman wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
�??�??�?�¢?? Robert A. Heinlein
AC posted this quote in a thread over in PWI. I liked it and thought it may warrant a discussion of its own and perhaps a few respectful additions.
I’m generally opposed to arbitrary lists of shoulds, but what do folks think of as required skills for today’s “competent man” (or competent person if you prefer)? I mean legitimate skills that anyone would benefit from and which a person of sound mind, able body and modest means could reasonably expect to acquire in the course of his life.
I’ll start (in no particular order).
Tie a tie, speak a second language, catch/clean a fish, write a formal letter, sharpen a knife, play poker, play chess, fell a tree, tell a joke, shoot straight, drive stick, change your oil, change a tire, ride a motorcycle, saddle/ride a horse, throw a punch, read a map, use a compass, make a fire, make amends, play an instrument, resolve a dispute, mend a button, last the night outdoors in winter, hand write legibly, hold your liquor, hold your tongue, speak your mind, fix a toilet flapper, have a civil debate, touch type, shine shoes, prepare personal income tax to name a few…
…and be able to do so without an internet connection.
I have deliberately omitted physical feats.
[/quote]
Robert Heinlein is obviously an idiot as is anyone who think “program a computer”(or most of those other tasks) is a single specialty/task. you could spend your whole life in software development and be made completely obsolete in 5 years by a freshman in college.[/quote]
I think you may be missing the point. Also, a google search of the man’s life and accomplishments should make it fairly evident that whatever else he may have been, he was no idiot. Which is again beside the point.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Jack of all trades; master of none.[/quote]
I don’t know, realize that it may seem that way at first glance. I would personally hesitate to claim “mastery” in any area, regardless of my proficiency. Obviously no normal person could aspire to expertise in all areas.
However what’s to say that a person can’t have intimate knowledge in one or two areas (say, their chosen profession and one or two most of their passionate extracurriculars) and basic proficiency in a broad range of worthwhile pursuits? Many of these pursuits alone could take a lifetime of study to master, but how long to become competent enough for them to be useful and/or enjoyable?
Why couldn’t a person be say, a top tier forensic accountant and avid recreational athlete but still be able to perform a range of basic manual labour and/or maintenance tasks, be conversant about an range of topics, have read a few of the great books, possess some basic marksmanship, bushcraft, self protection skills and social graces? Is it so far fetched? Would it diminish his mastery of his chosen field? I think not. It would require effort, will, passion, and disciplined use of time, attention and resources but it is not so unrealistic.
You don’t really need to be an expert to be able to solve many common problems and enjoy a little self reliance. You don’t need to be an electrician to install a light fixture in your house, a plumber to fix your leaky faucet, a carpenter to bang together serviceable garden shed, an IT guy to make a spreadsheet, or a mechanic to change a tire or do some basic troubleshooting.
Similarly, You don’t need to be elite to enjoy a sport. If you don’t need to be elite, you can play more than one. Since most of will never be truly elite, this strikes me as good news.
It seems to me that we are moving in a direction of hyper-specialization where we know everything about one thing and next to nothing (or are google smart at best) about everything else. I’m not sure that this is an improvement. [/quote]
Yep. I was just pointing out that specialisation has its good points too.
ALOT of the things listed are useless and plain stupid imho (sorry). How is holding your liquor a required skill for today’s “competent man”?
[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:
ALOT of the things listed are useless and plain stupid imho (sorry). How is holding your liquor a required skill for today’s “competent man”?
[/quote]
I took a little poetic license with that (and a few other items). I meant being able to have a few or even more than a few and still conduct yourself reasonably. Having a few liquor enhanced laughs at a company function is one thing. Getting blackout drunk, picking fights and waking up with no shoes is another.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
Jack of all trades; master of none.[/quote]
I don’t know, realize that it may seem that way at first glance. I would personally hesitate to claim “mastery” in any area, regardless of my proficiency. Obviously no normal person could aspire to expertise in all areas.
However what’s to say that a person can’t have intimate knowledge in one or two areas (say, their chosen profession and one or two most of their passionate extracurriculars) and basic proficiency in a broad range of worthwhile pursuits? Many of these pursuits alone could take a lifetime of study to master, but how long to become competent enough for them to be useful and/or enjoyable?
Why couldn’t a person be say, a top tier forensic accountant and avid recreational athlete but still be able to perform a range of basic manual labour and/or maintenance tasks, be conversant about an range of topics, have read a few of the great books, possess some basic marksmanship, bushcraft, self protection skills and social graces? Is it so far fetched? Would it diminish his mastery of his chosen field? I think not. It would require effort, will, passion, and disciplined use of time, attention and resources but it is not so unrealistic.
You don’t really need to be an expert to be able to solve many common problems and enjoy a little self reliance. You don’t need to be an electrician to install a light fixture in your house, a plumber to fix your leaky faucet, a carpenter to bang together serviceable garden shed, an IT guy to make a spreadsheet, or a mechanic to change a tire or do some basic troubleshooting.
Similarly, You don’t need to be elite to enjoy a sport. If you don’t need to be elite, you can play more than one. Since most of will never be truly elite, this strikes me as good news.
It seems to me that we are moving in a direction of hyper-specialization where we know everything about one thing and next to nothing (or are google smart at best) about everything else. I’m not sure that this is an improvement. [/quote]
Yep. I was just pointing out that specialisation has its good points too.[/quote]
Agreed.
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
This all sounds dangerously like crossfit to me…[/quote]
Says the gentleman whose avatar is a pic of someone (presumably himself) apparently back squatting a dog, an image that would look very much at home on the Crossfit homepage
[/quote]
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
I’ll be the naysayer in this thread and say that half of these abilities are almost useless, and the time used in learning some of these activities can be better spent specializing in your field. [/quote]
Agreed on the first part, but I can see over a dozen here that one could passably execute after a long weekend’s worth of practice, so if someone is nervous about their man card being revoked, they needn’t worry.[/quote]
How so Lanky? Even ignoring the personal satisfaction/character building angle and looking at pure practicality. It has value (both financial and personal) for anyone not to have to call out a plumber every time their kid drops an earring down the sink. Even if you bang nails for a living it’s useful to be able to read a simple legal document and if you write legal documents for a living, it’s still nice if you can bang a nail or two if need be.
I use the Boy Scout/MacGyver stuff on a regular basis, for work sure, but also to help a buddy tie down a load (so it stays put), tie up a boat (also so it stays put), fix my kid’s necklace, get a safe up 2 flights of stairs and onto a flat deck and any number of other things.
How is it useless be able to pilot a few different types of vehicle and do some basic trouble shooting if one craps out on you at the side of the road (and keep warm for the night if it craps out at the side of the road somewhere cold and outside cell range and you can’t get it running)? If your GPS craps out it becomes very useful indeed to be able to read map.
I’m as blue collar a dude as ever there was, but I aspire to be otherwise, so knowing how to dress and conduct myself in polite company is as valuable to me as being able to hold my own in rough company, perhaps more so. I need to be able to run a chainsaw, but it helps that I know how to run a meeting.
If you date a girl of European extraction and you reach the dinner-with-her-parents phase, it pays dividends if you can use a knife and fork properly and place them on your plate correctly when you finish.
I also contend that being able to take a kid fishing with a decent chance of catching something and knowing what to do with it if and when you do is eminently worthwhile for anyone and there is perhaps “…nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” Kenneth Grahame.
As anonym points out, much of this need not be excessively esoteric, onerous or time consuming, and again, we’re talking about competence, not mastery. [/quote]
I have no problem with this if you simply enjoy learning new things, but you can’t look at the situations you’ve been in and assume they’re applicable to everyone’s life. I mean, one of your examples was the possibility of dating a european girl.
The point is, most people get by just fine without knowing how to tie all those proper knots or without speaking a 2nd language. Sure, that stuff may be useful in certain situations. But acting like any guy should know it or it’s a sure fire thing that all guys will one day be in a position where they have to know it is a little presumptuous. I’d say most people get by just fine without knowing a lot of those things. Others are a bit more basic and I’d say most people know them.
Lanky, Of course anyone can “get by” with just a skill or two that puts food on their table. But is that a life worth living? I personally find a broad range of experiences to add depth and flavor to my life. It makes me a more interesting person and gives me the ability to attract more interesting people into my life… It’s a feed-forward loop at that point.
This isn’t about “what is the basic skills one needs to survive”, but more about, "what skills and knowledge can I apply to make myself a “better person”?
My .02
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]MaazerSmiit wrote:
This all sounds dangerously like crossfit to me…[/quote]
Says the gentleman whose avatar is a pic of someone (presumably himself) apparently back squatting a dog, an image that would look very much at home on the Crossfit homepage
[/quote]
:)[/quote]
It’s rare when something can make me cringe, smh, and LMFAO all at once.
Well played.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
[quote]batman730 wrote:
[quote]anonym wrote:
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
I’ll be the naysayer in this thread and say that half of these abilities are almost useless, and the time used in learning some of these activities can be better spent specializing in your field. [/quote]
Agreed on the first part, but I can see over a dozen here that one could passably execute after a long weekend’s worth of practice, so if someone is nervous about their man card being revoked, they needn’t worry.[/quote]
How so Lanky? Even ignoring the personal satisfaction/character building angle and looking at pure practicality. It has value (both financial and personal) for anyone not to have to call out a plumber every time their kid drops an earring down the sink. Even if you bang nails for a living it’s useful to be able to read a simple legal document and if you write legal documents for a living, it’s still nice if you can bang a nail or two if need be.
I use the Boy Scout/MacGyver stuff on a regular basis, for work sure, but also to help a buddy tie down a load (so it stays put), tie up a boat (also so it stays put), fix my kid’s necklace, get a safe up 2 flights of stairs and onto a flat deck and any number of other things.
How is it useless be able to pilot a few different types of vehicle and do some basic trouble shooting if one craps out on you at the side of the road (and keep warm for the night if it craps out at the side of the road somewhere cold and outside cell range and you can’t get it running)? If your GPS craps out it becomes very useful indeed to be able to read map.
I’m as blue collar a dude as ever there was, but I aspire to be otherwise, so knowing how to dress and conduct myself in polite company is as valuable to me as being able to hold my own in rough company, perhaps more so. I need to be able to run a chainsaw, but it helps that I know how to run a meeting.
If you date a girl of European extraction and you reach the dinner-with-her-parents phase, it pays dividends if you can use a knife and fork properly and place them on your plate correctly when you finish.
I also contend that being able to take a kid fishing with a decent chance of catching something and knowing what to do with it if and when you do is eminently worthwhile for anyone and there is perhaps “…nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” Kenneth Grahame.
As anonym points out, much of this need not be excessively esoteric, onerous or time consuming, and again, we’re talking about competence, not mastery. [/quote]
I have no problem with this if you simply enjoy learning new things, but you can’t look at the situations you’ve been in and assume they’re applicable to everyone’s life. I mean, one of your examples was the possibility of dating a european girl.
The point is, most people get by just fine without knowing how to tie all those proper knots or without speaking a 2nd language. Sure, that stuff may be useful in certain situations. But acting like any guy should know it or it’s a sure fire thing that all guys will one day be in a position where they have to know it is a little presumptuous. I’d say most people get by just fine without knowing a lot of those things. Others are a bit more basic and I’d say most people know them. [/quote]
Absolutely. I had no intention of setting down some arbitrary list of skills required of any guy seeking to call themselves a “real man”.
I was using “competent man” in the literary sense i.e. character type who appears in a story with the inexplicable ability to perform a seemingly impossibly broad range of tasks, well, competently, and thus escape/prevail in an equally broad range of seemingly improbable scenarios. Examples include: 007, Indiana Jones, Zorro, Jason Bourne, a number of Heinlein’s heroes (hence the reference), Captain Kirk and, yep, Batman.
It is, in a sense, the most plausible of super powers because it is driven not by anything superhuman/supernatural, but by intellect, imagination, courage and will. It’s something that a flesh and blood human could reasonably aspire to. In no way did I mean to imply that anyone incapable of these skills was in incompetent.
In a slightly less action hero sense, I was also referring to the old idea of striving to be something of a renaissance man, a well rounded man for all seasons type. A broad base of knowledge and skill and a few areas of genuine expertise packaged with social graces and an appreciation for the arts and sciences alike makes for a more interesting and fulfilling life, IMHO.
It’s not unlike lifting. Do you need a 500lb DL to get by in life? Is it “expected” of any man worth his salt? Probably not. Could you go your whole life without ever needing to? Very likely, in fact almost certainly. Does needlessly pursuing one make things more interesting? For many of us here, yes.
I find that living solely within the bounds of what is necessary for me to survive, fulfill my roll in society and achieve a modicum of material success and generally “get by”, while admirable, lacks a certain depth, flavour and romance.
It’s a big world and we have very little time here, Momento Mori and all. Even in the safe and sterile 21st century the potential for real adventure abounds, and preparing for adventure is an adventure all its own. Even if we don’t see it, you really can go from “zero to dead” in no time flat on any given day, and I am profoundly grateful for that fact. I’m not sure if I’d want to get out of bed each day otherwise. We just need exercise a little awareness, ambition and imagination to see it.
That was really what I was driving at.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Lanky, Of course anyone can “get by” with just a skill or two that puts food on their table. But is that a life worth living? I personally find a broad range of experiences to add depth and flavor to my life. It makes me a more interesting person and gives me the ability to attract more interesting people into my life… It’s a feed-forward loop at that point.
This isn’t about “what is the basic skills one needs to survive”, but more about, "what skills and knowledge can I apply to make myself a “better person”?
My .02[/quote]
But, having most if not all of the skills listed does not translate to experiences. As stated earlier most of the skills can be learned in a couple of free weekends, then what?
Now, if we are talking about being interesting/attracting people than I agree experiences can do that and are fun. I would rather say I went sky diving or climbed Kilimanjaro than, I know how to tie dozens of knots.
[quote]angry chicken wrote:
Lanky, Of course anyone can “get by” with just a skill or two that puts food on their table. But is that a life worth living? I personally find a broad range of experiences to add depth and flavor to my life. It makes me a more interesting person and gives me the ability to attract more interesting people into my life… It’s a feed-forward loop at that point.
This isn’t about “what is the basic skills one needs to survive”, but more about, "what skills and knowledge can I apply to make myself a “better person”?
My .02[/quote]
Yep.