[quote]orion wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Sorry, don’t get this last one. Who or what is a grown-up version of Santa Claus?
The invisible man in the sky that knows if you have been naughty or nice?[/quote]
That you don’t accept God is your “choice.”
It is my choice to embrace God and accept his son Jesus Christ who died for my sins.
Have a good day.
Zeb
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
Nobody advocates abortion, we advocate choice.
…
Choice for what? Dinner?
This debate is silly.
While some people want to eliminate all abortions ever for whatever reason, most people do not.
Very few people are for abortions. Just the docs that get paid and the radicals.
Most people want to minimize abortion and eliminate the convenience ones.
Unfortunately when proposals are made to do this they are shouted down by a very vocal minority that scream about womens rights and choice. Too many people are taken in by this bullshit.
In my opinion South Dakota took it too far by not providing exceptions for rape, etc.
I think this is a bad law but it has the right intentions.
We must work together to find common ground to minimize the murder of innocents. Politicians aren’t going to do it unless we make them. They are happy to pick a side, get the votes and change nothing.
We need more/better parental notifications/consent laws. If the parent is abusive they should lose their rights.
We need to make it a federal crime to bring an underage girl across state lines for the purpose of abortion to get around some states notification/consent laws.
We need to fix our adoption/foster care system.
There is little incentive to place kids into adoption. Federal money is lost when this is done. Federal money keeps flowing when kids bounce from foster care to foster care or live in orphanages and other institutions.
I know multiple white people that had to go out of country to adopt from Central America, Romania, China etc.
They all tried to adopt black babies and it was shot down. This is bullshit but it is happening.[/quote]
See, I know that what you want won?t work, because I am a cynical bastard, i.e. I know my fellow human beings…
If you have a rape clause in an abortion law, guess what is going to happen? They will all say they have been raped…
Let us take a look into that box and see what might be in it:
Mandatory lie-detector tests before an abortion?
Teenage boys that face rape charges because teenage girls scared of a pregnancy will suddenly KNOW she said no repeatedly even though she probably didn?t?
If a 15 year old girl has sex with a 25 year old man that is considered a form of rape in the US, right? Is this kind of “rape” included or should it not be?
What if a female school teacher “rapes” a 14 year old boy and gets pregnant herself? See, now she is the “aggressor”, the criminal, and her unborn child is still the consequence of a rape.
And finally to the “millions of babies are murdered…”. There is no consensus that those human cells are “babys”. If I was convinced that they were, I?d be pro -life.
However, you cannot assume that everybody sees it your way and you can also not be that arrogant to believe that there is no possibility that you might be wrong.
If you want laws passed that force other people to live by your rules I?d say you should be very sure that you are right, especially with a criminal law system like in the US.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
orion wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Sorry, don’t get this last one. Who or what is a grown-up version of Santa Claus?
The invisible man in the sky that knows if you have been naughty or nice?
That you don’t accept God is your “choice.”
It is my choice to embrace God and accept his son Jesus Christ who died for my sins.
Have a good day.
Zeb
[/quote]
That is perfectly ok, he asked.
My point was that accepting Jesus as your saviour seems to be a pretty life-altering experience to me and the evidence that Jesus was the son of God is anecdotal at best.
I would not want someone that makes far reaching decisions based on such evidence make decisions for me and I think that this is understandable.
[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…
Nobody advocates abortion, we advocate choice.
…
Choice for what? Dinner?
This debate is silly.
While some people want to eliminate all abortions ever for whatever reason, most people do not.
Very few people are for abortions. Just the docs that get paid and the radicals.
Most people want to minimize abortion and eliminate the convenience ones.
Unfortunately when proposals are made to do this they are shouted down by a very vocal minority that scream about womens rights and choice. Too many people are taken in by this bullshit.
In my opinion South Dakota took it too far by not providing exceptions for rape, etc.
I think this is a bad law but it has the right intentions.
We must work together to find common ground to minimize the murder of innocents. Politicians aren’t going to do it unless we make them. They are happy to pick a side, get the votes and change nothing.
We need more/better parental notifications/consent laws. If the parent is abusive they should lose their rights.
We need to make it a federal crime to bring an underage girl across state lines for the purpose of abortion to get around some states notification/consent laws.
We need to fix our adoption/foster care system.
There is little incentive to place kids into adoption. Federal money is lost when this is done. Federal money keeps flowing when kids bounce from foster care to foster care or live in orphanages and other institutions.
I know multiple white people that had to go out of country to adopt from Central America, Romania, China etc.
They all tried to adopt black babies and it was shot down. This is bullshit but it is happening.
See, I know that what you want won?t work, because I am a cynical bastard, i.e. I know my fellow human beings…
If you have a rape clause in an abortion law, guess what is going to happen? They will all say they have been raped…
Let us take a look into that box and see what might be in it:
Mandatory lie-detector tests before an abortion?
Teenage boys that face rape charges because teenage girls scared of a pregnancy will suddenly KNOW she said no repeatedly even though she probably didn?t?
If a 15 year old girl has sex with a 25 year old man that is considered a form of rape in the US, right? Is this kind of “rape” included or should it not be?
What if a female school teacher “rapes” a 14 year old boy and gets pregnant herself? See, now she is the “aggressor”, the criminal, and her unborn child is still the consequence of a rape.
And finally to the “millions of babies are murdered…”. There is no consensus that those human cells are “babys”. If I was convinced that they were, I?d be pro -life.
However, you cannot assume that everybody sees it your way and you can also not be that arrogant to believe that there is no possibility that you might be wrong.
If you want laws passed that force other people to live by your rules I?d say you should be very sure that you are right, especially with a criminal law system like in the US.[/quote]
False rape charges are pretty serious. While I am sure a small amount of women would make the charge I am also sure most women would not do it just to have an abortion.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
False rape charges are pretty serious. While I am sure a small amount of women would make the charge I am also sure most women would not do it just to have an abortion.
[/quote]
Really?
You know what happens again and again, at least in Germany and Austria?
Women that say the father of their children raped or at least molested them (the children) to use it in the divorce…
Women coming forward in the US claiming that they have been harassed sexually because of stupid pc laws and punitive damages, I know that is unheard of…
Trust me, if you build it, they will come, especially if in this case they will feel it is no big deal to lie to the authorities.
I?d have to agree with them…
In more liberal cities they will not want to know THAT hard if she really was raped or not…
[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
False rape charges are pretty serious. While I am sure a small amount of women would make the charge I am also sure most women would not do it just to have an abortion.
Really?
You know what happens again and again, at least in Germany and Austria?
Women that say the father of their children raped or at least molested them (the children) to use it in the divorce…
Women coming forward in the US claiming that they have been harassed sexually because of stupid pc laws and punitive damages, I know that is unheard of…
Trust me, if you build it, they will come, especially if in this case they will feel it is no big deal to lie to the authorities.
I?d have to agree with them…
In more liberal cities they will not want to know THAT hard if she really was raped or not…
[/quote]
Really. Most women do not file false rape charges, just the psychos.
I am aware of false charges, it happened to one of my friends.
Psychos will be psychos. To fail to save the lives of thousands or more babies because you are afraid a few psychos will file false rape charges is a poor excuse.
[quote]
ZEB wrote:
I think I understand where you are coming from. And I’ve heard that before. If you are really concerned about over population you can do something about it. Begin by eliminating yourself!
Ahh…not something that you would consider huh?
It’s good that you get to decide. Bad that the 50 million killed never got a “CHOICE.” [/quote]
that portion of the post was a joke… I figured the reference to 50 million people training chest on Mondays would have been a tip off. In the future Ill make sure I use appropriate [joke][/joke] tags so as to avoid confusion. and for the record I do not believe in abortion as a form of population control.
[joke] far better would it be to take out all the conservative christians… Its a win / win for everyone. They get to chill in heaven with their god on fluffy white clouds playing harp and talking about the good 'ol days of the Crusades. and I get to find an open bench on Mondays… and… and… here’s the kicker… fewer curls in the squat rack
[/joke]
now that’s just silly…of course they would…
hey no fair… using logic in an abortion debate… the balls on you… someone brought a gun to the knife fight
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Really. Most women do not file false rape charges, just the psychos.
I am aware of false charges, it happened to one of my friends.
Psychos will be psychos. To fail to save the lives of thousands or more babies because you are afraid a few psychos will file false rape charges is a poor excuse.[/quote]
They do not even have to file charges, and if they do they could say they do not know who did it!
I think the Roe vs Wade woman did the same!
What do you do then?
How do you find out if a woman was really raped or just says so?
What if in more liberal areas the authorities themselves will not really want to know if there was a rape or not?
My problem is that people that have no idea how laws are made or how they are implemented in real life thend to think that once they have their laws passed its over when in reality that is only they beginning and people automatically find ways to work around them.
Your idea SOUNDS like its a reasonable compromise, in reality little would change.
[quote]orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
orion wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Sorry, don’t get this last one. Who or what is a grown-up version of Santa Claus?
The invisible man in the sky that knows if you have been naughty or nice?
That you don’t accept God is your “choice.”
It is my choice to embrace God and accept his son Jesus Christ who died for my sins.
Have a good day.
Zeb
That is perfectly ok, he asked.
My point was that accepting Jesus as your saviour seems to be a pretty life-altering experience to me and the evidence that Jesus was the son of God is anecdotal at best.
I would not want someone that makes far reaching decisions based on such evidence make decisions for me and I think that this is understandable.[/quote]
Your lack of value for human life is not understandable. I would never want anyone who is so callous to be making any sort of high level decisions.
I’m glad you are in Austria my friend!
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Your lack of value for human life is not understandable. I would never want anyone who is so callous to be making any sort of high level decisions.
I’m glad you are in Austria my friend!
[/quote]
Hey,
be nice to me, one day I might be your governor!
[quote]orion wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Your lack of value for human life is not understandable. I would never want anyone who is so callous to be making any sort of high level decisions.
I’m glad you are in Austria my friend!
Hey,
be nice to me, one day I might be your governor!
[/quote]
Don’t be ridiculous! No one from Austria would ever get elect…um never mind.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Really. Most women do not file false rape charges, just the psychos.
I am aware of false charges, it happened to one of my friends.
Psychos will be psychos. To fail to save the lives of thousands or more babies because you are afraid a few psychos will file false rape charges is a poor excuse.[/quote]
Also, not to deter rape charges, but if the fetus is deemed ‘alive’ and you perjur yourself to get it killed, if I’m not mistaken, you’re instantly up for second degree murder? IMO, if someone gets pregnant, waits until the reproductive cell mass is deemed ‘alive’, lies under oath about a rape, gets (or tries to get) an abortion, and gets caught lying, a healthy does of prison time is appropriate.
[quote]lucasa wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Really. Most women do not file false rape charges, just the psychos.
I am aware of false charges, it happened to one of my friends.
Psychos will be psychos. To fail to save the lives of thousands or more babies because you are afraid a few psychos will file false rape charges is a poor excuse.
Also, not to deter rape charges, but if the fetus is deemed ‘alive’ and you perjur yourself to get it killed, if I’m not mistaken, you’re instantly up for second degree murder? IMO, if someone gets pregnant, waits until the reproductive cell mass is deemed ‘alive’, lies under oath about a rape, gets (or tries to get) an abortion, and gets caught lying, a healthy does of prison time is appropriate.[/quote]
And suddenly it oh so much depends which authority decides if she lied if she says she was raped…
With all the abortions going on in the US right now that would probably be a BIG organisation…
(War on drugs? )
IF this organization will come down hard on you will depend on where you live abd then it will depend on what jury you get and if you are a Marry Poppins like 18 year white girl or a black girl that talks different than the jury is used to…
This is an issue that divides society and if around 50% of people support a secret underground counter culture it will exist…
As it was with alcohol, gambling, weed…*
You cannot legislate morality damn it, it does not work for practical reasons…
edit:* I forgot prostitution. How could I possibly do that. I want to apologize to all the working girls that squat and deadlift to rise above 500$ an hour…
You go girls!
[quote]orion wrote:
How do you find out if a woman was really raped or just says so?
[/quote]
Morning.
After.
Pill.
If you get raped, you have what, 48-72 hours to get a morning after pill? If you are in a situation where you can’t get to a hospital within that period of time, you have more problems than just rape, which will probably be indicated by other evidence. This really isn’t as big of a problem as you think it is.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
orion wrote:
How do you find out if a woman was really raped or just says so?
Morning.
After.
Pill.
If you get raped, you have what, 48-72 hours to get a morning after pill? If you are in a situation where you can’t get to a hospital within that period of time, you have more problems than just rape, which will probably be indicated by other evidence. This really isn’t as big of a problem as you think it is.[/quote]
But Nephorm,
don?t you understand that that girl was traumaticed by that horrible experience and that she needed some time to deal with the pain?
Insensitive, male, chauvinist bastard!
You rape here again by demanding she gets a mandatory morning after bill though she is so deeply wounded at that moment!
Nephorm,
you have to understand that this will be a problem because people like me in the US will make it one…
Conservatives are not the only ones who can sell cheap sound bites to idiots with the attention span of an asparagus…
Kind of edit: I did not edit “morning after bill” because of the sheer Freudian beauty of it…
[quote]orion wrote:
you have to understand that this will be a problem because people like me in the US will make it one…[/quote]
Oh, I believe that.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
orion wrote:
you have to understand that this will be a problem because people like me in the US will make it one…
Oh, I believe that.[/quote]
Do you admire us, just a little bit, for the strenght of our convictions and our will to to what is necessary?
Try to pull that off without trusting in a higher power…
[quote]orion wrote:
nephorm wrote:
orion wrote:
you have to understand that this will be a problem because people like me in the US will make it one…
Oh, I believe that.
Do you admire us, just a little bit, for the strenght of our convictions and our will to to what is necessary?
Try to pull that off without trusting in a higher power…[/quote]
Orion
Yes I actually do. Not for the reason you think. Purely for the strenght of your convictions, not the reasons why. I think you will agree that I rarely agree with yourself, Miniross, ProfX and Vroom but I am impressed by your convictions and I respect them.
I posted this topic because I found some of the current topics a little stale. This topic certainly livened the board up a bit.
I am struck by the strength of the arguments on both sides and the restraint on both sides. Sure a little bit of needling here and there but really a very spirited debate an dboth side have their points.
Personally I feel I understand the other side a little better. I always felt the pro choice side was brainwashed by propoganda. I’ve mellowed on that. Obviously you guys have strong convictions and have thought about it. Hopefully you see we do too.
It’s the same with Pro-Life. I am a pro-lifer, I could never support abortion. I have a strong conviction about it. I hope abortion goes away. I am deeply religious. That’s my thing. Hope you guys understand that. I’ll pray for your heather souls whether you like it or not
Someone mentioned being swayed by experience and emotions. I think that’s human nature. Life, to me, is something to be cherished. I make that statement after not always feeling that way. In fact, over the years I’ve taken lives, in military service. I’m not proud of that. It does change you however. Perhaps my support of pro-life is an attonement of sorts ,who knows. I guess I judge a man by how he treats those who are weaker or helpless and I know how I want to be judged.
End of rant…carry on.
Plan B is not an effective method of birth control and still allows high chance of conception.
I still don’t understand how a question of legality/morality of abortion depends on a method of conception. Could ANYONE explain? It’s either “It’s a baby since the moment of conception and it shouldn’t be killed regardless of how it was concieved” OR “it’s not a baby until it can survive outside mother’s body”.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
orion wrote:
How do you find out if a woman was really raped or just says so?
Morning.
After.
Pill.
If you get raped, you have what, 48-72 hours to get a morning after pill? If you are in a situation where you can’t get to a hospital within that period of time, you have more problems than just rape, which will probably be indicated by other evidence. This really isn’t as big of a problem as you think it is.[/quote]
[quote]orion wrote:
And suddenly it oh so much depends which authority decides if she lied if she says she was raped…[/quote]
As it does so much right now any time it boils down to ‘he said/she said’. Or for pretty much any authority in any criminal matter.
Oh my! How will we ever catch all of the babykillers? Yes, we should set up a task force to hunt them down and… Oh wait, they have to walk into a police station to file a police report to claim rape and then they have to go see a licensed medical professional to have the reproductive cell mass removed. Yeah, we’d never be able to catch 'em.
How is this at all relevant? This is an entirely different flaw in the system that applies to any crime that already occurs (I wonder what the white on black rape conviction is compared to black on white). To use it as an argument the punishment is baseless. Should we let people go just because the law can’t/aren’t always be applied evenly?
[quote]This is an issue that divides society and if around 50% of people support a secret underground counter culture it will exist…
As it was with alcohol, gambling, weed…*[/quote]
An underground counter culture that is costly, requires clean facilities, medical expertise, discrete disposal of human remains, that 50% of people support? Sure, it’s just like weed (which requires you to grow plants and light matches), gambling (okay, you have to count to do this), and alcohol (let fruit/grain rot without oxygen)…oh yeah, and prostitution.
You’re right people are always going to lie, cheat, steal, and kill each other, we should repeal the laws against that they’re clearly not working.