Murder nor theft has a moral component, it is simply action or inaction resulting from a Risk vs. Reward calculation. Not good, or evil, just risk vs reward.
A foundation of sand.
Be glad we cling to our ‘superstitions,’ and our faith. Even if we don’t don’t admit it. Some have even posited that religion is an opiate. That it simply served a purpose, if only for a time. It still does.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]groo wrote:
I’ll even go on board that its Evil.
[/quote]
But you can’t. It’s an emotional preference. It doesn’t mean any more in reality than the preference of the Man-Boy love folks. Even if a moral value such as “must continue the species” (it can’t, if faith in the supernatural is to be excluded), pedophilia would not threaten the survival of the species. The species will survive a whole lot of nastiness. Rape, pedophilia, theft, even murder.
But it’s silliness, as there is no moral virtue such as “the human species must survive” to be found. Evolution doesn’t care if we go the way of the dinosaur. We survive or don’t. If rape and murder-cannibalism are the most likely survival mechanism in a particular environment those acts go from Evil to Good? That’s a morality that doesn’t even believe in itself.
Had we never successfully had widespread change of hearts and minds, slavery wouldn’t be a moral evil? With that knowledge we need only to not fall for supernatural (god-given rights) and emotional arguments to keep a Good from becoming an Evil. Instead, we can intellectually comfort ourselves, by keeping the EVIL a Good, with the foreknowledge that are only preferences. Good and Evil is what we wish to make of it. So relax, the slave trade was/is as Good for as long as we want it to be, and we can be comforted by that.
As long as I check out after having some fun, why should I care that the species extends past my own life? Or, as to what of state their survival continues in? Greed, charity, violence to achieve objectives, peace, contraception, abortion, broken homes, child bearing and rearing in intact homes, an inheritance or a debt to pass on (household and national) to some unborn bio-chemical machines with the same emergent properties as my own? Preferences.
I will put no man in office who believes my right to life is nothing more than his whim. Would you?
Do you folks really believe humanity would be better if, poof!, religious faith in Good and Evil was replaced with a transient morality (philosophically, whim, or biologically) morality, that none actually had faith in?[/quote]
Lol you want to respond to one line in a post that was a throwaway line? for real? GTFO. Yes it would be more moral if there was no religion. Prove that it wouldn’t be. That is how we believers do it eh? Oh and a bunch of gibberish about knowing my holy books all the while likely never read them.
So funny you should use slavery as there were several religions that were quite all right with it as was the bible. So there must of been some mistranslation of the old holy work there eh or perhaps we used some non religious means of discernment to decide it might indeed be wrong to enslave another human. We’ll give the anti slavery religions a pass on this one though they aren’t biblical literalists either.
If you are one of those fire breathing true believers of the old testament I can get on board. I don’t think some of our actions are going to be particularly moral but what the hell I like some of these moral rules…you might even say I prefer them.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 Don’t touch my nuts bitch
Numbers 16:23, 31-33 is how I’d handle doctrinal dispute nom nom nom
Psalm 137:9 Abortions fuck yeah.
Acts 4-5 Capitalism bad Communism good.
Samuel 15:33 Killing is wrong so we are going to kill you for doing it. This one is a famous one!
Ezekiel 23:20-21 Why the brothers get all the hawt bitches 
Lev. 25:44, 1 Peter 2:18 I want Mexican slaves those Canadian slaves are lazy.
Ecclesiastes 8:15 This one is the linchpin of all my moral belief.
Matthew 28:18 and 1 John 5:19 are a puzzling conundrum to me. Help me my brothers.
Timothy 2:12 another strong contender for my favorite moral premise. Get me a sammich and shut it.
Judges 21 Feel free to rape away religious people.
Numbers 31:18, Hosea 1:2 & 2:1-3 adultery not bad after all.
Leviticus 20:13 Kill the fags…note that only the receiver is to be killed as the ritual sodomy of the conquered warrior is ok.
So many precepts so little time.
Luke 16:17 This is why those there rules in the old testament are binding forever.
Mark 7:10 I guess I was wrong about killing your own kids.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Murder nor theft has a moral component, it is simply action or inaction resulting from a Risk vs. Reward calculation. Not good, or evil, just risk vs reward.
A foundation of sand.
Be glad we cling to our ‘superstitions,’ and our faith. Even if we don’t don’t admit it. Some have even posited that religion is an opiate. That it simply served a purpose, if only for a time. It still does. [/quote]
But what do we do if you ever catch on to the fact that “God says so” is not that convincing an argument!?!
That is all that seems to hold you back, otherwise you would rape, murder and plunder!
Christians, you scary…
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]groo wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]groo wrote:
I’ll even go on board that its Evil.
[/quote]
But you can’t. It’s an emotional preference. It doesn’t mean any more in reality than the preference of the Man-Boy love folks. Even if a moral value such as “must continue the species” (it can’t, if faith in the supernatural is to be excluded), pedophilia would not threaten the survival of the species. The species will survive a whole lot of nastiness. Rape, pedophilia, theft, even murder.
But it’s silliness, as there is no moral virtue such as “the human species must survive” to be found. Evolution doesn’t care if we go the way of the dinosaur. We survive or don’t. If rape and murder-cannibalism are the most likely survival mechanism in a particular environment those acts go from Evil to Good? That’s a morality that doesn’t even believe in itself.
Had we never successfully had widespread change of hearts and minds, slavery wouldn’t be a moral evil? With that knowledge we need only to not fall for supernatural (god-given rights) and emotional arguments to keep a Good from becoming an Evil. Instead, we can intellectually comfort ourselves, by keeping the EVIL a Good, with the foreknowledge that are only preferences. Good and Evil is what we wish to make of it. So relax, the slave trade was/is as Good for as long as we want it to be, and we can be comforted by that.
As long as I check out after having some fun, why should I care that the species extends past my own life? Or, as to what of state their survival continues in? Greed, charity, violence to achieve objectives, peace, contraception, abortion, broken homes, child bearing and rearing in intact homes, an inheritance or a debt to pass on (household and national) to some unborn bio-chemical machines with the same emergent properties as my own? Preferences.
I will put no man in office who believes my right to life is nothing more than his whim. Would you?
Do you folks really believe humanity would be better if, poof!, religious faith in Good and Evil was replaced with a transient morality (philosophically, whim, or biologically) morality, that none actually had faith in?[/quote]
Lol you want to respond to one line in a post that was a throwaway line? for real? GTFO. Yes it would be more moral if there was no religion. Prove that it wouldn’t be. That is how we believers do it eh? Oh and a bunch of gibberish about knowing my holy books all the while likely never read them.
So funny you should use slavery as there were several religions that were quite all right with it as was the bible. So there must of been some mistranslation of the old holy work there eh or perhaps we used some non religious means of discernment to decide it might indeed be wrong to enslave another human. We’ll give the anti slavery religions a pass on this one though they aren’t biblical literalists either.
If you are one of those fire breathing true believers of the old testament I can get on board. I don’t think some of our actions are going to be particularly moral but what the hell I like some of these moral rules…you might even say I prefer them.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12 Don’t touch my nuts bitch
Numbers 16:23, 31-33 is how I’d handle doctrinal dispute nom nom nom
Psalm 137:9 Abortions fuck yeah.
Acts 4-5 Capitalism bad Communism good.
Samuel 15:33 Killing is wrong so we are going to kill you for doing it. This one is a famous one!
Ezekiel 23:20-21 Why the brothers get all the hawt bitches
Lev. 25:44, 1 Peter 2:18 I want Mexican slaves those Canadian slaves are lazy.
Ecclesiastes 8:15 This one is the linchpin of all my moral belief.
Matthew 28:18 and 1 John 5:19 are a puzzling conundrum to me. Help me my brothers.
Timothy 2:12 another strong contender for my favorite moral premise. Get me a sammich and shut it.
Judges 21 Feel free to rape away religious people.
Numbers 31:18, Hosea 1:2 & 2:1-3 adultery not bad after all.
Leviticus 20:13 Kill the fags…note that only the receiver is to be killed as the ritual sodomy of the conquered warrior is ok.
So many precepts so little time.
Luke 16:17 This is why those there rules in the old testament are binding forever.
Mark 7:10 I guess I was wrong about killing your own kids.
[/quote]
A clueless post by a simpleminded ignorant person if I ever saw one.
Sad but true.
[/quote]
To bad we can’t use ad hominem anymore
You argue my interpretation of those passages? I think they are sound though a little bit modern. Just wanting to point out that if we are using the bible as a moral text we are choosing precepts that we find moral by some other yardstick as obviously only a fool would care to cling to the old testament as a treatise on morals. So any critique on a secular system of morals that says its based on preference is committing Tu quoque as a fallacy.
I get it you’re not very intelligent and you are taking my attack as personal it wasn’t until now. Since I like an eye for an eye as well. Your posts offer nothing substantive to any debate. You simply try to ridicule any point of view different than yours with nothing thoughtful added. Do you have anything substantive to say on morals? Or perhaps want to disagree with any of my admitted pithy interpretations of the bible? I am game for that tell me where I have it wrong. I would say the one I wrote that supports abortion is more in the flavor of infanticide but I took a bit of poetic license. There are several that do relate to making women barren and killing mothers of unborn children which would line up nicely on it if need be.
I think we need to butch up the songs a bit.
[quote]groo wrote:
Lol you want to respond to one line in a post that was a throwaway line?[/quote]
It was the only important line in your post. It suggested disbelief in your own stance.
The line: [quote]I’ll even go on board that its [pedophilia] Evil.[/quote]
You can’t. This contradiction must be resolved.
I can easily prove it with your on worldview. I disagree. Since my preferences are different than yours, and no preference is Good or Evil in reality, the world couldn’t more ‘moral’ absent religion. That would be a matter of opinion. Preference.
Then you open up the argument for living by faith and even supernatural beliefs. You will not find objective rules for morality in physical nature. Evolution doesn’t care. The stars don’t care. Neutrinos don’t care. And human preferences are just that…preferences. Traits are transient.
They can not be applied in all situations, but still be true in all cases. I’m of a faith that believes in a progressive revelation ending in–and only finding it’s fullness in–Christ, after all. The people of the old covenant were not held to my own ‘standard’ as a Christian.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]groo wrote:
Lol you want to respond to one line in a post that was a throwaway line?[/quote]
It was the only important line in your post. It suggested disbelief in your own stance.
The line: [quote]I’ll even go on board that its [pedophilia] Evil.[/quote]
You can’t. This contradiction must be resolved.
I can easily prove it with your on worldview. I disagree. Since my preference are different than yours, and no preference is Good or Evil in reality, the world couldn’t more ‘moral’ absent religion. That would be a matter of opinion. Preference.
[/quote]
Yes I don’t believe in supernatural evil. I don’t believe in some heavenly arbiter of reward in behavior. I do believe that some actions are better to engage in than others. I think this is not a mere matter of choice. I think there are many problems in trying to pick any one moral system as accurate and true. I think they all are contradictory at some point. Even pointing to god as the source since the bible is extremely counterintuitive seeming to claim actions we’d never consider to be moral as correct. The verses I cited with how I interpreted them are pretty close to how anyone would with a bit of fancier language. I think this is fine as we should assume that whoever wrote down parts of this or that fucked it up and we should use a discerning eye on what precepts we want to posit as being moral from the bible as with any system. As Pat pointed out utilitarianism works fine in some cases in others not so much. It is almost impossible to find a moral rule that everyone will agree on with exactitude that is part of a moral system that doesn’t have a contradictory situation.
[quote]orion wrote:
But what do we do if you ever catch on to the fact that “God says so” is not that convincing an argument!?![/quote]
We act like men lacking faith in anything that can’t be measured, despite what we might claim.
It is our foundation that brings us back as a people to repent. We will always fail, repent, do the good work, fail, repent, do the good work. If it weren’t for faith, it’d be mostly failing. Along with the entire western world.
I sympathize with a transcendent view of ethics but there are others. This would be a summation of an empirical view of the morality. It places all the religious and philosophers that believe in an apriori system on one side and the empiricists on the other. I find it interesting. But of course if you disagree on his premises of course it won’t be convincing. But it describes a system with no universal existent absolutes.
[quote]groo wrote:
Yes I don’t believe in supernatural evil.[/quote]
I know, and so it circles back to my earlier statements.
To say that pedophilia is evil is best left to us superstitious folks. There is no such thing as natural evil, after all.
Lord knows a better society could be built on the soft ‘morality’ of, “Pedophilia is a preference.” “Rights are not inalienable.” “There is no good or evil, only traits and/or risk vs. reward.”
But hey, I’m just trying to help a fellow out with some schoolwork.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]groo wrote:
A bunch of stuff in response to sadness and truth.
[/quote]
You totally butchered the interpretations and context of so many of the scriptures that I simply don’t have the time to address each one. They were cheap shots. Unsubstantiated cheap shots copied and pasted from an atheist website and paraphrastically titled, “How to Gig a Christian in an Internet Debate When You Really Don’t Know What You’re Talking About.”[/quote]
I copied the verses but I was aware of all of them. I have read the bible a few times.
I absolutely did not butcher the interpretations. Some of them were even funny. Some were of course tragic.
Why does a believer get to pick the scriptures he likes and ignore the others? I didn’t post the original text for them because I thought people might find it a bit tiresome(the ones not interested in scripture for example).
I will edit my post to include the relevant scripture so I don’t make it a pain for people why disagree with my interpretation to have to do the work of finding the scripture.
I most certainly am not going to entertain another ultraorthodox-ultrafundamentalist-ultraliteralist-old testament-atheist discovering what Christianity REALLY entails. Been there done that, seen these same copy and pasted passages over and over on this here forum.
Deuteronomy 25:11-12
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, 12 you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity. mine: Don’t touch my nuts bitch
Numbers 16:23, 31-33 Part of a longer passage dealing with a group of his tribe that were angry about all the time in the desert. " As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, and all those associated with Korah, together with their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the realm of the dead, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community."
This is how I’d handle doctrinal dispute nom nom nom mine of course but I can’t open up the ground to suck people in when they disagree with me but oh if I could.
Psalm 137:9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.
I agree not abortion so I lied a bit. mine: Abortions fuck yeah.
Acts 4-5 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And Godâ??s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostlesâ?? feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need.
36 Joseph, a Levite from Cyprus, whom the apostles called Barnabas (which means â??son of encouragementâ??), 37 sold a field he owned and brought the money and put it at the apostlesâ?? feet.
Acts 5
Ananias and Sapphira
1 Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. 2 With his wifeâ??s full knowledge he kept back part of the money for himself, but brought the rest and put it at the apostlesâ?? feet.
3 Then Peter said, â??Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didnâ??t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasnâ??t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied just to human beings but to God.â??
5 When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened. 6 Then some young men came forward, wrapped up his body, and carried him out and buried him.
7 About three hours later his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter asked her, â??Tell me, is this the price you and Ananias got for the land?â??
â??Yes,â?? she said, â??that is the price.â??
9 Peter said to her, â??How could you conspire to test the Spirit of the Lord? Listen! The feet of the men who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out also.â??
10 At that moment she fell down at his feet and died. Then the young men came in and, finding her dead, carried her out and buried her beside her husband. 11 Great fear seized the whole church and all who heard about these events.
mine and I trimmed out a bit of longwindedness I thought. Capitalism bad Communism good.
Samuel 15:33 But Samuel said,
â??As your sword has made women childless,
so will your mother be childless among women.â??
This is famous because it was quoted when denying Eichman clemency. I do like this one its poetic and certainly hits a chord. Killing is wrong so we are going to kill you for doing it. This one is a famous one!
Ezekiel 23:20-21 There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. 21 So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.
I was sorta trying to make a joke with this one but hey. Why the brothers get all the hawt bitches
Lev. 25:44 Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.,
Peter 2:18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh
I want Mexican slaves those Canadian slaves are lazy.
Ecclesiastes 8:15 So I commend the enjoyment of life, because there is nothing better for a person under the sun than to eat and drink and be glad. Then joy will accompany them in their toil all the days of the life God has given them under the sun.
I have nothing against this. This one is the linchpin of all my moral belief.
Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, â??All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me
1 John 5:19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
These are a puzzling conundrum to me. Help me my brothers. I would agree they aren’t being literal but again that is my point the bible isn’t a literal text of morals.
Timothy 2:12 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearingâ??if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
I did lie here this isn’t a contender for me since I do kinda like women. another strong contender for my favorite moral premise. Get me a sammich and shut it.
Judges 21 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 â??This is what you are to do,â?? they said. â??Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.â?? 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.
13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.
15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the LORD had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. 16 And the elders of the assembly said, â??With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? 17 The Benjamite survivors must have heirs,â?? they said, â??so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18 We canâ??t give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: â??Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.â?? 19 But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, which lies north of Bethel, east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and south of Lebonah.â??
20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, â??Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, â??Do us the favor of helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war. You will not be guilty of breaking your oath because you did not give your daughters to them.â??â??
Ok how is this not advocating murder, rape, and kidnapping? Feel free to rape away religious people.
Numbers 31:18 this part just says seek virgins.
, Hosea 1:2 When the LORD began to speak through Hosea, the LORD said to him, â??Go, marry a promiscuous woman and have children with her, for like an adulterous wife this land is guilty of unfaithfulness to the LORD &
2:1-3Rebuke your mother, rebuke her,
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband.
Let her remove the adulterous look from her face
and the unfaithfulness from between her breasts.
3 Otherwise I will strip her naked
and make her as bare as on the day she was born;
I will make her like a desert,
turn her into a parched land,
and slay her with thirst.
I would actually read this entire passage as a bit of a metaphor about Israel in general and not specific people but again thats not literal. adultery not bad after all.
Leviticus 20:13 If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
First part I was all over. The second is contingent with the historical facts of how they made war. Kill the fags…note that only the receiver is to be killed as the ritual sodomy of the conquered warrior is ok.
So many precepts so little time.
Luke 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law. There are others but this is for certain one of the bits that say all the old testament is valid. This is why those there rules in the old testament are binding forever.
Mark 7:10 For Moses said, â??Honor your father and mother,â??[a] and, â??Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death. I guess I was wrong about killing your own kids.
[/quote]
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]groo wrote:
I absolutely did not butcher the interpretations.
[/quote]
Of course you did. As well as the context. You quoted some levitical laws that only applied to a relatively few people at a particular point in time in order make some ludicrous claims.
And your “not one jot and tittle” verse was horribly butchered in interpretation. Deviously, maliciously butchered even.
And don’t give me the horseshit that you’ve read the Bible. You haven’t or you would understand the principle of reading in context. You’ve read the Bible as much as I’ve read Mein Kampf…in Swahili.
That’s precisely what you just did, pot.
[/quote]
I am not a believer. I don’t hold the bible to be literally true and logically consistent. I get to cherry pick. I think the bible is a great work of literature with multiple authors. I also don’t have a problem with someone reading the bible in context and not claiming its literal. Or meant to be any literal moral treatise. It only becomes a problem if someone is a believer that the bible is meant to be taken as literally true. Then of course these passages can’t be taken in context.
I used the new international version for the bible. Not any atheist web site.
Matthew 5:18-19,Matthew 5:17,Mark.7:9-13,John7:19 I’d say all provide support for the idea the laws of the Old Testament are still valid.
Copy and paste attack!
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Copy and paste attack![/quote]
I was trying to avoid it but he was questioning my interpretation of the passages so I pasted said passages though the formatting is shit.