Socialism's Eventual Result

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Why would anyone try to use less oil? Don’t tell me, you’re an Al Gore global warming “the world is coming to an end” freak. There is ample oil in the world to last many more thousands of years. So that’s not the reason.
[/quote]

There really really isn’t. EVEN if the shale tar sands are as viable as people say they are (they’re not) and EVEN if the Saudi Arabian oil fields are as extensive as the Saudis claim (the CIA don’t think so) and EVEN if the Arctic has more oil than they say and BP can extract it correctly (lol) major shortages of oil are inevitable unless people start really pushing into mass industrialisation and commercialisation of synthetic oils derived from bacteria. There’s enough oil with current economic (and population, big part) for maybe till the end of this century if we take the most positive estimate and then it gets interesting. Not to mention the frequent shortages and price hikes that are already routine. It’s nothing to do with Al Gore and global warming (which has always happened, so we might as well try to adapt, not prevent. It’s all to do with energy security and biofuels won’t solve that.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I SHOULD surrender part of my income in the future so that men and women like him, vulnerable as they are, can see to the health of their families.[/quote]

If you really want to help poor people you should serve them. Create a business and provide them jobs and goods and services to consume; give your money to charity or start your own non profit to help them. Because one feels morally obligated to help the poor does not mean they can use coercion (government) to force me to help them.

And besides, the poor cannot be helped by destroying the incentive to work and save.

A system of “social justice” which relies on theft of productive individuals destroys the incentive to work and save which breeds dependence on government which breeds helplessness and eventually breeds poverty.

To serve poor people does not mean to make them dependent on productive people but rather to help them become producers themselves. Maybe this means just to not interfere with people that are in the best position to do this.[/quote]

Lift I could not have said any of this better. Excellent post.[/quote]Enthusiastically agreed. See this is why I can never get myself to write ol Lifty off when he’s saying something truly brain dead. Because he also treats us to glittering gems like this as well. Hats off the Lifty.

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
What you said about millionaires does not negate my statement at all. “I’d say in the upper middle class and lowest bracket of the upper class, you’ll find the people who actually made their cash.” If the upper middle class and lower upper class is 100k to 300k a year, and your millionaires are (I’m guessing mostly older and retired people) then that would be consistent with my statement. As the upper middle class and lower upper class do become millionaires within their lifetime should they save.

Also, simply earning several million within your lifetime does not mean were not the product of privilege. I wonder how many of these people got into more fortunate positions of privilege by way of nepotism?

Anyways, to go back to what I said about social justice. I should coin the term, ‘social integrity’ alongside it. I don’t believe the cure for the poor man, are the alms of the rich man, nor do I believe however, that man is allowed to be wolf to man.

Social justice is the idea that every man by his will, merit, work ethic and intelligence should be able to achieve in his lifetime what is his due share.[/quote]

Social Justice typically means “an equitable distribution of both benifits and hardships”. Usually with no consideration given to what is earned. The Center for Social Justice has in their definition : “a bid to narrow the gap in income, wealth and power”. The term usually includes an equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. That’s one of the problems with the term is that it can mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean, and then used as a club against whatever group they are against.

You might want to understand what a phrase means before you use it.[/quote]

You just said; the term has a loose meaning.
And; where in he CSJ definition does it refute my definition or imply obtaining Justice by abusive, unfair or exploitive methods? Implementation of social integrity and social justice per my method would result in said objective. You seem to read between the lines and create an invisible elephant of 'poor people robbing the rich through taxes.

You might want to reexamine your logic before posting patronizing statements like a condescending dick.
[/quote]
Ok, we’ll ignore how the rest of the world regards “social justice” and go with your definition. How do we determine what everyone’s “fair share” is?

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]smh23 wrote:
I SHOULD surrender part of my income in the future so that men and women like him, vulnerable as they are, can see to the health of their families.[/quote]

If you really want to help poor people you should serve them. Create a business and provide them jobs and goods and services to consume; give your money to charity or start your own non profit to help them. Because one feels morally obligated to help the poor does not mean they can use coercion (government) to force me to help them.

And besides, the poor cannot be helped by destroying the incentive to work and save.

A system of “social justice” which relies on theft of productive individuals destroys the incentive to work and save which breeds dependence on government which breeds helplessness and eventually breeds poverty.

To serve poor people does not mean to make them dependent on productive people but rather to help them become producers themselves. Maybe this means just to not interfere with people that are in the best position to do this.[/quote]

Lift I could not have said any of this better. Excellent post.[/quote]Enthusiastically agreed. See this is why I can never get myself to write ol Lifty off when he’s saying something truly brain dead. Because he also treats us to glittering gems like this as well. Hats off the Lifty.
[/quote]

You gents are too kind…but I think we ALL have been in in agreement all along.

We do not disagree on the end results just the method to bring it about.

I don’t trust people that tell me they want to help me with problems I don’t really have.

I may not necessarily trust businessmen either but at least I when actually have problem I have a choice which businessmen I let solve it.

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Ok, we’ll ignore how the rest of the world regards “social justice” and go with your definition. How do we determine what everyone’s “fair share” is?[/quote]

Simple. Let the politician tax us and whatever they don’t spend on mansions and limousine fanfare they can give back to the poor.

LOL

[quote]theBird wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]theBird wrote:
I would like to take this opportunity to encourage my suggestions to make the
world a fairer and better place to be in;[/quote]

There is no “fairness” you create your own world and you live in it. You don’t know this do you? Furthermore, you cannot create fairness for those who refuse to help themselves. Sorry for the harsh dose of reality. Are you going to be okay?

[quote]-try and avoid cooperations. Try not to work for them and dont do business with them. I know
this will be difficult, but try and do what you can.[/quote]

One of the dumbest things I’ve ever read on T Nation. Do you realize that millions of people are employed by corporations? Those people are dependent on their corporation to profit so that they can put food on the table for their families. Why do you want to hurt working class and middle class people? Also by trying to cripple corporations this will only harm the economy. The millions of people employed by corporations spend a great deal of money in the economy if that money is no longer there many, many others will become unemployed. Why do you want to see people without jobs? I guess you didn’t think this one through either huh?

[quote]-try to avoid purchasing mass produced goods. Even if you have to spend an extra dollar, purchase
something that has been made locally by locals.[/quote]

Another dumb idea for obviuous reasons.

Why would anyone try to use less oil? Don’t tell me, you’re an Al Gore global warming “the world is coming to an end” freak. There is ample oil in the world to last many more thousands of years. So that’s not the reason.
[/quote]

You missed the point of my post, zebMan.
F*ck the cooperations. Take off your serial number and burn it.
Im no fool.
No offense, I dont care what effect that has on you.

tweet tweet[/quote]

Oh I get it you’re a brainless twit twit…

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Why would anyone try to use less oil? Don’t tell me, you’re an Al Gore global warming “the world is coming to an end” freak. There is ample oil in the world to last many more thousands of years. So that’s not the reason.
[/quote]

There really really isn’t. EVEN if the shale tar sands are as viable as people say they are (they’re not) and EVEN if the Saudi Arabian oil fields are as extensive as the Saudis claim (the CIA don’t think so) and EVEN if the Arctic has more oil than they say and BP can extract it correctly (lol) major shortages of oil are inevitable unless people start really pushing into mass industrialisation and commercialisation of synthetic oils derived from bacteria. There’s enough oil with current economic (and population, big part) for maybe till the end of this century if we take the most positive estimate and then it gets interesting. Not to mention the frequent shortages and price hikes that are already routine. It’s nothing to do with Al Gore and global warming (which has always happened, so we might as well try to adapt, not prevent. It’s all to do with energy security and biofuels won’t solve that.[/quote]

LMAO!

Thanks man you’re okay.

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
What you said about millionaires does not negate my statement at all. “I’d say in the upper middle class and lowest bracket of the upper class, you’ll find the people who actually made their cash.” If the upper middle class and lower upper class is 100k to 300k a year, and your millionaires are (I’m guessing mostly older and retired people) then that would be consistent with my statement. As the upper middle class and lower upper class do become millionaires within their lifetime should they save.

Also, simply earning several million within your lifetime does not mean were not the product of privilege. I wonder how many of these people got into more fortunate positions of privilege by way of nepotism?

Anyways, to go back to what I said about social justice. I should coin the term, ‘social integrity’ alongside it. I don’t believe the cure for the poor man, are the alms of the rich man, nor do I believe however, that man is allowed to be wolf to man.

Social justice is the idea that every man by his will, merit, work ethic and intelligence should be able to achieve in his lifetime what is his due share.[/quote]

Social Justice typically means “an equitable distribution of both benifits and hardships”. Usually with no consideration given to what is earned. The Center for Social Justice has in their definition : “a bid to narrow the gap in income, wealth and power”. The term usually includes an equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. That’s one of the problems with the term is that it can mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean, and then used as a club against whatever group they are against.

You might want to understand what a phrase means before you use it.[/quote]

You just said; the term has a loose meaning.
And; where in he CSJ definition does it refute my definition or imply obtaining Justice by abusive, unfair or exploitive methods? Implementation of social integrity and social justice per my method would result in said objective. You seem to read between the lines and create an invisible elephant of 'poor people robbing the rich through taxes.

You might want to reexamine your logic before posting patronizing statements like a condescending dick.
[/quote]
Ok, we’ll ignore how the rest of the world regards “social justice” and go with your definition. How do we determine what everyone’s “fair share” is?[/quote]

Never said anything about fair share, only about fair shake. There’s a big difference. Fair shake is a leveled playing field between the richies and the poories in terms of achievement.

Obviously it will never be perfect, but a huge step is not robbing the rich and giving to the poor, but rather, illegalizing the predatory practices of the rich over the poor and the gov’t preference to them.

You remember the mortgage bailout? How did that go down? Who did that benefit? The US gov’t took the tax payer’s money and bought the properties for the banks and gave it to them. So they remained the property owners with tax payer money, yet the common tax payer who owned the house from the bank, and might have been making his payments, was shafted with the same shyt loan. He has to pay back the bank on an overvalued house while the bank got a free ride. That doesn’t make sense, the f*up was systemic, it happened on all sides. Yet the homeowner got screwed and the bank got a free ride. Think about it.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Why would anyone try to use less oil? Don’t tell me, you’re an Al Gore global warming “the world is coming to an end” freak. There is ample oil in the world to last many more thousands of years. So that’s not the reason.
[/quote]

There really really isn’t. EVEN if the shale tar sands are as viable as people say they are (they’re not) and EVEN if the Saudi Arabian oil fields are as extensive as the Saudis claim (the CIA don’t think so) and EVEN if the Arctic has more oil than they say and BP can extract it correctly (lol) major shortages of oil are inevitable unless people start really pushing into mass industrialisation and commercialisation of synthetic oils derived from bacteria. There’s enough oil with current economic (and population, big part) for maybe till the end of this century if we take the most positive estimate and then it gets interesting. Not to mention the frequent shortages and price hikes that are already routine. It’s nothing to do with Al Gore and global warming (which has always happened, so we might as well try to adapt, not prevent. It’s all to do with energy security and biofuels won’t solve that.[/quote]

LMAO!

Thanks man you’re okay.[/quote]

I’ll take that as a compliment

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Why would anyone try to use less oil? Don’t tell me, you’re an Al Gore global warming “the world is coming to an end” freak. There is ample oil in the world to last many more thousands of years. So that’s not the reason.
[/quote]

There really really isn’t. EVEN if the shale tar sands are as viable as people say they are (they’re not) and EVEN if the Saudi Arabian oil fields are as extensive as the Saudis claim (the CIA don’t think so) and EVEN if the Arctic has more oil than they say and BP can extract it correctly (lol) major shortages of oil are inevitable unless people start really pushing into mass industrialisation and commercialisation of synthetic oils derived from bacteria. There’s enough oil with current economic (and population, big part) for maybe till the end of this century if we take the most positive estimate and then it gets interesting. Not to mention the frequent shortages and price hikes that are already routine. It’s nothing to do with Al Gore and global warming (which has always happened, so we might as well try to adapt, not prevent. It’s all to do with energy security and biofuels won’t solve that.[/quote]

LMAO!

Thanks man you’re okay.[/quote]

I’ll take that as a compliment[/quote]

See now you’re just looking for compliments.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Bambi wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Why would anyone try to use less oil? Don’t tell me, you’re an Al Gore global warming “the world is coming to an end” freak. There is ample oil in the world to last many more thousands of years. So that’s not the reason.
[/quote]

There really really isn’t. EVEN if the shale tar sands are as viable as people say they are (they’re not) and EVEN if the Saudi Arabian oil fields are as extensive as the Saudis claim (the CIA don’t think so) and EVEN if the Arctic has more oil than they say and BP can extract it correctly (lol) major shortages of oil are inevitable unless people start really pushing into mass industrialisation and commercialisation of synthetic oils derived from bacteria. There’s enough oil with current economic (and population, big part) for maybe till the end of this century if we take the most positive estimate and then it gets interesting. Not to mention the frequent shortages and price hikes that are already routine. It’s nothing to do with Al Gore and global warming (which has always happened, so we might as well try to adapt, not prevent. It’s all to do with energy security and biofuels won’t solve that.[/quote]

LMAO!

Thanks man you’re okay.[/quote]

I’ll take that as a compliment[/quote]

See now you’re just looking for compliments. [/quote]

There is no doubt that oil as a function of price, realized in all years except the past decade is most likely gone. There is however significant amounts of oil available, with higher costs to extract. Considering the growing and relatively inelastic demand for it, it will still be very sensitive to supply shocks. The value of the us dollar being the worlds reserve currency, and thus what oil is pegged to is also an issue.

Natural gas is relatively abundant, and would run your vehicles on somewhere near 2 something a gallon. There is a lack of infrastructure such as fueling stations at the moment, though conversion for auto’s currently on the road would be fairly inexpensive. Why this has not caught on yet I am at a loss to explain. Considering the lobbying power of the oil industry relative to the natural gas industry I am not suprised. When companies like Exxon, Conoco and others purchase smaller companies that have significant acreage in domestic natural gas plays you know where the future will lay. Especially Exxon, who rarely undertakes aquisitions.

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
What you said about millionaires does not negate my statement at all. “I’d say in the upper middle class and lowest bracket of the upper class, you’ll find the people who actually made their cash.” If the upper middle class and lower upper class is 100k to 300k a year, and your millionaires are (I’m guessing mostly older and retired people) then that would be consistent with my statement. As the upper middle class and lower upper class do become millionaires within their lifetime should they save.

Also, simply earning several million within your lifetime does not mean were not the product of privilege. I wonder how many of these people got into more fortunate positions of privilege by way of nepotism?

Anyways, to go back to what I said about social justice. I should coin the term, ‘social integrity’ alongside it. I don’t believe the cure for the poor man, are the alms of the rich man, nor do I believe however, that man is allowed to be wolf to man.

Social justice is the idea that every man by his will, merit, work ethic and intelligence should be able to achieve in his lifetime what is his due share.[/quote]

Social Justice typically means “an equitable distribution of both benifits and hardships”. Usually with no consideration given to what is earned. The Center for Social Justice has in their definition : “a bid to narrow the gap in income, wealth and power”. The term usually includes an equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity. That’s one of the problems with the term is that it can mean whatever the speaker wants it to mean, and then used as a club against whatever group they are against.

You might want to understand what a phrase means before you use it.[/quote]

You just said; the term has a loose meaning.
And; where in he CSJ definition does it refute my definition or imply obtaining Justice by abusive, unfair or exploitive methods? Implementation of social integrity and social justice per my method would result in said objective. You seem to read between the lines and create an invisible elephant of 'poor people robbing the rich through taxes.

You might want to reexamine your logic before posting patronizing statements like a condescending dick.
[/quote]
Ok, we’ll ignore how the rest of the world regards “social justice” and go with your definition. How do we determine what everyone’s “fair share” is?[/quote]

Never said anything about fair share, only about fair shake. There’s a big difference. Fair shake is a leveled playing field between the richies and the poories in terms of achievement.[/quote]
What you said was, “his due share.” So the question remains, who get’s to define what that is?

[quote]
Obviously it will never be perfect, but a huge step is not robbing the rich and giving to the poor, but rather, illegalizing the predatory practices of the rich over the poor and the gov’t preference to them.

You remember the mortgage bailout? How did that go down? Who did that benefit? The US gov’t took the tax payer’s money and bought the properties for the banks and gave it to them. So they remained the property owners with tax payer money, yet the common tax payer who owned the house from the bank, and might have been making his payments, was shafted with the same shyt loan. He has to pay back the bank on an overvalued house while the bank got a free ride. That doesn’t make sense, the f*up was systemic, it happened on all sides. Yet the homeowner got screwed and the bank got a free ride. Think about it.[/quote]

So basically you’re against crony capitolism? Why didn’t you just say so? I can agree with that. If we lived according to the Constitution the Fed Gov’t wouldn’t have the power to pick winners and losers as it currently does.

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Wow. You are a spectacular asshole. You have no intellectual thoughts, just smug personal attacks.

FYI–
I am NOT Ryan.
I am pretty successful in that I enjoy what I do for a living. If you want to measure success by income, I do well there too. I am a college professor.
I have an MBA and a PhD in Business Strategy, so I’m also better educated that probably everyone in this discussion.

Oh, and I think I KNOW what a corporation is. Thus the degrees.

I feel the way I do because I feel that our country could be so much better than it is. I don’t like my taxes going to endless war or subsidies for oil companies, but I pay them.

I do so, because I feel it is my DUTY to do so, in order for me to benefit from our system.
[/quote]

And yet your ignorant… Oil companies do not get subsidies. Subsidy: (n)Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.

Oil companies are not given money by the gov’t (unlike alternative energy companies). They get tax breaks, that is they are allowed to keep more of what they earn. They are given nothing.

I would hope with an MBA and a PhD you would know what the word means, but apparently not.
[/quote]

I am ignorant?? The oil industry gets $4 Billion a year in tax dollars. They just held hearings on it with the heads of 5 oil companies last week!

Wow. I should know better than to come to a bodybuilding forum and discuss policy. My frustration is my own fault.

[/quote]

Welcome to PWI Garcia.

A couple of things you need to know about this forum so you dont get to frustated.

  1. Its highly conservative, we liberals/progressives/socialists are few.

  2. Dont expect to win someone over to the other side, because its aint going to happen.

Just enyoy the debates here in the paralell universe and please stick around becouse we need more guys to the left of the GOP in economical matters, and that you have Phd in bussines if I remember correctly just makes it more important that you stick around.

Again welcome to PWI.[/quote]

Thanks, buddy.

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Wow. You are a spectacular asshole. You have no intellectual thoughts, just smug personal attacks.

FYI–
I am NOT Ryan.
I am pretty successful in that I enjoy what I do for a living. If you want to measure success by income, I do well there too. I am a college professor.
I have an MBA and a PhD in Business Strategy, so I’m also better educated that probably everyone in this discussion.

Oh, and I think I KNOW what a corporation is. Thus the degrees.

I feel the way I do because I feel that our country could be so much better than it is. I don’t like my taxes going to endless war or subsidies for oil companies, but I pay them.

I do so, because I feel it is my DUTY to do so, in order for me to benefit from our system.
[/quote]

And yet your ignorant… Oil companies do not get subsidies. Subsidy: (n)Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.

Oil companies are not given money by the gov’t (unlike alternative energy companies). They get tax breaks, that is they are allowed to keep more of what they earn. They are given nothing.

I would hope with an MBA and a PhD you would know what the word means, but apparently not.
[/quote]

I am ignorant?? The oil industry gets $4 Billion a year in tax dollars. They just held hearings on it with the heads of 5 oil companies last week!

Wow. I should know better than to come to a bodybuilding forum and discuss policy. My frustration is my own fault.

[/quote]

Welcome to PWI Garcia.

A couple of things you need to know about this forum so you dont get to frustated.

  1. Its highly conservative, we liberals/progressives/socialists are few.

  2. Dont expect to win someone over to the other side, because its aint going to happen.

Just enyoy the debates here in the paralell universe and please stick around becouse we need more guys to the left of the GOP in economical matters, and that you have Phd in bussines if I remember correctly just makes it more important that you stick around.

Again welcome to PWI.[/quote]

Thanks, buddy.[/quote]
Any luck looking up the definition of “subsidy” professor?

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:

[quote]florelius wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]Wow. You are a spectacular asshole. You have no intellectual thoughts, just smug personal attacks.

FYI–
I am NOT Ryan.
I am pretty successful in that I enjoy what I do for a living. If you want to measure success by income, I do well there too. I am a college professor.
I have an MBA and a PhD in Business Strategy, so I’m also better educated that probably everyone in this discussion.

Oh, and I think I KNOW what a corporation is. Thus the degrees.

I feel the way I do because I feel that our country could be so much better than it is. I don’t like my taxes going to endless war or subsidies for oil companies, but I pay them.

I do so, because I feel it is my DUTY to do so, in order for me to benefit from our system.
[/quote]

And yet your ignorant… Oil companies do not get subsidies. Subsidy: (n)Financial assistance given by one person or government to another.

Oil companies are not given money by the gov’t (unlike alternative energy companies). They get tax breaks, that is they are allowed to keep more of what they earn. They are given nothing.

I would hope with an MBA and a PhD you would know what the word means, but apparently not.
[/quote]

I am ignorant?? The oil industry gets $4 Billion a year in tax dollars. They just held hearings on it with the heads of 5 oil companies last week!

Wow. I should know better than to come to a bodybuilding forum and discuss policy. My frustration is my own fault.

[/quote]

Welcome to PWI Garcia.

A couple of things you need to know about this forum so you dont get to frustated.

  1. Its highly conservative, we liberals/progressives/socialists are few.

  2. Dont expect to win someone over to the other side, because its aint going to happen.

Just enyoy the debates here in the paralell universe and please stick around becouse we need more guys to the left of the GOP in economical matters, and that you have Phd in bussines if I remember correctly just makes it more important that you stick around.

Again welcome to PWI.[/quote]

Thanks, buddy.[/quote]
Any luck looking up the definition of “subsidy” professor?
[/quote]

Admittedly, I have not done research on how the program is structured. My question is: what does it matter? This is just semantics. Either way, they get $4 Billion dollars a year or taxpayer money. In a time when the GOP is talking about ending Medicare, while contiuing 2 wars, does giving “tax dollars” to oil companies see fair to you?

BTW: How did that election in the most conservative district in NY work out the other day??? I forgot.

Smartass

oh. Here is the definition:

(Economics) any monetary contribution, grant, or aid

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
[Admittedly, I have not done research on how the program is structured. My question is: what does it matter? This is just semantics. Either way, they get $4 Billion dollars a year or taxpayer money. In a time when the GOP is talking about ending Medicare, while contiuing 2 wars, does giving “tax dollars” to oil companies see fair to you?

BTW: How did that election in the most conservative district in NY work out the other day??? I forgot.

Smartass[/quote]

In your (supposed PhD earning) mind, I’m sure all money belongs “to the taxpayers” and the gov’t just lets us keep whatever they decide they don’t need. For those of us with brains, we realize that money BELONGS to the oil companies and it is NOT “taxpayer money”. The gov’t has no more right to it than they do to come into your house and take food out of your refrigerator.

Where do you teach, so I can ensure my kids don’t attend school there.

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
[Admittedly, I have not done research on how the program is structured. My question is: what does it matter? This is just semantics. Either way, they get $4 Billion dollars a year or taxpayer money. In a time when the GOP is talking about ending Medicare, while contiuing 2 wars, does giving “tax dollars” to oil companies see fair to you?

BTW: How did that election in the most conservative district in NY work out the other day??? I forgot.

Smartass[/quote]

In your (supposed PhD earning) mind, I’m sure all money belongs “to the taxpayers” and the gov’t just lets us keep whatever they decide they don’t need. For those of us with brains, we realize that money BELONGS to the oil companies and it is NOT “taxpayer money”. The gov’t has no more right to it than they do to come into your house and take food out of your refrigerator.

Where do you teach, so I can ensure my kids don’t attend school there.[/quote]

It sounds like you are attacking taxation at its most fundamental philosophical level. It is incredibly easy to justify taxation, and if you wish I will do it for you.

Once taxation has been justified, you can argue matters of amounts and magnitudes. But you don’t seem to be doing that. You seem to believe that taxation itself is wrong. Am I right about this?

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
In a time when the GOP is talking about ending Medicare, while contiuing 2 wars, [/quote]

It’s your buddy Obama that is continuing two wars. And it is also the democrats who want to continue the Patriot Act.

[quote]smh23 wrote:

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

[quote]garcia1970 wrote:
[Admittedly, I have not done research on how the program is structured. My question is: what does it matter? This is just semantics. Either way, they get $4 Billion dollars a year or taxpayer money. In a time when the GOP is talking about ending Medicare, while contiuing 2 wars, does giving “tax dollars” to oil companies see fair to you?

BTW: How did that election in the most conservative district in NY work out the other day??? I forgot.

Smartass[/quote]

In your (supposed PhD earning) mind, I’m sure all money belongs “to the taxpayers” and the gov’t just lets us keep whatever they decide they don’t need. For those of us with brains, we realize that money BELONGS to the oil companies and it is NOT “taxpayer money”. The gov’t has no more right to it than they do to come into your house and take food out of your refrigerator.

Where do you teach, so I can ensure my kids don’t attend school there.[/quote]

It sounds like you are attacking taxation at its most fundamental philosophical level. It is incredibly easy to justify taxation, and if you wish I will do it for you.

Once taxation has been justified, you can argue matters of amounts and magnitudes. But you don’t seem to be doing that. You seem to believe that taxation itself is wrong. Am I right about this?[/quote]

I believe it’s a necessary evil, to be used only for those purposes allowed to the gov’t by the constitution.

“If, from the more wretched parts of the old world, we look at those which are in an advanced stage of improvement, we still find the greedy hand of government thrusting itself into every corner and crevice of industry, and grasping the spoil of the multitude. Invention is continually exercised, to furnish new pretenses for revenues and taxation. It watches prosperity as its prey and permits none to escape without tribute.”- Thomas Paine, Rights of Man, 1791

I also believe that taxation should be equal (not "fair).

“A just security to property is not afforded by that government, under which unequal taxes oppress one species of property and reward another species.” - James Madison, Essay on Property, March 29, 1792