Should He Stand?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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@anon50325502: I don’t disagree with any of what you’ve said. I’m a quantitative, data-driven guy. I look at statistics and facts, not conjecture, for my own perspective. But I do try to figure out why others may feel the way they do, even if their opinions are not necessarily justified by the reality…

Please note that I’m not really commenting on whether Kaepernick is right or wrong - I’m making a somewhat broader point about why he might feel the way that he does. That doesn’t mean he’s right - I’ve already said a couple times that I think he chose a rather inelegant way to “protest” and is not really articulate enough to pull this off - but I’m still surprised at how, uh, surprised some people are that he might feel this way. Psssst: hey guys, in case you haven’t noticed, the whole thing with black people and cops has been in the news lately. It’s not really a shock that a prominent black man might have feelings on the matter - even if they’re misguided feelings - and frankly I’m still surprised at how, um, surprised some people are that a black professional football player who isn’t exactly an expert in political and social science might express himself on the matter.

As for my friend’s opinion, again, I bring that up not to quibble specifically about whether he is right, but to illustrate that at least one guy who would have a foot in both camps, when asked for his feelings on the CK matter, leaned very hard to one side, and it wasn’t “I fought to defend that flag, fuck that monkey” but it was “I have no problem with it, black people are treated differently.” He didn’t call Kap a hero or a brave social justice warrior or anything, but he clearly felt more aligned with the “persecuted black man” perspective than the “offended ex-soldier” perspective, which I thought was interesting.

Which brings me to another thing I’ve been pondering lately, the disconnect between perception and reality. One of the fun examples that got kicked around this summer was Newt Gingrich’s famed interview where he suggested that Americans don’t feel safe even though violent crimes are consistently declining, or when Rudy Giuliani suggested that Trump would “Make America Safe Again” like it was in the good old Ronald Reagan days (FBI crime statistics show that the per capita murder rate for 2014 was about half what it was in the 1980’s). Just because facts are true doesn’t mean that people have to accept them, lol. So even if the facts don’t really bear out the “persecuted black man” narrative, the news coverage of selected events makes it pretty easy for people to say “I don’t care what the statistics say, I saw the news tonight and it showed a black guy getting shot by the cops while he was standing with his hands on the car, so I’ll go on believing what I see on the news over your so-called facts.”

I mean, one of our Presidential candidates spent the last several years emphatically denying that the sitting President was born in the United States. I don’t think the “truth” matters all that much to people as much as their own feelings.

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As long as once you’re aware of their feelings you educate them as to why they are wrong.

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Is he black? Really, it always perplexes me that someone who is mixed decides to identify wholly with the supposedly oppressed, downtrodden minority part of their genetic makeup.

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I appreciate your thoughts and respect your opinion. If you were talking about me, I am as far from an idealist as you can get. The point about athletes, actors, singers, etc, not knowing anything about real life is correct, but you know what, that’s on them. They are stupid by choice. That does not excuse their filthy actions toward this nations flag.

I sincerely appreciate your friend’s service and dedication to the country, that said, I disagree. Being black, white, green, or yellow has nothing to do with respecting our country. Being black is not a free for all card to do and say what you want. Everyone who lives in American, has a responsibility to America.

Look, This is on me, this has really bothered me, so much that I have taken to posting about shit outside my lane, I need to quit, you are right it changes nothing. For the past couple of years, regardless for what I try to do for my country to help keep it safe and free, I personally feel we as a nation, are dying. Rotting from within, CK just hit me the wrong way. I sincerely and honestly feel that the United States of America will not exist in its present form 30 years from now.

I ocassionaly check in on you log, especially about kettlebell moves, be safe. watch your 6.

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Idaho, you are completely allowed to have an opinion mate, it’s not out of your lane at all. We all have things that hit us completely wrong–just look at the rants I threw down on the old “Vaccine” thread…I view that as endangering lives much like you view Kap as pissing on the flag and what ideals that flag represents. What I like about this country is that despite all the PC bullshit uber safe space censors, we all have rights to our opinions and to voice them, and there ARE NO LANES where those are concerned.

You and ActivitiesGuy are two posters and people I respect very highly, and even though you’re coming at this from completely different angles that’s ok.

Mark Twain had a way with words: “You see my kind of loyalty was loyalty to one’s country, not to its institutions or its office-holders. The country is the real thing, the substantial thing, the eternal thing; it is the thing to watch over, and care for, and be loyal to; institutions are extraneous, they are its mere clothing, and clothing can wear out, become ragged, cease to be comfortable, cease to protect the body from winter, disease, and death. To be loyal to rags, to shout for rags, to worship rags, to die for rags—that is a loyalty of unreason, it is pure animal; it belongs to monarchy, was invented by monarchy; let monarchy keep it…the citizen who thinks he sees that the commonwealth’s political clothes are worn out, and yet holds his peace and does not agitate for a new suit, is disloyal; he is a traitor. That he may be the only one who thinks he sees this decay, does not excuse him; it is his duty to agitate anyway, and it is the duty of the others to vote him down if they do not see the matter as he does.”

I am of the opinion that is exactly what you are doing.

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Man I need to read some Twain.
Lots of good sense in his and Will Rogers’ writings.

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[quote=“ActivitiesGuy, post:241, topic:221005”]
…I don’t think the “truth” matters all that much to people as much as their own feelings.
…[/quote]

…And you can believe that is true from one end of the Political Spectrum to the other.

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I was referring to you with the word “idealist” but, don’t get me wrong, it wasn’t meant as an insult…you have every right to criticize Kaepernick’s actions, but in my interpretation of your posts, it seemed like you almost could not believe why he would be doing this, and that’s what I found surprising.

I agree that the type of celebrity that I am describing is being stupid “by choice” (or at least “lack of necessity to be educated about certain issues because they have so much money it doesn’t really matter whether they are informed or not”) and don’t think that it excuses any inappropriate behavior, flag-related or otherwise; to bring the vaccine thing up again, I have a buddy who’s an infectious-disease epidemiologist and ends up in Twitter wars periodically with anti-vaccine celebrities who perpetuate anti-science bullshit. But at least I can understand why they are that way, even if it’s dumb, there is some level of propaganda out there & they are susceptible to it…which, again, is why celebs are often poorly suited to be public mouthpieces about a lot of things. That doesn’t mean they aren’t entitled to their opinion.

I also have been feeling plenty of the our-nation-is-going-to-hell and this-generation-has-so-much-god-dang-entitlement-it-makes-me-sick feelings (although I don’t think Trump is the guy to Make America Great Again, lol). I just reserve my scorn for cases like “Wealthy white woman throws party for son who killed four people while driving drunk before helping him flee the country” and other things of that ilk, which I find a hell of a lot more disgusting because even when I try to figure it out, I see no rational explanation for it. I can disagree with Kaepernick, but when I stand in his shoes I can at least see how he might have arrived at his position, even if I think that a) he’s wrong and b) he’s chosen an inelegant method of protest.

As for the “United States of America will not exist in its present form 30 years from now” - I have had some ponderings about this myself. It’s far too easy for us to take it for granted that we are a preeminent world power and will always be that way - but countries rise and fall, and we’re frankly spoiled to have lived in a country of (relative) peace and security across the pond from a couple of World Wars (just so no one gets their panties in a bunch, I am speaking in generalities, well aware that many Americans paid the ultimate price over wars in several different countries during that time). There’s no rule that says we have to be the 50 States forever. The question is, if we are no longer the 50 States a couple decades from now…will that be a good thing or a bad thing? I really don’t know. I love reading alt-history books about things like “What if the Confederate States had won the Civil War?” and other topics of that ilk…so who knows where that may go. I happen to think the fact that Trump - who is capable of saying something that’s recorded publicly, then literally denying that he ever said it the very next day, not just once but over and over and over again - is a serious candidate for President means we are a whole lot closer to said implosion than we may think.

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As a guy in the U.S., can I get an accurate portrayal of what’s up in the Mid East by watching CNN?

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I think Twain best explains why people are pissed at Kap, we can all acknowledge that we as a country are not perfect. But despite our imperfections, we must still love this place. It’s like family, you love them even though they might piss you off to no end sometimes. Had Cap expressed his concern about this issue and still shown respect for our flag, he would be viewed in a higher esteem.

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I think you would enjoy this:

Actually, you are correct, stupid on my part. [quote=“ActivitiesGuy, post:250, topic:221005”]
I happen to think the fact that Trump - who is capable of saying something that’s recorded publicly, then literally denying that he ever said it the very next day, not just once but over and over and over again - is a serious candidate for President means we are a whole lot closer to said implosion than we may think.
[/quote]

Agreed. I also feel the same about Clinton, Cruz, Sanders, Warren,etc… the House and Senate. No leadership, no leader who actually cares about our country. We give 113 billion to Afghanistan, watch most of it being stolen by the utter corruption here and neglect our own citizens with impunity. We are rotting, when you care more about ( insert country here) than you do you own people, then you are rotting from within.

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No. I was using CNN as broad example. I also don’t think you can get an accurate account with Fox, MSNBC, NBC, CBS, BBC, or any of them. They don’t report the “news”, they report their philosophy of the news and pander their view to their target demographic. It is truely ironic, but, when I was in Turkmenistan, some of the best “news” or just the reporting of the facts, was CCTV (Chinese Communist News Channel).

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Are the Turkmen in Syria/Turkey connected or affiliated with the nation of Turkmenistan? Or are they just like “ethnic descendants” of the same people?

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Since it hasn’t been brought up yet, I thought I’d bring it up. This isn’t the only example and there’s quite a few like it. Thoughts and opinions?

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I am not an expert, since , I was connected with the military. I spent time in northern Iraq in 2007 and their lineage can be traced back to Central Asia, from the 11-12 centuries. Based on what I saw, and the troops I worked with, “ethnic descendants” is an accurate statement. No, ethic slur intended, but, the “Asian features”, I have seen in several “stans” are not as defined in Iraq/Syria. Just my personal experience in a limited bubble.

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If you go back and read my posts, you know where I stand, but, it appears I am a dinosaur in believing we should honor our nation. What is suprising to me, (and as it was pointed out), I am an idealist when it comes to to this issue, so forgive me for being stupid, is how many NFL and college coachs are kissing the public’s ass on this issue. Now, I haven’t read every article out there, so, I may be wrong, but, I have not read about any NFL or college coach coming out and saying: “They have every right to protest under the Constitution, but, I don’t agree, they are pissing on everyone who fought and died for that flag”.

No, I haven’t seen that and probably will not, you see, they want that contract next year, fuck the country. IMHO.

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  1. This article might give you a better idea of the range of opinions on the issue amongst the NFL coaching circles. People are all over the map. Some coaches actually are pretty close to what you say here. Most are walking some kind of middle ground.

  2. As for the last sentence, you’re showing your idealist colors again, lol. You’re talking about this from the perspective of an ex-military man. But NFL teams aren’t military units, and NFL players will not take kindly to coaches telling them how to live their lives (other than calling the plays, haha). This topic has come up periodically when a story surfaces of any ex-college coach struggling to transition to the NFL; college coaches are used to being able tell college players what to do and expect (for the most part) compliance with said orders, because in college, the players have zero leverage - there is no labor union, no contract, and guys who stand against a coaches’ order will soon find themselves out of a scholarship.

In the NFL, the situation is essentially reversed. Professional players have a whole lot more leverage; the star players are much bigger and more valuable assets than most coaches. Also, being older, NFL players take much less kindly to coaches telling them what to do off the field; they’re grown men. A coach that takes a stand on this issue, if he has a couple of strong-minded players in the locker room that feel otherwise, is going to face consternation and tension within his locker room.

Remember: NFL teams aren’t military units. No matter how much they like to pretend there’s some connection between football and war, football players are NOT soldiers, and coaches are NOT generals or colonels or majors that can give them orders (again, save for calling the plays, haha) with the threat of court-martial if they fail to comply.

Really, the onus here would fall on the NFL commissioner’s office to mandate that players stand before games or get fined. Coaches really aren’t in a good position to take this stand; the league office would have to be the one to take action here, and if they did, can you imagine the PR backlash? The media would have an absolute field day getting quotes from players who felt that their “freedom of speech was being oppressed” or something like that (as we’ve discussed earlier in this thread, people will use the First Amendment as a shield for all kinds of things).

Finally, I do have to chuckle at your idealism once more with “they want that contract next year, fuck the country.” How many times have you been offered a $5 million salary to do anything? If you had spent your life building your way up to the opportunity to coach an NFL team, would you really decide that this was the proverbial hill you were going to die on? If your job security for the next year depended on keeping your players focused on winning football games, it’s far safer to give a milquetoast “I respect our players and their right to express themselves as men; my job is to prepare the team to play football games” answer than anything else.

I certainly respect your opinion, I just think you’re coming at this from a shockingly idealistic perspective. It’s kind of funny that you’ve pontificated about how inexcusable it is that players should be uninformed when their hotel rooms get CNN; on this thread, you come off like a guy who’s never actually read the Sports page (maybe you haven’t?) or watched ESPN.