Serving Your Country

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

And if you want to be President of the United States, you have to have first risen to the rank of at least Lieutenant Colonel, through the enlisted ranks, in a combat MOS, and have proven combat experience.

[/quote]

I do agree that the executive and legislative branches are overly represented by Ivy League trained lawyers, but I would broaden your Lieutenant Colonel requirement to include the diplomatic, intelligence, and national security communities. So at least GS-12 or FS-03. I believe that limiting POTUS eligibility to former field grade combat arms officers would needlessly narrow the talent pool, to the detriment of overall statecraft. The techniques of statecraft in the realm of foreign policy include propaganda, diplomacy, economic statecraft, military statecraft, and intelligence. Statesmen should be well-versed in the fundamentals of all this techniques, and be a subject matter expert in at least one.

To view statecraft purely in military terms or as a dichotomy between war and diplomacy is a fundamental error. The next section is an example of the hazards of emphasizing military statecraft (and its practitioners) in the pursuit of a state’s grand strategy. The most famous treatise on statecraft is arguably Machiavelli’s “The Prince”. In view of the mercantalists’ emphasis on power and the national interest, one might expect Machiavelli to have embraced their views. Not so. Machiavelli seems to have had little interest in economic statecraft of any kind. Shortly before writing “The Prince”, he wrote as follows to a friend:

“Fortune has decreed that, as I do not know know how to reason either about the art of silk or the art of wool, either about profits or about losses, it befits me to reason about the state.”

Albert Hirschman interprets this comment as revealing “the complete failure of Machiavelli to perceive any connection between economics and politics.” The content of “The Prince” lends support to Hirshman’s view of Machiavelli. Machiavelli may have been the first political scientist, but he certainty wasn’t the first political economist.

In considering how the strength of states should be measured, the discussion is cast in military terms. In considering the duties of a prince, he advises him to “have no other aim or thought . . . but war and its organization and discipline, for that is the only art that is necessary to one that commands.” Clearly, military techniques of statecraft dominate Machiavelli’s thought. In my opinion, his parochial treatment of statecraft, as learned and influential as it was and remains, represents the most salient flaw of his work.

In the “Discourses” Machiavelli attacks the widely held mercantalist view that “money is the sinews of war”, a position that is widely accepted among international relations theorists today. Five hundred years later from Machiavelli’s time, the role of economic statecraft has become even more important in the foreign policies of states.

If the position of POTUS is limited to field grade combat arms officers, I believe that the United States will unnecessarily limit the pool of talent that could serve the nation competently, to the detriment of the overall statecraft of the United States.

[quote]2busy wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
when I was at Fort Knox waiting for my re-training as a Scout
[/quote]

You and I have marched over the same hills at Ft. Knox.

What Regiment did you go through with training?[/quote]

5/15.

Alpha Trooooop!

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]2busy wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
when I was at Fort Knox waiting for my re-training as a Scout
[/quote]

You and I have marched over the same hills at Ft. Knox.

What Regiment did you go through with training?[/quote]

5/15.

Alpha Trooooop![/quote]

Agony, Misery, and Heartbreak.

Why you did - Much like Lt. Dan every male in my family has served in the military since setting foot in this country (although Grandpa came here in 1930 so it’s really not that long of a tradition). Plus I drank my way out of college in the 1980’s so I needed a job.

What did it do for you? It taught me that going to class hungover at 9:30 is easier than running 8 miles hungover at 05:30, so responsibility and shit, plus a nice pension and 14 surgeries.

What did you do for it? I showed up, marched a lot, slept in woods, deserts and rainforests, got to blow up inanimate objects, dug lots of holes, basically infantry stuff.

Would you go back and do it again knowing what you know now? Sure, but I would have been a clerk instead of 11b, there life is the shit.

Does it make you more patriotic? Nope, I am just as disinterested in patriotism as I was when I joined. I grew up on Marine Corps bases and military towns, flying flags and bumper stickers don’t mean you love America and burning flags doesn’t mean you hate it. Patriotism is an issue best left to individual interpretation.

Do you like it or hate it when people say “thank you”? I laugh and say “For what” it’s more embarrassing than annoying really, people assume that you have made some monumental sacrifice for their greater good when really guys like me were lucky enough to never get shot at.

Regrets? Things you wish you did differently? I don’t have any regrets other than not taking advantage of everything that the Army had to offer, experience wise. I was lucky enough to be in some beautiful places, but all I remember is the bars and drink specials (Lewers Street Annex $1.75 Mai-Tais), I probably should have broadened my horizons more when I was young rather than waiting until I smelled like Ben-Gay.

[quote]doogie wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]2busy wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
when I was at Fort Knox waiting for my re-training as a Scout
[/quote]

You and I have marched over the same hills at Ft. Knox.

What Regiment did you go through with training?[/quote]

5/15.

Alpha Trooooop![/quote]

Agony, Misery, and Heartbreak.[/quote]

Alpha Troop, 6th Cav for basic.

Delta Troop, 1/322 7th Cav for my Service.

I remember those hills still 30+ years later!

I knew we were in trouble when they sent the deuce and a halfs AROUND to the other side of Heartbreak…

And they had to open up the gates blocking the road for us to head that way.

Checking on what unit I was with for basic had me run across my papers for promotion to Sergeant. :slight_smile:

Nope…

I think that those who framed the requirement for President got it right, in NOT making high Military Service a requirement…but also not a disqualification.

For every Ike or Petreus (just speculating that he would have made a great President)…you could have a Patton or McArthur. Great generals…but I would not want them to have control of our Nuclear Arsenal or making decisions on War. Why? Too narrow of a focus.

Anyway…most of our Military men and women are too smart to want the job…and most likely don’t have the temperament for a long campaign full of bullshit and compromise.

Thank goodness.

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

For every Ike or Petreus (just speculating that he would have made a great President)…you could have a Patton or McArthur. Great generals…but I would not want them to have control of our Nuclear Arsenal or making decisions on War. Why? Too narrow of a focus.

[/quote]

Patton wouldn’t have taken the job even if it were offered, but MacArthur probably would have made a decent President. Any commander of an occupying army who can win the respect and admiration of the people he has conquered–respect and admiration that lingers on over half a century later-- has some pretty mad statesman skillz.

There is an apocryphal story I like telling about MacArthur…

As his tour of duty in Japan was coming to an end, MacArthur did give serious consideration to the prospect of running for President. Word of this got out, and a group of Japanese prepared a gigantic banner, a hundred yards long and several yards high, bearing a message of support for the departing General’s political aspirations.

On the day of his departure, as his ship steamed out of Yokohama bay, the banner was flying proudly, its message clearly visible to every sailor, soldier and Marine in the fleet:

The People of Japan Play for MacArthur’s Erection

Incidentally, 2busy, thanks for the SAMA links. I’ll see if I can find the old Pirate thread and resuscitate it on GAL.

No thoughts on this?

"I do agree that the executive and legislative branches are overly represented by Ivy League trained lawyers, but I would broaden your Lieutenant Colonel requirement to include the diplomatic, intelligence, and national security communities. So at least GS-12 or FS-03. I believe that limiting POTUS eligibility to former field grade combat arms officers would needlessly narrow the talent pool, to the detriment of overall statecraft. The techniques of statecraft in the realm of foreign policy include propaganda, diplomacy, economic statecraft, military statecraft, and intelligence. Statesmen should be well-versed in the fundamentals of all these techniques, and be a subject matter expert in at least one. "

[quote]Bismark wrote:
No thoughts on this?

"I do agree that the executive and legislative branches are overly represented by Ivy League trained lawyers, but I would broaden your Lieutenant Colonel requirement to include the diplomatic, intelligence, and national security communities. So at least GS-12 or FS-03. I believe that limiting POTUS eligibility to former field grade combat arms officers would needlessly narrow the talent pool, to the detriment of overall statecraft. The techniques of statecraft in the realm of foreign policy include propaganda, diplomacy, economic statecraft, military statecraft, and intelligence. Statesmen should be well-versed in the fundamentals of all these techniques, and be a subject matter expert in at least one. "
[/quote]

I would think that the only POTUS we have ever had (and most likely will EVER have); who possessed all of these qualifications was Eisenhower.

I just don’t think that circumstances (and our time in history) will give us a POTUS with all of these qualifications.

Again; I think the original framers of the POTUS qualifications kept it simple…and got it right.

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
No thoughts on this?

"I do agree that the executive and legislative branches are overly represented by Ivy League trained lawyers, but I would broaden your Lieutenant Colonel requirement to include the diplomatic, intelligence, and national security communities. So at least GS-12 or FS-03. I believe that limiting POTUS eligibility to former field grade combat arms officers would needlessly narrow the talent pool, to the detriment of overall statecraft. The techniques of statecraft in the realm of foreign policy include propaganda, diplomacy, economic statecraft, military statecraft, and intelligence. Statesmen should be well-versed in the fundamentals of all these techniques, and be a subject matter expert in at least one. "
[/quote]

I would think that the only POTUS we have ever had (and most likely will EVER have); who possessed all of these qualifications was Eisenhower.

I just don’t think that circumstances (and our time in history) will give us a POTUS with all of these qualifications.

Again; I think the original framers of the POTUS qualifications kept it simple…and got it right.

Mufasa
[/quote]

General Washington came pretty close.

And this guy wouldn’t have been too bad.

And once again, every time I see the acronym POTUS, I can’t help thinking that it sounds like a combination of a potato and a penis.

Which then makes me think, how appropriate: a “POTUS” is a dick-tater.

[quote]Chushin wrote:
I would wonder if requiring our presidents to have military service might not erode the concept of “civilian control of the military,” even if they were retired military.

Would coups be more likely?[/quote]

I think it would strengthen the institutional influence exerted by the armed forces. Instead of implementing policy, the military would increasingly formulate it. Not bad in all cases, but not a precedent I’d like to see pervade overall domestic and foreign policy.


My vote if he were running in 2016. Former practitioners make for better policymakers.

DANG, Varq!

I pondered mentioning Washington…but I was thinking more about “State Craft” of the 20th Century. (But he did come to mind).

Powell (and I think Petreus) would have had the experience and qualifications mentioned. Ike still seems to make it to the top of the list, though.

Mufasa

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:
I would wonder if requiring our presidents to have military service might not erode the concept of “civilian control of the military,” even if they were retired military.

Would coups be more likely?[/quote]

I think it would strengthen the institutional influence exerted by the armed forces. Instead of implementing policy, the military would increasingly formulate it. Not bad in all cases, but not a precedent I’d like to see pervade overall domestic and foreign policy.[/quote]

I agree with this; and while I think the original drafters of the POTUS qualifications were visionary people; I just tend to think that they saw Washington as Commander in Chief as a no-brainer. There just was no other credible choice with more experience. It just had to be made official within the Constitution of the young Country.

Thoughts?

Mufasa

[quote]magick wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
I would beat the shit out of myself, and almost got it a couple times in college, lol. I said some of the most ignorant and dumb things I’ve ever said in my life when referring to the military, our country and particularly Vietnam…
[/quote]

Out of curiosity, what’d you say about the military, the U.S., and the Vietnam War?[/quote]

I could, and likely have, reconcile all the vile things I’ve said about Vietnam into a neat little package that doesn’t sound as bad now, as I feel for having thought it, and spoke it out loud.

So with that in mind:

I didn’t call solders baby killers or anything of the like, and always really shied away from the “look at how evil these American Troops are” you see in movies from time to time, more often than not. But I was very sympathetic to draft dodgers, the stories of people hurting themselves on purpose to get a flight home, and people who were admit that the Vietnam war in particular was horrible mistake and LBJ should rot in hell.

A lot of this came off as anti-solder, anti-America and just generally pompous douchebag. I was an arrogant prick who hadn’t been there, read enough and let the opinions and fairy tales of others shape my worldview.

I couldn’t separate the idea of country from the idea of government and disrespected a lot of brave men and women in the process. The idea anyone would have volunteered to fight in that war was a personal insult to me.

But I grew up. Read a couple books and started to see the distinct difference between a boot on the ground and a suit in congress. I saw what happened in that region after we left, and still see the refugees today. Basically a daily reminder of the world not being black and white, and neither was that war.

As weird as it sounds, First Blood is still a movie that will leave me in a tail spin of personal introspection. I’ve watched that movie no less than 100 times, and the end still fucks up my thought process. I recommend watching the last 10 mins, and then starting all over from the beginning. I used to watch that movie rather than Saturday morning cartoons. Wore out more than one VHS tape, lol.

In short, because I’m rambling and not making sense, I was a typical leftist, America hating douchebag, and spoke freely about it.