[quote]pittbulll wrote:
^^^
my point was that employers forcing me to take drug tests are a violation of my constitution . Also my definition of force is synonymous with coerce .
Your point was that my definition included that some one’s thirst equaled coercion .
How do you have a serious discussion with a person that has that kind of grasp on English ?[/quote]
My mistake. I thought you were talking about THE definitions of force and coerce, not your own. I also thought you were talking about the Constitution of the United States, not yours.
I believe I pointed out that compel is a synonym of coerce. Merriam-Webster’s first definition of compel is: to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly .
My apologies for misunderstanding your argument.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
^^^
my point was that employers forcing me to take drug tests are a violation of my constitution . Also my definition of force is synonymous with coerce .
Your point was that my definition included that some one’s thirst equaled coercion .
How do you have a serious discussion with a person that has that kind of grasp on English ?[/quote]
My mistake. I thought you were talking about THE definitions of force and coerce, not your own. I also thought you were talking about the Constitution of the United States, not yours.
I believe I pointed out that compel is a synonym of coerce. Merriam-Webster’s first definition of compel is: to drive or urge forcefully or irresistibly .
My apologies for misunderstanding your argument. [/quote]
I do believe that urine tests are a violation of rights . The Constitution did not stipulate a difference between free enterprise and Government
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I do believe that urine tests are a violation of rights . The Constitution did not stipulate a difference between free enterprise and Government
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1][/quote]
You are free to believe whatever you want, but it doesn’t matter who the Constitution applies to in this case because you consent to the test.
You are absolutely free not to submit to a urine test requested by your employer. You are not a slave and can choose to work anywhere that will hire you. Your employer does not and can not force you to take a urine test.
A police officer can’t force you to take sobriety tests, but most people consent to them.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I do believe that urine tests are a violation of rights . The Constitution did not stipulate a difference between free enterprise and Government
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1][/quote]
You are free to believe whatever you want, but it doesn’t matter who the Constitution applies to in this case because you consent to the test.
You are absolutely free not to submit to a urine test requested by your employer. You are not a slave and can choose to work anywhere that will hire you. Your employer does not and can not force you to take a urine test.
A police officer can’t force you to take sobriety tests, but most people consent to them.
[/quote]
I am as all are coerced to test
I would be free to lose my job as well as a hostage would be free to lose his life .Or like the DUI suspect free to go to jail
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am as all are coerced to test
I would be free to lose my job as well as a hostage would be free to lose his life .Or like the DUI suspect free to go to jail
[/quote]
If you feel that strongly tied to your job, then I encourage you to gain more job skills so you no longer feel that losing your job is the same as losing your life.
You are free to either quit your job or not take the test and deal with the consequences of your action. You have total control over that.
A hostage is not in control of his life, so that is a terrible example. A hostage is not in a voluntary situation.
A driver can not be arrested for refusing to submit to sobriety tests.
The irony here is that you are arguing that it’s necessary to save people from their choices. That is the same rationale behind drug laws.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am as all are coerced to test
I would be free to lose my job as well as a hostage would be free to lose his life .Or like the DUI suspect free to go to jail
[/quote]
If you feel that strongly tied to your job, then I encourage you to gain more job skills so you no longer feel that losing your job is the same as losing your life.
You are free to either quit your job or not take the test and deal with the consequences of your action. You have total control over that.
A hostage is not in control of his life, so that is a terrible example. A hostage is not in a voluntary situation.
A driver can not be arrested for refusing to submit to sobriety tests.[/quote]
I know I am free to quit my job as a hostage is free to quit living . as a driver is free to lose his freedom ( Try drinking to excess ) and refuse a breathalyzer) and see if you don’t go to jail. The key to this argument is reasonable suspicion
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am as all are coerced to test
I would be free to lose my job as well as a hostage would be free to lose his life .Or like the DUI suspect free to go to jail
[/quote]
If you feel that strongly tied to your job, then I encourage you to gain more job skills so you no longer feel that losing your job is the same as losing your life.
You are free to either quit your job or not take the test and deal with the consequences of your action. You have total control over that.
A hostage is not in control of his life, so that is a terrible example. A hostage is not in a voluntary situation.
A driver can not be arrested for refusing to submit to sobriety tests.[/quote]
I know I am free to quit my job as a hostage is free to quit living . as a driver is free to lose his freedom ( Try drinking to excess ) and refuse a breathalyzer) and see if you don’t go to jail. The key to this argument is reasonable suspicion
[/quote]
A hostage is not free to do anything his captor doesn’t allow him to do.
A driver has already been arrested by the time any test is mandatory.
The key to what argument is reasonable suspicion?
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
I am as all are coerced to test
I would be free to lose my job as well as a hostage would be free to lose his life .Or like the DUI suspect free to go to jail
[/quote]
If you feel that strongly tied to your job, then I encourage you to gain more job skills so you no longer feel that losing your job is the same as losing your life.
You are free to either quit your job or not take the test and deal with the consequences of your action. You have total control over that.
A hostage is not in control of his life, so that is a terrible example. A hostage is not in a voluntary situation.
A driver can not be arrested for refusing to submit to sobriety tests.[/quote]
I know I am free to quit my job as a hostage is free to quit living . as a driver is free to lose his freedom ( Try drinking to excess ) and refuse a breathalyzer) and see if you don’t go to jail. The key to this argument is reasonable suspicion
[/quote]
A hostage is not free to do anything his captor doesn’t allow him to do.
A driver has already been arrested by the time any test is mandatory.
The key to what argument is reasonable suspicion?
[/quote]
The key to a driver being arrested is a reasonable suspicion a random drug test is the antithesis of reasonable .
A hostage can do anything he likes , he just must understand he will die . Just as I can do what ever I like , I just must understand I will lose my job
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
The key to a driver being arrested is a reasonable suspicion a random drug test is the antithesis of reasonable .
A hostage can do anything he likes , he just must understand he will die . Just as I can do what ever I like , I just must understand I will lose my job
[/quote]
There must be probable cause, not reasonable suspicion, for an arrest to be made. I was talking about field sobriety tests, which can legally be refused. Taking field sobriety tests can provide probable cause, which may or may not exist otherwise. They are voluntary.
If I take someone hostage and tie him up, he is not free to do whatever he wants. In fact, he is not even free to die(obviously I am leaving death by natural causes out of this). I decide that for him.
By accepting a drug tested job, you agree that your employer’s method of testing is reasonable. It’s as simple as that. If testing didn’t exist when you took the job, then you have accepted your employer’s testing as reasonable by staying there.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
A hostage can do anything he likes , he just must understand he will die . Just as I can do what ever I like , I just must understand I will lose my job
[/quote]
A hostage is free to do only what his captor allows him to do. He can’t quit being a hostage at any time. Someone else is fully in control of him. He can’t even take his own life if his captor doesn’t allow him to. He can do ONLY what he is allowed.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
A hostage is free to do only what his captor allows him to do. [/quote]
this is a point I do not feel you grasp.
If I come to you with a gun say “GIVE ME YOUR MONEY” you do have the ability to say “FUCK YOU” and I can kill you or you can give me your money and not pay the price.
Same thing You say “Give me you urine” I say fuck you and you can fire me .
One form of “Coercion” is threatening some one with a loss if they do not comply Force and Coercion are synonymous
My biggest objection to random drug testing is the lack of reason
Unless you are physically restrained you can do as you like if you are willing to pay the price
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
this is a point I do not feel you grasp.
If I come to you with a gun say “GIVE ME YOUR MONEY” you do have the ability to say “FUCK YOU” and I can kill you or you can give me your money and not pay the price.
Same thing You say “Give me you urine” I say fuck you and you can fire me .
One form of “Coercion” is threatening some one with a loss if they do not comply Force and Coercion are synonymous
My biggest objection to random drug testing is the lack of reason
[/quote]
You do not have a right to employment. It is a privilege. You have a right to life.
You will find no greater opponent of prohibition than this guy here, but your argument is awful.
However, I will keep in mind that I’m violating the 13th Amendment next time I tell my daughter to either clean her room or lose her television watching privileges.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Unless you are physically restrained you can do as you like if you are willing to pay the price[/quote]
Nothing is completely free of consequence, which is what you are asking to be freed from.
[quote]NickViar wrote:
You do not have a right to employment. It is a privilege. [/quote]
NO but I have the right of freedom of search and seizure
[quote]NickViar wrote:
You do not have a right to employment. [/quote]
I will revise my answer to you have the right to pursue anything that makes you happy and if a job makes me happy it is my right but that is another arguement
Are y’all beating a dead horse? Give it up no one is watching but me.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
You do not have a right to employment. It is a privilege. [/quote]
NO but I have the right of freedom of search and seizure
[/quote]
What?
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
Unless you are physically restrained you can do as you like if you are willing to pay the price[/quote]
Nothing is completely free of consequence, which is what you are asking to be freed from.[/quote]
we agree nothing is free of consequences , but to coerce an individual to allow a search for no reason definitely goes against the spirit of the constitution
[quote]NickViar wrote:
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]NickViar wrote:
You do not have a right to employment. It is a privilege. [/quote]
NO but I have the right of freedom of search and seizure
[/quote]
What? [/quote]
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.[1]