Scientism, Skepticism and the Philosophy of Science

LIFTICVSMAXIMVS · April 8, 2011, 2:40pm

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Why isn’t it that gravitational forces acting proces that free will exists? Humans are special and science cannot explain why.[/quote]

Why are human being special? Define your terms.

I am skeptical that gravitation has anything to do with free will. I don’t really even understand what you wrote.[/quote]

Special in that they can make conscious non-random choices/have free will

You wrote that human action proves free will. I meant why doesn’t the action of a non-human force or object prove free will? [/quote]

I guess that would depend on weather or not you belive gravity exists without human beings to experience it.

TheBodyGuard · April 8, 2011, 2:46pm

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Hard science is a philosophical method based on observation. It only requires the existence of a falsifiable premise (hypothesis) and method of measurement that bears repeatable results. [/quote]

Falsifiability requires free will. If we did not have free will, our conclusions about the outcomes of experiments would be predetermined, therefore science requires free will.

Free will puts humans in a special place. Where does free will come from? [/quote]

fucking ants have free will too.

TheBodyGuard · April 8, 2011, 2:49pm

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Hard science is a philosophical method based on observation. It only requires the existence of a falsifiable premise (hypothesis) and method of measurement that bears repeatable results. [/quote]

Falsifiability requires free will. If we did not have free will, our conclusions about the outcomes of experiments would be predetermined, therefore science requires free will.

Free will puts humans in a special place. Where does free will come from? [/quote]

Free will transcends individual human action. That human beings act proves that free will exists. No human action could occur with out it.[/quote]

Why isn’t it that gravitational forces acting proves that free will exists? Humans are special and science cannot explain why.[/quote]

i bet ants think they are pretty special too. gorillas, chimps and apes too.

TheBodyGuard · April 8, 2011, 2:52pm

[quote]eraserhead wrote:
Can we through science explore any other reality than our own? Can we see or understand things as they are in themselves, more so than an ant can understand the workings of man? Our reality is the result of sensory input being organized by our brains. For example, euclidean space does not necessarily exist beyond our perception. Sure, it exists as some metaphysical input, but what we can observe and explore through science may very well be the product of a certain type of neurons (grid cells) that produce Kantian apriori space. In other words, we are the ones projecting space, and not the other way around. This begs the question; can scientists ever explore anything else than their own consciousness?

Science works in practice, and we can use it for our benefit. Newtonian laws and chemistry work in laboratory settings, but are not necessarily descriptive of how nature works on all levels, without us, as per quantum mechanics. Whenever science attempts to explain Truth with a capital T, and things as they exist in themselves, it must assume that we are somehow unlimited in our capacity to understand. What constitutes the metaphysical “realm” may very well enter our consciousness so that we can make some sense of it, but only on our own terms. Imagine a three dimensional man touching a world with two dimensional inhabitants. The 2D people will only see an imprint. In their limited reality, they make calculations on the third dimension based on this imprint, maybe in the same way we would treat something like eternity (or even time). They can only understand it on their own terms, but they can never realize the essence of what three dimensions constitute. Anything beyond belongs to the realm of belief. Saying anything about the reality that exists beyond us is pure belief. There is nothing wrong with belief.

[/quote]

good post. I was saying much this same thing in Bible Contradictions 2.0.

TheBodyGuard · April 8, 2011, 2:53pm

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Why isn’t it that gravitational forces acting proces that free will exists? Humans are special and science cannot explain why.[/quote]

Why are human being special? Define your terms.

I am skeptical that gravitation has anything to do with free will. I don’t really even understand what you wrote.[/quote]

Special in that they can make conscious non-random choices/have free will

You wrote that human action proves free will. I meant why doesn’t the action of a non-human force or object prove free will? [/quote]

ants don’t behave randomly. and wtf do you mean by your last sentence? why don’t you tell us how gravity proves free will?

TheBodyGuard · April 8, 2011, 2:56pm

[quote]eraserhead wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Last time I checked, the light turned on when I flipped the switch. It would turn on for you too, and for anybody else flipping the switch. And the resulting light is objectively measurable on a spectrometer.

In other words, it’s a fact, not fiction.[/quote]Wel bles yer littul ol hart. Yoo sher straytined me rite owt. Try that with something a bit more foundational there sporty. I’ve already stated one million times that the remaining image of God in fallen man affords him of much in the way of formal truth. It’s his suppression of that truth in a concerted campaign of overt rebellion against his creator in an effort to escape moral responsibility to Him that’s at issue.

Tell me about the origin of the laws of logic. Non contradiction. The one and the many. Stuff like mathematics and empirical events are about 5 stories up from there. The bedrock is where all that gets it’s meaning.
[/quote]

Assuming that God created logic and mathematics, it doesn’t imply your brand of space monkey is the right one. That is the heart of the issue, not the existence or lack thereof of a divine creator.[/quote]

What are these different “brands” of monotheistic Divine Creators that have existed in cultures throughout our recorded history? You make it seem like there are so many. Please give me a lesson, and show that these different “brands” are not merely interpretations or offshoots from a common source. For example, if you use Hinduism as an example, you should acknowledge that Hindusm is quite likely a product of the merging between the monotheistic aryan teachings and the pagan culture they came across when they settled in India. What are the “brands” that remain to this date? [/quote]

it’s not a “branding” issue as much as it’s an alleged “divine inspiration” that makes one “brand” mutually exclusive from the other “brand” with allegations from one brand to another claiming sole possession of truth at one end of the spectrum and promises of eternal damnation at the other end.

ephrem · April 8, 2011, 3:14pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:<<< I don’t have a problem with science, just when its applied outside of its limits. >>>[/quote]From almost a year ago now. A reply to my buddy Ephrem who I miss very much.
I said:[quote]<<< This does not in any way mean that I reject the relentless pursuit of knowledge. Quite the contrary. When ones sees all of existence as the unavoidable revelation of the wisdom and power of God, knowledge is all the sweeter. People think Christians hide from science in fear they may find something to damage their faith. Not me. I jump in with both feet, whoooopeeee!!! Splash it all over myself. It enhances the focus on just how little I deserve the loving kindness of an uncreated Being, and one that I have fatally offended, who can produce such wonders by fiat command.

Not that I can explain everything. I don’t need to. He is explanation enough. I must confess though that I find unmistakable evidence for the truth of fallen mankind in observing the world of science. It took the world’s most powerful supercomputers a number of years to decode the human genome running calculations 24/7. Scientists are then heralded as representing the pinnacle of reason, logic and erudition for declaring this to have happened by accident. The genome itself and by extension the equipment required to open it’s secrets, but I am an anachronistic moron for believing that somebody ultimately designed both.[/quote]
[/quote]

This is for you T:

Cortes · April 8, 2011, 3:23pm

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:<<< I don’t have a problem with science, just when its applied outside of its limits. >>>[/quote]From almost a year ago now. A reply to my buddy Ephrem who I miss very much.
I said:[quote]<<< This does not in any way mean that I reject the relentless pursuit of knowledge. Quite the contrary. When ones sees all of existence as the unavoidable revelation of the wisdom and power of God, knowledge is all the sweeter. People think Christians hide from science in fear they may find something to damage their faith. Not me. I jump in with both feet, whoooopeeee!!! Splash it all over myself. It enhances the focus on just how little I deserve the loving kindness of an uncreated Being, and one that I have fatally offended, who can produce such wonders by fiat command.

Not that I can explain everything. I don’t need to. He is explanation enough. I must confess though that I find unmistakable evidence for the truth of fallen mankind in observing the world of science. It took the world’s most powerful supercomputers a number of years to decode the human genome running calculations 24/7. Scientists are then heralded as representing the pinnacle of reason, logic and erudition for declaring this to have happened by accident. The genome itself and by extension the equipment required to open it’s secrets, but I am an anachronistic moron for believing that somebody ultimately designed both.[/quote]
[/quote]

This is for you T:

[/quote]

Eph!

Don’t tell me you’ve been lurking this whole time. I’ve missed you too, buddy. How you been?

ephrem · April 8, 2011, 3:59pm

No, i’ve not been lurking. Just needed a breath of fresh air.

I’m doing great, thanks for asking Cortes (:

How are things on your side of the planet?

Shaky?

Oleena · April 8, 2011, 4:05pm

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Why isn’t it that gravitational forces acting proces that free will exists? Humans are special and science cannot explain why.[/quote]

Why are human being special? Define your terms.

I am skeptical that gravitation has anything to do with free will. I don’t really even understand what you wrote.[/quote]

Yeah this is a pretty old-fashioned argument that has nothing to do with scientific advancement or when what science is capable of.

The entire scientific method of only being able to falsify something- not prove it, comes from the fact that Aristotle and many other philosophers were considered the go-to sources for many generations in the Western world, other than the Bible, because they had REASONED through many aspects of the universe and people trusted their reasoning. Through their reasoning, they proved their ideas. That’s not science, but it appears that many people on this board think that’s what science is.

What happened was, the microscope and telescope were developed and we discovered that the well-reasoned theories of the greatest philosophers were not true. People developed an attitude of doubt and that’s how the scientific method was born.

You can look through a telescope or microscope and observe things that you can’t normally see, regardless of your free will. Free will is not even an issue to be discussed concerning science. Saying that because we know more than we previously did, we have free will is on par with saying that because a bird can see farther than a human, it has superior free will.

Oleena · April 8, 2011, 4:14pm

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Why isn’t it that gravitational forces acting proces that free will exists? Humans are special and science cannot explain why.[/quote]

Why are human being special? Define your terms.

I am skeptical that gravitation has anything to do with free will. I don’t really even understand what you wrote.[/quote]

Special in that they can make conscious non-random choices/have free will

You wrote that human action proves free will. I meant why doesn’t the action of a non-human force or object prove free will? [/quote]

Many other animals make conscious, non-random choices. For instance, my bird flies across the room and then yells at me “Come here!!!” “Come here!!!” and acts as if he can’t fly back. When I’m gone, he apparently will fly into the cupboard. He chooses not to do this when I’m around, even though I’ve never responded negatively in the least to him flying anywhere.

There are thousands of examples of animals making conscious decisions, including using language correctly to interact with humans and even each other when humans are not around (we have video recordings of apes signing correctly to each other in full conversation discussing a movie that humans are showing them, when the humans are not in the room or anywhere within sight or hearing).

Tiribulus · April 8, 2011, 5:32pm

[quote]ephrem wrote:<<< This is for you T: >>>[/quote]Hey look who’s back!!! I almost pm,d you a couple times just to see what it is, but I told you I wouldn’t so I didn’t. You have been still in my prayers my friend. As soon as I can I’ll check this out.

mertdawg · April 8, 2011, 5:39pm

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Why isn’t it that gravitational forces acting proces that free will exists? Humans are special and science cannot explain why.[/quote]

Why are human being special? Define your terms.

I am skeptical that gravitation has anything to do with free will. I don’t really even understand what you wrote.[/quote]

Special in that they can make conscious non-random choices/have free will

You wrote that human action proves free will. I meant why doesn’t the action of a non-human force or object prove free will? [/quote]

ants don’t behave randomly. and wtf do you mean by your last sentence? why don’t you tell us how gravity proves free will?[/quote]

He wrote that human action proves free will. I want to know why does “human” action differ from other physical actions in his view.

As for ants, conscious and non-random were both qualifiers, so it doesn’t matter if ants don’t act randomly, but I would change the term random to probabalistically determined.

mertdawg · April 8, 2011, 5:43pm

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Why isn’t it that gravitational forces acting proces that free will exists? Humans are special and science cannot explain why.[/quote]

Why are human being special? Define your terms.

I am skeptical that gravitation has anything to do with free will. I don’t really even understand what you wrote.[/quote]

Yeah this is a pretty old-fashioned argument that has nothing to do with scientific advancement or when what science is capable of.

The entire scientific method of only being able to falsify something- not prove it, comes from the fact that Aristotle and many other philosophers were considered the go-to sources for many generations in the Western world, other than the Bible, because they had REASONED through many aspects of the universe and people trusted their reasoning. Through their reasoning, they proved their ideas. That’s not science, but it appears that many people on this board think that’s what science is.

What happened was, the microscope and telescope were developed and we discovered that the well-reasoned theories of the greatest philosophers were not true. People developed an attitude of doubt and that’s how the scientific method was born.

You can look through a telescope or microscope and observe things that you can’t normally see, regardless of your free will. Free will is not even an issue to be discussed concerning science. Saying that because we know more than we previously did, we have free will is on par with saying that because a bird can see farther than a human, it has superior free will.
[/quote]

I was challenging HIS premise that science is limited to the testing of falsifiable claims.

Do you believe that humans have free will? You say its not an issue for science, well then you accept the existence of something that science can’t explain! That’s a short slippery slope.

mertdawg · April 8, 2011, 5:54pm

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Hard science is a philosophical method based on observation. It only requires the existence of a falsifiable premise (hypothesis) and method of measurement that bears repeatable results. [/quote]

Falsifiability requires free will. If we did not have free will, our conclusions about the outcomes of experiments would be predetermined, therefore science requires free will.

Free will puts humans in a special place. Where does free will come from? [/quote]

Free will transcends individual human action. That human beings act proves that free will exists. No human action could occur with out it.[/quote]

Why isn’t it that gravitational forces acting proves that free will exists? Humans are special and science cannot explain why.[/quote]

i bet ants think they are pretty special too. gorillas, chimps and apes too.[/quote]

Who cares what they think? The question is whether they make free will choices that while allowed by the laws of physics do not have to obey probabilistic tendancies.

Lets say we have two and only two probabalistic “choices” in a given situation which are equally probable. There is no energetic difference between the two choices, and quantum physics predicts that each will occur with a 50% probability, but only 1 does occur. When that one occurs by human choice, if we believe that we actually made the choice, then it was 100% probable-in other words, if you believe in human free will, you must believe that humans can shift quantum probability curves.

There is another way around it, which is the multiple universe hypothesis, but no one is defending that model. If you want to believe that, then you should argue that, but I’m not sure you are ready because you have already shown your inability to follow the line of argument that led to my post.

mertdawg · April 8, 2011, 6:04pm

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Why isn’t it that gravitational forces acting proces that free will exists? Humans are special and science cannot explain why.[/quote]

Why are human being special? Define your terms.

I am skeptical that gravitation has anything to do with free will. I don’t really even understand what you wrote.[/quote]

Special in that they can make conscious non-random choices/have free will

You wrote that human action proves free will. I meant why doesn’t the action of a non-human force or object prove free will? [/quote]

Many other animals make conscious, non-random choices. For instance, my bird flies across the room and then yells at me “Come here!!!” “Come here!!!” and acts as if he can’t fly back. When I’m gone, he apparently will fly into the cupboard. He chooses not to do this when I’m around, even though I’ve never responded negatively in the least to him flying anywhere.

There are thousands of examples of animals making conscious decisions, including using language correctly to interact with humans and even each other when humans are not around (we have video recordings of apes signing correctly to each other in full conversation discussing a movie that humans are showing them, when the humans are not in the room or anywhere within sight or hearing).
[/quote]

The poster I responded to said that science was limited to falsifiable experiments. My only response was IF so THEN free will must exist. I don’t care if its human or animal free will. My conjecture or challenge was “humans are special” in that they have free will, but adding animals to the list of things with free will is an acceptance of my overall premise that free will is real, required by his definition of science, and at not explainable by science. We might be able to explain how free will occurs, but we can’t explain why we believe that our actions are out of free will, rather than simply probabilstically determined.

JoabSonOfZeruiah · April 8, 2011, 9:16pm

[quote]mertdawg wrote:

[quote]Oleena wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Why isn’t it that gravitational forces acting proces that free will exists? Humans are special and science cannot explain why.[/quote]

Why are human being special? Define your terms.

I am skeptical that gravitation has anything to do with free will. I don’t really even understand what you wrote.[/quote]

Yeah this is a pretty old-fashioned argument that has nothing to do with scientific advancement or when what science is capable of.

The entire scientific method of only being able to falsify something- not prove it, comes from the fact that Aristotle and many other philosophers were considered the go-to sources for many generations in the Western world, other than the Bible, because they had REASONED through many aspects of the universe and people trusted their reasoning. Through their reasoning, they proved their ideas. That’s not science, but it appears that many people on this board think that’s what science is.

What happened was, the microscope and telescope were developed and we discovered that the well-reasoned theories of the greatest philosophers were not true. People developed an attitude of doubt and that’s how the scientific method was born.

You can look through a telescope or microscope and observe things that you can’t normally see, regardless of your free will. Free will is not even an issue to be discussed concerning science. Saying that because we know more than we previously did, we have free will is on par with saying that because a bird can see farther than a human, it has superior free will.
[/quote]

I was challenging HIS premise that science is limited to the testing of falsifiable claims.

Do you believe that humans have free will? You say its not an issue for science, well then you accept the existence of something that science can’t explain! That’s a short slippery slope.[/quote] You may find this excerpt of discussion interesting mertdawg and addresses oleena’s contention whether “free will” or “determinism” affects science.

John Lennox: “It seems (and this is a quote): ‘We are no more than biological machines and free will is no more than just an illusion.’ That strikes me as very interesting indeed because, of course, if he is as Determined as he claims to be then that takes away all meaning of the book he’s just written.”

Ravi Zacharias: “Right on because… If everything he is saying is true it becomes a self-defeating endeavor because then truth as a category is evicted as he is ‘hard-wired’ to come to that conclusion.”

John Lennox: "John Polkinghorne says this: ‘In the opinion of many thinkers human freedom is closely connected with human rationality. If we were deterministic beings, what would validate the claim that our utterance constituted rational discourse? Would not the sounds issuing from mouths or the marks we made on paper be the actions of automata?’

And then he says this: ‘All proponents of deterministic theory, whether social and economic (Marx), or sexual (Freud), or genetic (Dawkings) - and he may well now add or Physics (Hawking) - they need a covert disclaimer on their own behalf excepting their own contribution from reductive dismissal.’"

Edited as was messy; from http://www.what.isunseen.com/blog/

forlife · April 8, 2011, 8:17pm

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< In other words, since you can’t produce similar reliable proof for your emotional beliefs, the best you can do is poetically blather.

I’ll take the objectively proven light switch, thanks.[/quote]Your light switch (and every other actual and possible fact) IS MY proof. You stole it from my God and perverted it for your own self exalting purposes. Just like I did only I gave it back when He made it known to me by His unsearchable and everlasting grace and kindness.[/quote]

Lame, even for someone that eschews logic, reason, and evidence.

Keep trusting in that special feeling you have. No doubt, you’ll die with a smile on your face and will never know any different.

EDIT: That sounded snarky. In all sincerity, I’m glad you’ve found answers that make sense to you and bring you happiness.

TheBodyGuard · April 8, 2011, 8:43pm