Honestly, they ought to just make the Grinch the offical Atheist mascot.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Is the declaration considered a legal document though? I thought it wasn’t.[/quote]
It is not.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Let’s get them vouchers going. Religious folks of lesser means won’t have to be subject to compulsory secular education. [/quote]
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I’d like to see vouchers going as well. I haven’t seen a voucher program/plan that works well yet though. DC and Milwaukee (was it Cincinnati?) just didn’t impress me when I looked at 'em (admittedly awhile back). Have you seen a workable plan?
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Homeschooling exists. I don’t believe anyone is subject to compulsory secular education, although it is certainly “easier”. Also, they can go to a private school (my parents did not have “means” and I went to a private school).
I guess vouchers really are the best way if we can figure out a way to do 'em. I think charter schools are a great thing as well.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Honestly, they ought to just make the Grinch the offical Atheist mascot. [/quote]
The time of religious privilege is slowly coming to an end. May as well get with the times and accept it.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Honestly, they ought to just make the Grinch the offical Atheist mascot. [/quote]
The time of religious privilege is slowly coming to an end. May as well get with the times and accept it.
[/quote]
Accept, no. What will happen is a strong backlash against taxation and the traditional public school system. Eventually the religious will be able to recover those tax dollars, and motivated, will pool those resources to create their own schools outside of the traditional public system. Instead of simply homeschooling, it’ll become community schooling. I predict the increasing upending of the religious character of communities will lead to new and inventive ways to completely remove children from secular education, going completely around the problem.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
In other news, the administration gets a one-sided smack down.
Justices Give Churches a Freer Hand on Employment
[/quote]
Was the Obama administration involved in this?
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
In other news, the administration gets a one-sided smack down.
Justices Give Churches a Freer Hand on Employment
[/quote]
Was the Obama administration involved in this? [/quote]
"Many religious groups were outraged when the Obama administration argued in support of Ms. Perich, saying this was evidence that the administration was hostile to historically protected religious liberties.
The administration had told the justices that their analysis of Ms. Perichâ??s case should be essentially the same whether she had been employed by a church, a labor union, a social club or any other group with free-association rights under the First Amendment. That position received withering criticism when the case was argued in October, and it was soundly rejected in Wednesdayâ??s decision. "
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Honestly, they ought to just make the Grinch the offical Atheist mascot. [/quote]
The time of religious privilege is slowly coming to an end. May as well get with the times and accept it.
[/quote]
Accept, no. What will happen is a strong backlash against taxation and the traditional public school system. Eventually the religious will be able to recover those tax dollars, and motivated, will pool those resources to create their own schools outside of the traditional public system. Instead of simply homeschooling, it’ll become community schooling. I predict the increasing upending of the religious character of communities will lead to new and inventive ways to completely remove children from secular education, going completely around the problem.
[/quote]
Schools is only ONE area where this is occurring. It is happening in practically every facet of society related to government. Heck, if you are in court, you don’t even have to swear on the Bible anymore, they created an alternative secular oath.
I don’t consider it an “upending of religious character” in communities really. Have religious clubs that meet before, during lunch and after school, teach your values at Sunday school in your churches and at your events. You can still pray at your locker at your desk etc. Just do not make it obligatory.
To be fair, it’s not just atheists fighting prayer in school and related issues, it’s also other THEISTS.
I have a hard time seeing large masses moving to community schooling.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I don’t consider it an “upending of religious character” in communities really. [/quote]
I doubt the community agrees.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
I don’t consider it an “upending of religious character” in communities really. [/quote]
I doubt the community agrees.
[/quote]
The problem is, people are going overboard in the worry of civil litigation brought against them. Frankly, they are misinterpreting the separation of Church and state.
A while ago, I read about a school administration force one of their teachers to remove a cross that she was wearing around her neck. That is NOT what is meant by separation of church and state.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Honestly, they ought to just make the Grinch the offical Atheist mascot. [/quote]
The time of religious privilege is slowly coming to an end. May as well get with the times and accept it.
[/quote]
Accept, no. What will happen is a strong backlash against taxation and the traditional public school system. Eventually the religious will be able to recover those tax dollars, and motivated, will pool those resources to create their own schools outside of the traditional public system. Instead of simply homeschooling, it’ll become community schooling. I predict the increasing upending of the religious character of communities will lead to new and inventive ways to completely remove children from secular education, going completely around the problem.
[/quote]
Schools is only ONE area where this is occurring. It is happening in practically every facet of society related to government. Heck, if you are in court, you don’t even have to swear on the Bible anymore, they created an alternative secular oath.
I don’t consider it an “upending of religious character” in communities really. Have religious clubs that meet before, during lunch and after school, teach your values at Sunday school in your churches and at your events. You can still pray at your locker at your desk etc. Just do not make it obligatory.
To be fair, it’s not just atheists fighting prayer in school and related issues, it’s also other THEISTS.
I have a hard time seeing large masses moving to community schooling.
[/quote]
Well Homeschooling has taken off to a good start since 1999, about a 75% increase. As it continues to increase, home schoolers will be able to find each other more and more frequently in the localities. Naturally, arrangements can be agreed to, and resources pooled. As such arrangements increase, they too will become easier to find, attracting more.
This article talks about the increase in home-schooling and some of the inventive, by the bootstrap, problem solving, resource pooling already happening.
"Programs have sprung up over the years to help with that. In Texas, the state with the largest number of home schooled kids, there are athletic leagues and learning ?co-ops? where kids may attend classes with other children on a variety of subjects.
John Manning helps organize the Home School Athletic Association in Dallas. He says the group has grown by leaps and bounds over the past decade, not just because the number of home schooled students has increased, but also because most parents realize the need for this kind of activity. "What’s important to us,? says Manning, "is to try to provide opportunities that kids in any school, public or private, have.?
Read more: Educating Our Children: The Evolution of Home Schooling | Fox News
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Aragorn wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
To add my opinion, the banner doesn’t particularly bother me.
I see it as a symbol of tradition and history more than anything else. If I were in school with these kids it wouldn’t bother me. However it’s straight up dumb wasting large amounts of money in a civil case defending it. If someone threatened legal action, I would’ve just taken it down.
[/quote]
See, I agree with the first part of your post, but not the last. IMVHO they did the right thing on voting whether or not to fight the case, naturally. But I also see it as…I dunno, articulation fails me at the moment…I would have fought. if you believe something is “ok” but not enough to fight for it, clearly you don’t believe it’s all that “ok” in the first place. Similar with the abortion issue–the “i’m personally against it but publically don’t care” position loses points with me. Regardless of the political realities or the correctness, if you’re not really willing to stand for your primary belief you don’t really believe it do you?
And yes, that is a very extreme example to compare a banner with, I know, I know. It is the same kind of situation though, and all I could think of at the moment. :S[/quote]
You have to pick your battles. I’d rather not take away money from sports, clubs and class supplies to pay legal fees. The way I see it, you’re creating an even greater net loss for the school by defending the banner.
I would’ve conceded and then given the banner to a theist school that would’ve appreciated it.
[/quote]
I see what you’re saying. Could have a point. I have a sort of ingrained dislike of letting history and tradition die just because it might offend someone, somewhere, somehow. If there were school administered organized prayer or some sort of proselytizing going on, I understand that certainly. But really, you can never make everybody happy can you? Why can’t people learn this very fundamental lesson of life without a lawsuit?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]therajraj wrote:
Well Christians are now hurling threats and insults at the girl who brought on this case.
http://jesusfetusfajitafishsticks.blogspot.com/2012/01/ahlquist-screenshots-if-by-christian.html
[/quote]
Not nice. But humans are humans. Use courts to upend local community traditions and atmosphere, and you’re not going to make friends. [/quote]
Agreed. I think the Christians acting this immaturely are doing terrible things and are acting despicably, particularly in response to what the Bible teaches. But on the other hand, yeah man humans are humans and if this were a different (non-religious) tradition being upended, I’m sure there’d be a similar outcry, just without the publicity attached.
I mean, I’m pretty upset. On the other hand though I’m not going to go around tossing insults and threats.
I mean, part of this goes back to what I was saying on the last page (or maybe just thinking)…atheists don’t believe in God, so why should they care if there’s a passive and NON-specific public comment on God. I do definitely understand and agree with–as I said above–active proselytizing and school administered prayer and other such things not occurring. That is, from the other side’s perspective, something similar to what many religious folks are worried about with their kids attending a state school and getting inundated with things that they might not believe. And I’m not talking about “opt-out” topics like sex ed where you can get a note from your parents saying they don’t want you watching the video, whatever.
But in that case, everybody tells them “it’s your kids: you’re responsible for teaching them the things you value, why don’t you accept responsibility as a parent and do that”. So why can’t the shoe be on the other foot this time? Fair’s fair in my mind. Nobody’s going to be happy about everything. I put up with a lot of offensive shit in the past. Lawsuit’s not the answer in most cases.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
This article talks about the increase in home-schooling and some of the inventive, by the bootstrap, problem solving, resource pooling already happening.
"Programs have sprung up over the years to help with that. In Texas, the state with the largest number of home schooled kids, there are athletic leagues and learning ?co-ops? where kids may attend classes with other children on a variety of subjects.
John Manning helps organize the Home School Athletic Association in Dallas. He says the group has grown by leaps and bounds over the past decade, not just because the number of home schooled students has increased, but also because most parents realize the need for this kind of activity. "What’s important to us,? says Manning, "is to try to provide opportunities that kids in any school, public or private, have.?
Read more: Educating Our Children: The Evolution of Home Schooling | Fox News
[/quote]
75% growth sounds big and scary… until you look at how few kids were being home schooled to begin with. 1.5 million home schooled children nationwide is still just a drop in the bucket for a country of 310 million. It’s unrealistic to think this rate of growth will be sustained. I could see this being true of ultra religious evangelical communities, but the average American? I’m still skeptical.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
This article talks about the increase in home-schooling and some of the inventive, by the bootstrap, problem solving, resource pooling already happening.
"Programs have sprung up over the years to help with that. In Texas, the state with the largest number of home schooled kids, there are athletic leagues and learning ?co-ops? where kids may attend classes with other children on a variety of subjects.
John Manning helps organize the Home School Athletic Association in Dallas. He says the group has grown by leaps and bounds over the past decade, not just because the number of home schooled students has increased, but also because most parents realize the need for this kind of activity. "What’s important to us,? says Manning, "is to try to provide opportunities that kids in any school, public or private, have.?
Read more: Educating Our Children: The Evolution of Home Schooling | Fox News
[/quote]
75% growth sounds big and scary… until you look at how few kids were being home schooled to begin with. 1.5 million home schooled children nationwide is still just a drop in the bucket for a country of 310 million. It’s unrealistic to think this rate of growth will be sustained. I could see this being true of ultra religious evangelical communities, but the average American? I’m still skeptical.[/quote]
It propels itself. As it increases, it only becomes easier to do. As it becomes easier to do, it becomes more attractive. As it becomes more attractive, it increase. Rinse and repeat.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
This article talks about the increase in home-schooling and some of the inventive, by the bootstrap, problem solving, resource pooling already happening.
"Programs have sprung up over the years to help with that. In Texas, the state with the largest number of home schooled kids, there are athletic leagues and learning ?co-ops? where kids may attend classes with other children on a variety of subjects.
John Manning helps organize the Home School Athletic Association in Dallas. He says the group has grown by leaps and bounds over the past decade, not just because the number of home schooled students has increased, but also because most parents realize the need for this kind of activity. "What’s important to us,? says Manning, "is to try to provide opportunities that kids in any school, public or private, have.?
Read more: Educating Our Children: The Evolution of Home Schooling | Fox News
[/quote]
75% growth sounds big and scary… until you look at how few kids were being home schooled to begin with. 1.5 million home schooled children nationwide is still just a drop in the bucket for a country of 310 million. It’s unrealistic to think this rate of growth will be sustained. I could see this being true of ultra religious evangelical communities, but the average American? I’m still skeptical.[/quote]
Besides you shouldn’t use the 310 million figure. If you going to compare it, compare it to school attendance.
Atheism in America is very much different to atheism in the UK/Europe it seems