Sarah Palin's Speech

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
141

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Settle down I don’t hate God I hate people who try to push their morality down my throat. And don’t bring my mother into it, internet warrior, I am catholic we don’t believe in abortion either. I am scared of religion cause of all the senseless murder it has caused throughout time.

And you’re a Catholic? LMAO.

Tell me one fucking law that has been paased could could come anywhere close to pushing religion anywhere but further away from you. Just one.

Alcohol Prohibition-moral crusaders against the evil alcohol. Our current drugs laws were started by moral crudasers against the “evil weed”
[/quote]

You don’t need to be religious to not like Alcohol or drugs. All the propoganda I’ve seen and read was more about destructive behavior. While the message may be right or wrong or skewed, but not religious at all. You really have some off the cuff tall tale stories to tell, but you confuse them with the facts.

142

[quote]Malevolence wrote:

Things like don’t kill and don’t steal and bath regularly, are extensions of that, and are not mutually held by Christianity, or any religion.

But again, regardless of that. The fact remains that, Christian values or not. They have no place in lawmaking. Period. [/quote]

Man, I just do not get you. Sometimes I find myself nodding in agreement to an argument you make, and other times like this I just want to bash you in the head with something heavy.

Please reread what you just wrote. The part I edited out you used to argue that the ideals this country were founded on are shared by a number of religions. Fine.

But here you go from arguing common value overlap to quite simply saying “things like don’t kill and steal aren’t unique to Christianity or any other religion but regardless of that the fact remains that they have no place in lawmaking. Period”

Really? I mean, really?! What bizarro world are you living in? “Don’t kill and don’t steal” sound like genius laws to me. I’m sure as hell not living in any country that doesn’t have them.

In fact, the majority of values shared by religions sound like the basis for good laws-- don’t murder, don’t steal, don’t commit adultery, don’t lie, don’t be jealous, treat others as you would like to be treated, be generous, don’t take advantage of others.

I say it has every place in lawmaking, inasmuch as a specific organized dogma is not forced to anyone.

Please put on a helmet, I am scared for your safety.

And btw, the “wall of separation” was delineated in order to protect the citizens from federal gov’t subsidy of an official religion (ie- the Church of England),

NOT to keep religious people from using their worldview as a way to figure out what laws to introduce or to support, OR to keep people from learning about religion or people’s individual religious viewpoints from religious people in schools.

Simply put, the “wall of separation” was NOT delineated to keep religion or religious people out of gov’t or from making laws, only to keep subsidy of a particular organized dogma out of gov’t.

Proselytizing in a school as an authority figure falls under one area, and talking about religion matter-of-factly from one’s personal experience, or having a teacher who’s simply open about their religious views with faculty and students (conceivably even during a random class period) falls under a different area. There IS a definite difference.

143

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Settle down I don’t hate God I hate people who try to push their morality down my throat. And don’t bring my mother into it, internet warrior, I am catholic we don’t believe in abortion either. I am scared of religion cause of all the senseless murder it has caused throughout time.

And you’re a Catholic? LMAO.

Tell me one fucking law that has been paased could could come anywhere close to pushing religion anywhere but further away from you. Just one.

Alcohol Prohibition-moral crusaders against the evil alcohol. Our current drugs laws were started by moral crudasers against the “evil weed”
[/quote]

So you have to go back 100 years to find a law - which was repealed.

Drug Laws are 80 years old.

But you didn’t answer the question. Drug and alcohol laws are not religion. I asked you to find just one law that pushes religion down your throat.

144

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Settle down I don’t hate God I hate people who try to push their morality down my throat. And don’t bring my mother into it, internet warrior, I am catholic we don’t believe in abortion either. I am scared of religion cause of all the senseless murder it has caused throughout time.

And you’re a Catholic? LMAO.

Tell me one fucking law that has been paased could could come anywhere close to pushing religion anywhere but further away from you. Just one.

Alcohol Prohibition-moral crusaders against the evil alcohol. Our current drugs laws were started by moral crudasers against the “evil weed”

So you have to go back 100 years to find a law - which was repealed.

Drug Laws are 80 years old.

But you didn’t answer the question. Drug and alcohol laws are not religion. I asked you to find just one law that pushes religion down your throat.

[/quote]

I’d like him to go a step further and explain how Sarah Palin pushes religion down citizens throat. It is her beliefs, after all, that started this whole thing.

145

The distinction to be made is that, just because Christianity(and most every world religion) has some good ideas, does not mean that its other ideas are good.

The motivation for creating a law that just so happens to overlap with a “Christian value” is a consequence of there being “Christian values” that make a lot of sense for society. That does not make this nation any more Christian, and it does not dictate that the “Christian values” that don’t make any sense for today’s time should be given any credence.

We don’t make laws because some religion tells us to. We make them because they make sense for the time we live in.

Well, actually, we don’t do that, and that is part of the problem. Whether it is the liberal naivete of a better tomorrow, or the conservative obsession with the past. We don’t spend nearly enough time thinking about the here and now.

Religion(and politics) fails when it gets stuck on following ideals and loses track of pragmatism. What made sense to folks living 2000 years ago, doesn’t always make sense for folks living today. Likewise, what made sense for folks living 230 years ago, doesn’t inherently make sense for folks living today.

Besides, the argument for “Christian values” in America does not make any sense in light of the overwhelming amount of “Christians” supporting a war, or the death penalty, or even the right to bear arms. Those things fly in the face of the “Christian values” that people talk about.

146

[quote]tedro wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:
Settle down I don’t hate God I hate people who try to push their morality down my throat. And don’t bring my mother into it, internet warrior, I am catholic we don’t believe in abortion either. I am scared of religion cause of all the senseless murder it has caused throughout time.

And you’re a Catholic? LMAO.

Tell me one fucking law that has been paased could could come anywhere close to pushing religion anywhere but further away from you. Just one.

Alcohol Prohibition-moral crusaders against the evil alcohol. Our current drugs laws were started by moral crudasers against the “evil weed”

So you have to go back 100 years to find a law - which was repealed.

Drug Laws are 80 years old.

But you didn’t answer the question. Drug and alcohol laws are not religion. I asked you to find just one law that pushes religion down your throat.

I’d like him to go a step further and explain how Sarah Palin pushes religion down citizens throat. It is her beliefs, after all, that started this whole thing.[/quote]

And why people who agree with her viewpoints are “God Squadders”.

147

[quote]Rocky101 wrote:

Alcohol Prohibition-moral crusaders against the evil alcohol. Our current drugs laws were started by moral crudasers against the “evil weed”
[/quote]

Yet, you don’t see a Liberal controlled Congress repealing these “religious zealot laws”. No. In fact, they love them because they increase the size and scope of Government, and what’s not against the law, they tax to fund social programs.

And, you’ll likely vote for them again and again and again.

They’re raping you-- but that’s OK because you’re distracted by the reach around…

148

[quote]tedro wrote:

I’d like him to go a step further and explain how Sarah Palin pushes religion down citizens throat. It is her beliefs, after all, that started this whole thing.[/quote]

I do not have to. I don’t think that she does, from what I know of her. My contention was in your claim that this is a Christian nation. It is not.

149

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
tedro wrote:

I’d like him to go a step further and explain how Sarah Palin pushes religion down citizens throat. It is her beliefs, after all, that started this whole thing.

I do not have to. I don’t think that she does, from what I know of her. My contention was in your claim that this is a Christian nation. It is not.[/quote]

It is a largely Christian nation. There are also many other religions. And it is a multicultural nation. And while state sponsorship or advancement of Christianity or any other religion would be wrong and unconstitutional, much of our law is rooted in Judeo-Christian morals and values. That’s pretty indisputable.

150

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
tedro wrote:

I’d like him to go a step further and explain how Sarah Palin pushes religion down citizens throat. It is her beliefs, after all, that started this whole thing.

I do not have to. I don’t think that she does, from what I know of her. My contention was in your claim that this is a Christian nation. It is not.[/quote]

I don’t think his question was directed at you. I think he was talking to rocky101, or whatever his name is.

151

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
The distinction to be made is that, just because Christianity(and most every world religion) has some good ideas, does not mean that its other ideas are good.

The motivation for creating a law that just so happens to overlap with a “Christian value” is a consequence of there being “Christian values” that make a lot of sense for society.

That does not make this nation any more Christian, and it does not dictate that the “Christian values” that don’t make any sense for today’s time should be given any credence.

We don’t make laws because some religion tells us to. We make them because they make sense for the time we live in. Well, actually, we don’t do that, and that is part of the problem.

Whether it is the liberal naivete of a better tomorrow, or the conservative obsession with the past. We don’t spend nearly enough time thinking about the here and now.

Religion(and politics) fails when it gets stuck on following ideals and loses track of pragmatism. What made sense to folks living 2000 years ago, doesn’t always make sense for folks living today.

Likewise, what made sense for folks living 230 years ago, doesn’t inherently make sense for folks living today.

Besides, the argument for “Christian values” in America does not make any sense in light of the overwhelming amount of “Christians” supporting a war, or the death penalty, or even the right to bear arms. Those things fly in the face of the “Christian values” that people talk about.

[/quote]

I can see alot of disagreement within Christianity about 2 of the issues. But, the right to bear arms? I can’t think of any Christian values challenged by owning a weapon.

152

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Malevolence wrote:
tedro wrote:

I’d like him to go a step further and explain how Sarah Palin pushes religion down citizens throat. It is her beliefs, after all, that started this whole thing.

I do not have to. I don’t think that she does, from what I know of her. My contention was in your claim that this is a Christian nation. It is not.

It is a largely Christian nation. There are also many other religions. And it is a multicultural nation. And while state sponsorship or advancement of Christianity or any other religion would be wrong and unconstitutional, much of our law is rooted in Judeo-Christian morals and values. That’s pretty indisputable.[/quote]

Eh… Our laws are rooted in good ideas that make sense for society. That some religions have had similar ideas is of minor consequence.

153

[quote]Sloth wrote:

I can see alot of disagreement within Christianity about 2 of the issues, but the right to bear arms? I can’t think of any Christian values challenged by owning a weapon.[/quote]

Well, it is more from the idea of turning the other cheek and sacrificing for the good of many. Obviously there is no dogma saying don’t own a weapon, but what purpose would one have to own a weapon in the name of self-defense, if they truly believed in accepting punishment and beatings and torture in the name of non-violence and compassion for their enemies.

Christians follow a man who let himself be murdered as a sign of the dedication he had to humanity as a whole. How many “Christians” today would go that far?

154

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
The distinction to be made is that, just because Christianity(and most every world religion) has some good ideas, does not mean that its other ideas are good.

The motivation for creating a law that just so happens to overlap with a “Christian value” is a consequence of there being “Christian values” that make a lot of sense for society.

That does not make this nation any more Christian, and it does not dictate that the “Christian values” that don’t make any sense for today’s time should be given any credence.

We don’t make laws because some religion tells us to. We make them because they make sense for the time we live in. Well, actually, we don’t do that, and that is part of the problem. Whether it is the liberal naivete of a better tomorrow, or the conservative obsession with the past. We don’t spend nearly enough time thinking about the here and now.

Religion(and politics) fails when it gets stuck on following ideals and loses track of pragmatism. What made sense to folks living 2000 years ago, doesn’t always make sense for folks living today. Likewise, what made sense for folks living 230 years ago, doesn’t inherently make sense for folks living today.

Besides, the argument for “Christian values” in America does not make any sense in light of the overwhelming amount of “Christians” supporting a war, or the death penalty, or even the right to bear arms. Those things fly in the face of the “Christian values” that people talk about.
[/quote]

Your are using a shotgun approach here. My question is not that broad.

And in light of your post, I will qualify my question further: Can you cite a law that has been passed in the last 30 years that was specific to those christian values that do not overlap with generic values that are common across the board?

In other words, what laws have been passed that are a direct result of religious interference in governance.

155

[quote]SteelyD wrote:
Rocky101 wrote:

Alcohol Prohibition-moral crusaders against the evil alcohol. Our current drugs laws were started by moral crudasers against the “evil weed”

Yet, you don’t see a Liberal controlled Congress repealing these “religious zealot laws”. No. In fact, they love them because they increase the size and scope of Government, and what’s not against the law, they tax to fund social programs.

And, you’ll likely vote for them again and again and again.

They’re raping you-- but that’s OK because you’re distracted by the reach around…[/quote]

This is a prety misleading post. The so-called War Against Drugs has at least as much support from Conservative leaders. Bush has called it ‘the greatest threat facing the nation.’ Both parties are misguided and deserve condemnation on this issue.

156

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Malevolence wrote:
tedro wrote:

I’d like him to go a step further and explain how Sarah Palin pushes religion down citizens throat. It is her beliefs, after all, that started this whole thing.

I do not have to. I don’t think that she does, from what I know of her. My contention was in your claim that this is a Christian nation. It is not.

I don’t think his question was directed at you. I think he was talking to rocky101, or whatever his name is.

[/quote]

This thread is quickly becoming a bit of a cluster-fuck. My apologies. At least it has not degenerated into flaming and nonsense…yet.

157

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
Sloth wrote:

I can see alot of disagreement within Christianity about 2 of the issues, but the right to bear arms? I can’t think of any Christian values challenged by owning a weapon.

Well, it is more from the idea of turning the other cheek and sacrificing for the good of many.

Obviously there is no dogma saying don’t own a weapon, but what purpose would one have to own a weapon in the name of self-defense, if they truly believed in accepting punishment and beatings and torture in the name of non-violence and compassion for their enemies.

Christians follow a man who let himself be murdered as a sign of the dedication he had to humanity as a whole. How many “Christians” today would go that far?

[/quote]

They don’t have to, they’re not Christ. And turning the other cheek is a whole lot different than allowing oneself, or another, to be mutilated or killed.

158

[quote]Malevolence wrote:

This thread is quickly becoming a bit of a cluster-fuck. My apologies. At least it has not degenerated into flaming and nonsense…yet.[/quote]

Shut up asswhole b4 I kick you in tha bananas!
Go go, anti-god!

159

[quote]Malevolence wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Malevolence wrote:
tedro wrote:

I’d like him to go a step further and explain how Sarah Palin pushes religion down citizens throat. It is her beliefs, after all, that started this whole thing.

I do not have to. I don’t think that she does, from what I know of her. My contention was in your claim that this is a Christian nation. It is not.

It is a largely Christian nation. There are also many other religions. And it is a multicultural nation. And while state sponsorship or advancement of Christianity or any other religion would be wrong and unconstitutional, much of our law is rooted in Judeo-Christian morals and values. That’s pretty indisputable.

Eh… Our laws are rooted in good ideas that make sense for society. That some religions have had similar ideas is of minor consequence. [/quote]

And these ideas have their roots in Judeo-Chrisianity. They were not widely accepted and to a large degree did not exist before that. Of course, they have gone far beyond this and are now accepted as just and moral and are by no means circumscribed and limited to religious ideals.

Haven’t been for eons. That’s a good thing. Nonetheless, the origins are largely religious. What is your problem with this? What are you being so stubborn for?

160

[quote]rainjack wrote:

Your are using a shotgun approach here. My question is not that broad.

And in light of your post, I will qualify my question further: Can you cite a law that has been passed in the last 30 years that was specific to those christian values that do not overlap with generic values that are common across the board?

In other words, what laws have been passed that are a direct result of religious interference in governance. [/quote]

I cannot, and I hope that it stays that way. My contention is not with the nature of laws today. I was only hoping to respond to Tedro’s claim that this nation was founded on “Christian Values”. It wasn’t.

Or, if you must insist that it was, that statement needs to be rephrased to read: “This nation was founded using some ideas that are also present in Christianity”