Same-Sex Adoption = Child Abuse

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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"the mutual sexual attraction between male and female is inherent in man’s animal nature and independent of any thinking and theorizing. It is permissible to call it original, vegetative, instinctive, or mysterious… However, neither cohabitation, nor what precedes it and follows, generates social cooperation and societal modes of life. The animals too join together in mating, but they have not developed social relations. Family life is not merely a product of sexual intercourse.

It is by no means natural and necessary that parents and children live together in the way they do in the family. The mating relation need not result in a family organization. The human family is an outcome of thinking, planning, and acting."

~Ludwig von Mises
Human Action, p. 167.

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[quote]Headhunter wrote:

Excellent post! Single moms don’t understand young males. Women in general don’t understand boys anyway — boys punch each other and wrestle, by way of saying hello. They beat on each other for fun, and its perfectly normal. This is also why gays shouldn’t especially raise boys; they FOR SURE won’t understand masculinity.
[/quote]

I don’t know how many homosexual men you’ve met in your life, but clearly not many, or not enough to know that they too run the gamut of personalities. There are some effeminate ones but there are also ones who love sports, beer, and anything else besides women you want to associate with traditional notions of masculinity.

In my experience, (I went to NYU so I’ve met quite a few homosexual men/women as well as transgender etc) among homosexual men have been just as well adjusted and in tune with their masculinity and homosexual women just as well adjusted and in tune with their femininity. I should put those words in quotation marks because the definition of those terms is pretty general and may be different from person to person.

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In terms of rearing kids certain things need to get done, changing diapers etc. Now women have traditional taken one role, men have traditionally taken another. But the fact is those tasks need to get done. Someone needs to take out the trash etc. However, there is nothing that says two women can’t divide up those tasks as well as a man and a women.

In terms of teaching children and being a role model I think kids need two parents to show them how to be adult/role model/man or women. But I don’t think those lessons have to be taught by one gender or the other. Kids need to be taught how to take responsibility for their actions,to be honest, to apologize and all those things. They also need to be taught how to treat another human being with love and respect. Male/female couples don’t have a monopoly on any of those life lessons and I’m sure there were will be homosexual couples who get them right and others who get them wrong. I agree children benefit from a mentor of their own gender, but that can be gained through a teacher, coach or community leader and I think a loving household trumps anything else.

To I think HeadHunter who said don’t mess with my culture…they’re part of our culture. They always have been, they may have been suppressed but they are part of American culture. The homosexuals in Greece are part of Greek culture etc.

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I think in a perfect world, 2 women/2 men could raise a child just as well as a man and woman couple. But realistically there needs to be a mother figure and a father figure. How is a kid supposed to differentiate the mother and the father when he or she has 2 men as parents? Or 2 women? It just doesn’t seem possible to me. I’m pretty sure there’s a reason that it takes a male and a female to produce offspring.

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[quote]forlife wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
You seem to be a lot like the old church to me. You seem totally close minded to anything that disputes scientific “facts”. Would you even read an article that disputed evolution or chemistry if written by a rouge guy against the entire weight of the scientific community?

Take a deep breath and actually think about what I’ve said. Done? Good.

I’m not arguing that science hasn’t changed, or that it couldn’t change in the future. I’m not arguing that religion hasn’t changed, or that it couldn’t change in the future.

I’m specifically addressing the flawed argument that science was incorrect in diagnosing homosexuality as a mental disorder, therefore the current conclusions of science on homosexuality are worthless.

Get it yet?

If religion can get it wrong in the past, and eventually get it right, so can science.[/quote]

This is silly.

Religion is a made up by someone, so therefore it lacks total credibility.

Science requires PROOF, which in turn makes it harder to dispute.

Just because Religion got it wrong, in no way is that comparable to science getting it wrong.

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[quote]Mick28 wrote:
forlife wrote:
I’d like to see the evidence that children adopted by gay parents are worse off than if they are raised in a government facility with no parents at all. Is anybody even arguing this?

Good point forliar…I’m sure that a young boy watching two men live as husband and “wife” will have no ill effects at all…

…You imbecile.[/quote]

Strawman. The issue is not whether they are likely to experience some suffering being raised by same sex parents(they probably are) but whether they are better off with a same-sex couple than in foster care or an orphanage. And I think in most cases they probably are. That system is broken. Many children in foster care or orphanages (to the extent they still exist) are abused.

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[quote]jsbrook wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
forlife wrote:
I’d like to see the evidence that children adopted by gay parents are worse off than if they are raised in a government facility with no parents at all. Is anybody even arguing this?

Good point forliar…I’m sure that a young boy watching two men live as husband and “wife” will have no ill effects at all…

…You imbecile.

Strawman. The issue is not whether they are likely to experience some suffering being raised by same sex parents(they probably are) but whether they are better off with a same-sex couple than in foster care or an orphanage. And I think in most cases they probably are. That system is broken. Many children in foster care or orphanages (to the extent they still exist) are abused. [/quote]

And you know that exactly HOW ??

I was in an orphanage for 2 years before being put into foster care and that was not the case.

Further more i assure you if i was brought up in the care of 2 men posing as father and mother my head would be just a little bit screwy.

You cannot possibly argue that in the world we live in today a child being brought up in a “family” enviorment of 2 men is going to lead a normal life. Already kids who are overweight, poor etc etc get bullied what in gods name do you think the kind of mocking the child with 2 men for parents will receive ?

Seriously, im all for 2 men having fun together, enjoy it but putting a child in that mix is just not right. Just because the 2 men think it will be ok, does NOT mean its going to be ok.

Society is not ready for that leap into the unknown, nor will it ever be i would hope.

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[quote]300andabove wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
forlife wrote:
I’d like to see the evidence that children adopted by gay parents are worse off than if they are raised in a government facility with no parents at all. Is anybody even arguing this?

Good point forliar…I’m sure that a young boy watching two men live as husband and “wife” will have no ill effects at all…

…You imbecile.

Strawman. The issue is not whether they are likely to experience some suffering being raised by same sex parents(they probably are) but whether they are better off with a same-sex couple than in foster care or an orphanage. And I think in most cases they probably are. That system is broken. Many children in foster care or orphanages (to the extent they still exist) are abused.

And you know that exactly HOW ??

I was in an orphanage for 2 years before being put into foster care and that was not the case.

Further more i assure you if i was brought up in the care of 2 men posing as father and mother my head would be just a little bit screwy.

[/quote]
And you know that exactly HOW ??

Just pointing out, you can’t call someone on speculation and then make a huge speculative leap yourself.

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[quote]300andabove wrote:
This is silly.

Religion is a made up by someone, so therefore it lacks total credibility.

Science requires PROOF, which in turn makes it harder to dispute.

Just because Religion got it wrong, in no way is that comparable to science getting it wrong.
[/quote]

I agree with you. My post was in response to someone criticizing science on the basis of science getting certain things wrong in the past. Science is imperfect, but it is the best tool we have for knowing objective truth (better by far than unverifiable fairy tales parading as facts).

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[quote]300andabove wrote:
Further more i assure you if i was brought up in the care of 2 men posing as father and mother my head would be just a little bit screwy.

You cannot possibly argue that in the world we live in today a child being brought up in a “family” enviorment of 2 men is going to lead a normal life. Already kids who are overweight, poor etc etc get bullied what in gods name do you think the kind of mocking the child with 2 men for parents will receive ?

Seriously, im all for 2 men having fun together, enjoy it but putting a child in that mix is just not right. Just because the 2 men think it will be ok, does NOT mean its going to be ok.

Society is not ready for that leap into the unknown, nor will it ever be i would hope.
[/quote]

Your “husband and wife” language makes it pretty clear you don’t know what you’re talking about. Have you ever known a gay couple with children?

I do agree that kids with gay parents have the risk of ridicule by their peers, but fortunately that is getting better with younger generations being far more accepting of gays.

About 2 guys “having fun together”, again you don’t seem to get it. Relationships between gays are as rich and complex as relationships between heteros. Love is multifaceted, and is about a lot more than just sex, whether you are gay or straight. Sexual orientation affects the people you can bond with emotionally, not just who you find physically attractive.

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[quote]forlife wrote:

Your “husband and wife” language makes it pretty clear you don’t know what you’re talking about. Have you ever known a gay couple with children?

I do agree that kids with gay parents have the risk of ridicule by their peers, but fortunately that is getting better with younger generations being far more accepting of gays.

About 2 guys “having fun together”, again you don’t seem to get it. Relationships between gays are as rich and complex as relationships between heteros. Love is multifaceted, and is about a lot more than just sex, whether you are gay or straight. Sexual orientation affects the people you can bond with emotionally, not just who you find physically attractive.[/quote]

What of course not lol its not legal !

Come on your saying kids of today are more behaved than previous generations ??? Turn on the news recently :stuck_out_tongue:

If your really think that society and especially kids of today are ready and able to tolerate and not mock the kid whose both parents are men, then i put it to you, that your living in an ideal world with those statements not the world we live in at this present time.

Im not doubting that 2 men can love each other, i know 3 gay couples through my girlfriend and they seem just as content as we are, im not debating that with you. In fact the 3 couples have less fights than me and my missus have though i put that down to estrogen :stuck_out_tongue:

Look im not trying to aggravate you or put homosexuals down, im just coming at this from a different angle. I really REALLY doubt society and i include me in this is ready for 2 men to pose as Mother and Father to a child. There is something inherently wrong about that setup.

A man just cannot fill the role of a woman, you dont have the maternal instinct along with many other complex and incomprehendable things that make up a woman. Kids need their mother, their father no so much thats not really debate-able its the way Mother Nature intended it to be all throughout the animal kingdom.

I know this sounds like a backward view, and maybe i am just closed off to ever opening my eyes to this concept, but i have had so many flaming arguments with my missus over this if she can’t change my mind no one can !

I wish you and your partner a very happy life, but if you really want to adopt a kid… THINK about what kind of world your bringing the kid into… if you think kids who mock other kids over any slight difference won’t absolutely mock/bully your kid to the ends of the earth then maybe your just as closed off as me.

:slight_smile:

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No dude, I’m saying that kids today are more accepting of gays than kids of earlier generations. Kids will always tease one another, but that is more of a general issue that will exist whether or not they have gay parents.

My point was that you’re assuming 2 men need to “pose as Mother and Father” in order to be effective parents. The research on children raised by gay parents says otherwise…they actually turn out normal on measures of psychological/emotional health compared to kids raised by a man and woman. And they are no more likely to be gay themselves than are kids raised by straight parents.

Anyway, the question isn’t whether kids raised by gay parents are as well adjusted as kids raised by straight parents. It’s whether kids raised by gay parents are as well adjusted as kids raised in a foster care facility. Whether or not you feel gays can be maximally effective as parents, don’t you think the kids would still be better off in a loving home?

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[quote]forlife wrote:
No dude, I’m saying that kids today are more accepting of gays than kids of earlier generations. Kids will always tease one another, but that is more of a general issue that will exist whether or not they have gay parents.

My point was that you’re assuming 2 men need to “pose as Mother and Father” in order to be effective parents. The research on children raised by gay parents says otherwise…they actually turn out normal on measures of psychological/emotional health compared to kids raised by a man and woman. And they are no more likely to be gay themselves than are kids raised by straight parents.

Anyway, the question isn’t whether kids raised by gay parents are as well adjusted as kids raised by straight parents. It’s whether kids raised by gay parents are as well adjusted as kids raised in a foster care facility. Whether or not you feel gays can be maximally effective as parents, don’t you think the kids would still be better off in a loving home?[/quote]

Well from where it was that wouldnt be hard now would it !

As for it being a general issue, it would be a MAJOR issue for the KID who is meant to be the No. 1 concern in all this. There are areas in England where if there is the slightest thing off with you or your appearance you will get some hard time, i would presume those areas exist in Texas ? Home of the religious zealots from what i can see, do you expect it NOT to be hard on “your” kid ?

And who did the research on what kids ? Is there a country which legalised this ? If they did it in gay friendly suburbs in schools friendly towards that sort of thing, then thats not really a true indicator now is it ? Put the couple in a poor neighborhood and see how they get on :slight_smile:

As for no more likely to be gay, how can you say that… if you were brought up in an enviorment with no womanly influence how the hell would you know how to deal with women ?

You would go with what you know, as most humans do and if they are brought up with the sense that 2 men together is as normal as 2 women then i would put it to you they would go the 2 men route as it’s what they know best.

Kids are THE most impressionable age group in existance, they follow what they see people doing, to debate that is as futile s saying the sun wont come up in the morning.

As i said before i spent years in an orphanage and then put into foster care, i wont lie i lucked out with my lot, i know some people who had a terrible time that i wont lie about it isn’t always good, but i could name 1,000’s of parents with their own blood related child that were WORSE parents… so just limiting it to foster care is not cool. Your just playing on the foster care is EVIL, “we” can offer so much more.

That i disagree with for the reasons outlined.

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[quote]300andabove wrote:
Well from where it was that wouldnt be hard now would it !

As for it being a general issue, it would be a MAJOR issue for the KID who is meant to be the No. 1 concern in all this. There are areas in England where if there is the slightest thing off with you or your appearance you will get some hard time, i would presume those areas exist in Texas ? Home of the religious zealots from what i can see, do you expect it NOT to be hard on “your” kid ?

And who did the research on what kids ? Is there a country which legalised this ? If they did it in gay friendly suburbs in schools friendly towards that sort of thing, then thats not really a true indicator now is it ? Put the couple in a poor neighborhood and see how they get on :slight_smile:

As for no more likely to be gay, how can you say that… if you were brought up in an enviorment with no womanly influence how the hell would you know how to deal with women ?

You would go with what you know, as most humans do and if they are brought up with the sense that 2 men together is as normal as 2 women then i would put it to you they would go the 2 men route as it’s what they know best.

Kids are THE most impressionable age group in existance, they follow what they see people doing, to debate that is as futile s saying the sun wont come up in the morning.

As i said before i spent years in an orphanage and then put into foster care, i wont lie i lucked out with my lot, i know some people who had a terrible time that i wont lie about it isn’t always good, but i could name 1,000’s of parents with their own blood related child that were WORSE parents… so just limiting it to foster care is not cool. Your just playing on the foster care is EVIL, “we” can offer so much more.

That i disagree with for the reasons outlined.
[/quote]

The medical and mental health organizations have conducted numerous studies on children of lesbians and children of gay men, and have concluded that these children are equal on measures of psychological/emotional health compared to children raised by straight parents.

You don’t understand sexual orientation, if you think that people can just choose to be straight or gay. Believe me, I tried to be straight for decades and it was impossible to change my orientation. And a heterosexual could not magically become homosexual just because his parents were gay. The research shows that children raised by gay parents are no more likely to be gay than children raised by straight parents.

I don’t think foster care is evil, I just think that children raised in a loving home are more likely to be better adjusted overall.

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[quote]forlife wrote:

Believe me, I tried to be straight for decades and it was impossible to change my orientation. [/quote]

But you admittedly had sexual relations with your (female) wife and have two children by her. I will suggest, as I have in the past, that this would not be possible had you not been aroused. It’s really a simple matter isn’t it?

Furthermore, I submit to you that your standard run of the mill heterosexual male would absolutely not be able to have sex with another male if becoming aroused were a prerequisite.

Therefore, your entire “orientation” argument is nothing but a distraction. Of course I don’t credit you with creating this distraction, just perpetuating it.

In reality most homosexual men are in fact bisexual as over 85% of them have had and continue to have sex with women as they troll for other men.

That would depend on the sort of “loving” home that you’re talking about. I would much rather see a child brought up in a foster home with a traditional male/female couple as their parents.

As I’ve said in the past and will no doubt repeat many times on this board: No one knows how or why a person becomes a homosexual. It only makes good sense to NOT place young impressionable children in a home where they can be influenced in the wrong direction. As the CDC statistics demonstrate a life of physical and emotional pain await many who choose to live a homosexual life style.

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Apparently, the spartans weren’t your average “run of the mill male” but we’ve already been down that road, haven’t we?

Despite your fears of children being “influenced in the wrong direction”, statistically children raised by gay parents are no more likely to be gay themselves than are children raised by straight parents.

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[quote]forlife wrote:
Apparently, the spartans weren’t your average “run of the mill male”:

But we’ve already been down that road, haven’t we?

Despite your fears of children being “influenced in the wrong direction”, statistically children raised by gay parents are no more likely to be gay themselves than are children raised by straight parents.[/quote]

could you post links to all these studies you quote from?

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I’ve posted numerous references in other threads, but here is a primer from the American Academy of Pediatrics:

http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;109/2/341?maxtoshow=&HITS=&hits=&RESULTFORMAT=&searchid=1149709147203_1835]

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Nice post Zeb

:slight_smile: