Saddam's Terror Training Camps

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

The Mage wrote:
Yes the Weekly Standard is a conservative magazine, but it would have been better to compare it to The Nation, a legitimate liberal magazine.

JustTheFacts wrote:

Correction, the Weekly Standard is a neoconservative magazine.

The editor of the Weekly Standard (William Kristol) is chairman and co-founder of the Project for the New American Century

Don’t forget, he’s also son of one of the original scary neo-cons, Irving Kristol.

And he’s a Jew too… Scary stuff. Please post an article about some Israeli spy ring now.
[/quote]

To put it politely – this story is more complete crap coming from the very same assholes who got it COMPLETELY WRONG in the first place.

Of course it should come as no surprise the Weekly Standard is even underwritten and subsidized by Rupert Murdoch.

I’ll believe something about Iraq when they drop one of these right wing motherfuckers like O’Reilly, Kristol, Hannity, Coulter into the center of Baghdad for a week of live broadcasts.

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[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

Criticizing the implementation of Iraq is one thing, but I find all the simplistic arguments that hold it as a “known fact” the president lied, and that he just knew Iraq had no WMD and that they had no ties to terrorists, but he just wanted to get Saddam for his Daddy (or some other such tripe) amazingly inane.

Professor X wrote:

Who has said this? In all truth, I don’t think it was much at all about Bush knowing they had no WMD…but much more like, “screw it, we have some info that they probably have them so let’s go to war!!!”. The crowd cheers, a few people throw up big foam fingers with “we are #1” written on it, we moon the UN and yell out, “kiss my ass biatches!”, and head on in to war. As the dust settles and we find no WMDs, don’t find Osama and more and more of our men get killed, the public begins FINALLY saying, “wait a second, I think we might have gone in based on emotion more than actual proof and I would really like to have my dad, husband, mother, sister, son, daughter back at home instead of in Iraq for another year”.[/quote]

No one in this particular thread made that particular argument, but I believe we’ve both seen it many times before around here.

At any rate, your description is definitely different from mine - I don’t think the decision was made rashly. And, as a side note, I don’t think we should forget that the onus was on Hussein to prove he didn’t have WMD anymore, given it was established he had them previously – and I think it’s fairly well established that he wanted everyone, including his own generals, to believe that he still had them. That fact should be considered when thinking about how the decision was weighed.

Anyway, we’ve probably discussed this to death at this point. I don’t want to turn this into another WMD thread…

[quote]The Mage wrote:

This is the first? Really? We have been debating this here since before the war. This is not the only information linking Saddam to terrorists. Zarkowi is not just the terrorist who is running the attacks in Iraq. He didn’t just suddenly pop over the boarder after the war. He has actually attacked us before the war, and was being protected by Saddam. He has went to Iraq before for medical procedures.

That is why this is so important. That is the big argument, as even stated in that article, that Saddam and Al-Qaeda would never work together. Yet where is the proof that they didn?t?

[/quote]

Wow letting carlos the jackal stay in your country to get a vascectomy big deal. It doesnt surprise me at all that they would meet,k they are bireds of a feather so to speak. They both hate the U.S.,k but sadaam hasnt been conclusively shown to deal with the terrorists any more than entertaining their meetings.

And yes I do agree that this is the big arguement, where one side wants to look at this inconclusive evidence and just go over and fight some bad guys the other wants to wait and see because the consequences of acting to soon may make things worse. Like i said in my earlier post, i remember the night when it was announced that we fired the missles i was actually glad that they tried to shoot a few @ saddam. Then i got worried that the consequences of this wouldnt be good that their would be an insurgency that this would rile the arabs up ect. Everybody told me that it " has to be done " well if you arent doing things rationally for a good reason then you may mess things up in the long run and horribly.

The only good thing about this war IMO is that it might make future terrorists more leery of fvcking with the US if they know we are so gung-ho but sadaam was small potatos. We are losing our credibility to enable us to deal effectively, with multi-national support, for biggr fish like Iran.

Why doesnt everyone stop with the bullshit excuses. You do seem to be the owners of a working brain when it comes to other topics like “cardio for fatloss”.
Why do you all lose half of your IQ’s when you start talking about Iraq?
Freedom for Iraq?..a joke.
Weapons of mass destruction? A bigger joke.
Stopping terrorist activities? Just stupid.
Oil, Israel and wartime profiteering?

Duh.

[quote]grey wrote:
Why doesnt everyone stop with the bullshit excuses. You do seem to be the owners of a working brain when it comes to other topics like “cardio for fatloss”.
Why do you all lose half of your IQ’s when you start talking about Iraq?
Freedom for Iraq?..a joke.
Weapons of mass destruction? A bigger joke.
Stopping terrorist activities? Just stupid.
Oil, Israel and wartime profiteering?

Duh.[/quote]

…don’t forget the Rapture ; )

When peace equals failure.

[quote]
The Mage wrote:
There are a lot of people attempting to discredit the links instead of looking deeper.

Professor X wrote:
Like that doesn’t happen anytime a source is posted that is NOT Fox News? Please. All media everywhere is branded as Liberal if it disagrees with what conservatives want to hear and its content is immediately thrown out the window based on the source unless it is also supported by “conservative media”. Please don’t tell me you haven’t noticed this here. How convenient that when the tables are turned, the cry is, “look deeper at the content!!”.[/quote]

There is a difference between a legitimate news source, and a propaganda machine. There is also a difference between a news article, analysis, and opinion. All of these must be taken into account.

Citing information from WhyIHateBush.com or BushIsTheDevil.com is not as credible as citing information from ABC, NBC, CBS, or FOX. Or any of the other news organizations.

If a person is just going to dismiss something out of hand without giving it a fair shake when it is from such a legitimate organization then they need a true reason why, not just, “Oh, that’s from (Insert name here).”

There are plenty of posts that I have not made, or did not make them as strongly just because I cannot find corroborating information from real news sources. There are a lot of people here who do not do that.

But you also have to see the spin in certain articles based on their political position. The article I posted was a legitimate news organization, and yes a conservative one. Is there bias there? Yes. I never said there wasn’t. I believe it is impossible for a person to be unbiased in reporting the news, and the more people act like they are unbiased the more they are fooling themselves.

Also I have found people in the past posting an opinion piece as proof of their position, without any facts in those opinion pieces.

Anyone here should know that posting links from a political party, a blog, or some attack website will never be excepted. Regardless of what side they are on. Although that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t post it. It just means it is not of the standard needed for most of the arguments here.

To discount something, you need better then, “Well I just don’t believe it.” Great argument. Can I use that? (It was used above by another person.)

You want a real argument against this article? The documents are not out yet, and the information is hearsay. Simple enough? No going around the issue, and trying to jump over hoops attempting to discredit not just the article, but the whole freaking magazine.

Regardless I believe information will be coming out soon, and all of our discussions will become meaningless.

[quote]The Mage wrote:
There is a difference between a legitimate news source, and a propaganda machine. There is also a difference between a news article, analysis, and opinion. All of these must be taken into account.

Citing information from WhyIHateBush.com or BushIsTheDevil.com is not as credible as citing information from ABC, NBC, CBS, or FOX. Or any of the other news organizations.

If a person is just going to dismiss something out of hand without giving it a fair shake when it is from such a legitimate organization then they need a true reason why, not just, “Oh, that’s from (Insert name here).”
[/quote]

Wait, let me think, why shouldn’t we trust this story?

Big Story: Neocons Leak Neocon Memo, Then Report On It
November 16, 2003
Today, Fox News anchors are repeatedly mentioning the blockbuster story “proving” a long-time link between Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

The leak was made to a truly unbiased source, the Weekly Standard. The neocon magazine titles the article on the “leaked” memo, “Case Closed.”
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/378fmxyz.asp

The memo is from another unbiased source: Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas J. Feith, one of the most hard-core neoconservatives at the Pentagon.

At one point, a Fox reporter referred to the Weekly Standard as having “close ties to the White House.” You would think that they might mention that Fox and the Weekly Standard are both owned by Rupert Murdoch. Current and retired intel officers have identified the work of Feith’s Office of Special Plans as a key component of the exaggerated and manipulated intelligence produced on Iraq. Feith himself has been accused of being behind previous leaks of “raw intelligence.”

I wonder who “leaked” this memo to the Weekly Standard?

UPDATE: The Dept. of Defense has issued a news release dismissing the report.
http://www.antiwar.com/comment/feith1.html

DoD Statement on News Reports of Al Qaeda and Iraq Connections
November 15, 2003
News reports that the Defense Department recently confirmed new information with respect to contacts between al Qaeda and Iraq in a letter to the Senate Intelligence Committee are inaccurate.

Will Vicious Dems pay for driving Alito’s wife to tears?

Perfect examples of why Fox and the Weekly Standard are not so fair and balanced.

Alito’s Wife Cries at Confirmation Hearing
The Associated Press
January 12, 2006

WASHINGTON – Martha-Ann Bomgardner left her husband’s confirmation hearings in tears, returning not long after. The episode elicited sympathy for her from senators of both parties _ and instant finger-pointing.

After sitting behind Samuel Alito for two days of intense questioning at his Supreme Court confirmation hearing, she left the room during questioning of her husband by Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

And Graham was trying to vouch for him.

Mimicking questions from Democrats, Graham asked Alito: “Are you really a closet bigot?”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/12/AR2006011200124_pf.html

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Will Vicious Dems pay for driving Alito’s wife to tears?

Perfect examples of why Fox and the Weekly Standard are not so fair and balanced.

Alito’s Wife Cries at Confirmation Hearing
The Associated Press
January 12, 2006

WASHINGTON – Martha-Ann Bomgardner left her husband’s confirmation hearings in tears, returning not long after. The episode elicited sympathy for her from senators of both parties _ and instant finger-pointing.

After sitting behind Samuel Alito for two days of intense questioning at his Supreme Court confirmation hearing, she left the room during questioning of her husband by Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

And Graham was trying to vouch for him.

Mimicking questions from Democrats, Graham asked Alito: “Are you really a closet bigot?”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/12/AR2006011200124_pf.html[/quote]

Very good post.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
JustTheFacts wrote:
Will Vicious Dems pay for driving Alito’s wife to tears?

Perfect examples of why Fox and the Weekly Standard are not so fair and balanced.

Alito’s Wife Cries at Confirmation Hearing
The Associated Press
January 12, 2006

WASHINGTON – Martha-Ann Bomgardner left her husband’s confirmation hearings in tears, returning not long after. The episode elicited sympathy for her from senators of both parties _ and instant finger-pointing.

After sitting behind Samuel Alito for two days of intense questioning at his Supreme Court confirmation hearing, she left the room during questioning of her husband by Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

And Graham was trying to vouch for him.

Mimicking questions from Democrats, Graham asked Alito: “Are you really a closet bigot?”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/12/AR2006011200124_pf.html

Very good post.[/quote]

Graham makes her cry (and coached Alito) and Dems take the blame, and the so-called liberal media swallows the whole lie. Hilarious.

This is in no way excusing the McCarthy like tactics of the idiot left on the committee (you know - “Gin- Nosed Ted”, “Is-This-Mike-On Biden”, et al).

But I have to say that Linsay Graham should be removed from office and sent to a Federal “Pound Me In The Ass” Prison. He has sold his soul to the devil, and is an embarrassment to anyone that has ever pulled a republican lever. He is almost as bad as Specter and Snow.

[quote]
JustTheFacts wrote:
Will Vicious Dems pay for driving Alito’s wife to tears?

Perfect examples of why Fox and the Weekly Standard are not so fair and balanced.

Alito’s Wife Cries at Confirmation Hearing
The Associated Press
January 12, 2006

WASHINGTON – Martha-Ann Bomgardner left her husband’s confirmation hearings in tears, returning not long after. The episode elicited sympathy for her from senators of both parties _ and instant finger-pointing.

After sitting behind Samuel Alito for two days of intense questioning at his Supreme Court confirmation hearing, she left the room during questioning of her husband by Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

And Graham was trying to vouch for him.

Mimicking questions from Democrats, Graham asked Alito: “Are you really a closet bigot?”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/12/AR2006011200124_pf.html

Professor X wrote:

Very good post.[/quote]

Yeah, provided you don’t think about it too hard.

Firstly, Cavuto is a talk show, not a news show – ergo, of course it’s going to be biased. An opinion is a bias. He gives editorials, and says, “This is my opinion.” It’s a pretty obvious distinction.

Secondly, let’s think about cause here for a moment. Do you really think that Lindsay Graham’s question is what caused Mrs. Alito to cry? Without the background “questioning” by Kennedy, Schumer et al on the whole retarded CAP issue, do you think Mrs. Alito would have cried at Graham’s question (which was Graham’s attempt to bring to the foreground the implications that Schumer, Kennedy et al were trying to get at in their soliloquoies/questions)?

To quote from Todd Zywicki on the CAP question:

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2006_01_08-2006_01_14.shtml#1137095315

[i]…There appear to be two possible explanations. [On the] One hand, it may be to simply ask Alito about the organizations to which he belonged and to ascertain his views today. Or, on the other hand, to attempt to smear Judge Alito by engaging in guilt by association and innuendo to suggest that he is racist, sexist, elitist, gay-basher, as suggested in the article in the Washington Times today (which I noted this morning).

In deciding which of these two competing explanations is more plausible, one would expect to see very different approaches to the questioning by Senator Kennedy. If the purpose was simply to establish whether Alito had a meaningful association with the organization and what his views are today, then it seems to me that the questions that were asked would focus on those points. If this was the purpose, I cannot see why there would be any need to go into great detail in expostulating the views of other individuals associated with the organization, such as reading inflammatory and retrograde articles written in the organization’s magazine. It seems to me that dragging out these long quotes would be utterly irrelevant to establishing the questions of Alito’s relationship to the group, why he joined it, and what his views are today.

If, by contrast, the primary purpose of the inquiry is to cast aspersions and to imply that Alito was (and perhaps is) a racist, sexist bigot, then all of the hoary details would not only be relevant, but would be prominently featured as statements buried in the “questions.”[/i]

I think anyone paying attention at the hearings knows along which lines the “questions” went.

[quote]100meters wrote:

Graham makes her cry (and coached Alito) and Dems take the blame, and the so-called liberal media swallows the whole lie. Hilarious.[/quote]

On cause, see my post immediately above.

On your parenthetical, do you really think Alito needed to be coached by Graham? If so, are you kidding me?

I wish that candidates weren’t in the position of having to sit there and take such crap, without being able to say what they are probably thinking.

What could Alito have been thinking to be sitting there, and essentially be lectured on ethics by Ted Kennedy.

Ted Kennedy giving advice on ethics is like Andrea Yates giving advice on parenting.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

Yeah, provided you don’t think about it too hard.

Firstly, Cavuto is a talk show, not a news show – ergo, of course it’s going to be biased. An opinion is a bias. He gives editorials, and says, “This is my opinion.” It’s a pretty obvious distinction.[/quote]

But, B, we’ve even seen in this forum how some take the word of these “editorialists” as actual fact. You may not want that to be the case, and making the point that it isn’t “real news” sure helps your point, but it isn’t reality and most people do NOT think for themselves. Are you serious? This doesn’t have to be told to you because I can see how you think through your posts. So why pretend? I mean, sniff, shouldn’t we be past this in our sob relationship?!

[quote]grey wrote:
Why doesnt everyone stop with the bullshit excuses. You do seem to be the owners of a working brain when it comes to other topics like “cardio for fatloss”.[/quote]

I think the exact same observation should be made for the ABB/anti-war/pro-terrorist camp as well. In all honesty, they are the true ‘excuse makers’.

Why does the ABB/anti-war/pro-terrorist clan lose all of their IQ’s when trying to indict Bush for ‘impeachable crimes’?

11 million Iraqis exercising their most basic of freedoms is hardly a joke. The right to self-determination was only a fantasy until Hussein was deposed. Please - show me the humor. I’d like facts, and not some pseudo intellectual assumptions that are little more than melodic flatulance.

Tell me, humerous one, where the fuck were you and your “Bush Lied People Died” buddies when the run up to war began? No one heard a fucking peep about there being no WMD’s. Playing Monday morning QB is for pussies. The only definitive way to know for sure that there were, or were not WMD’s was to go in and find out first hand. Once again - please show mw the humor using something even remotely resembling a fact.

I love hoew you accuse the pro-war/pro-Bush/anti-terrorist crowd of dropping their Iq’s by half when discussing these subjects, yet you feel that your opinion is intellectually superior? Please - you are as much - if not more - partisan hack as anyone you are accusing. I think they call that hypocrisy, but since I am only using half my Iq - I’ll defer that to someone else.

[quote] Oil, Israel and wartime profiteering?

Duh.[/quote]

Some proof would be nice. You have none. Why does that not suprise me?

[quote]Professor X wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:

Yeah, provided you don’t think about it too hard.

Firstly, Cavuto is a talk show, not a news show – ergo, of course it’s going to be biased. An opinion is a bias. He gives editorials, and says, “This is my opinion.” It’s a pretty obvious distinction.

But, B, we’ve even seen in this forum how some take the word of these “editorialists” as actual fact. You may not want that to be the case, and making the point that it isn’t “real news” sure helps your point, but it isn’t reality and most people do NOT think for themselves. Are you serious? This doesn’t have to be told to you because I can see how you think through your posts. So why pretend? I mean, sniff, shouldn’t we be past this in our sob relationship?![/quote]

I just happened to catch that segment yesterday. The way JTF is reporting it makes it sound as if it was indeed a news story. It was an opinion piece with two panelists and Cavuto that were discussing the abhorant behavior of the idiot left. I would invite you to actually watch/listen to the confirmation hearings before believing a goddamned thing JTF has to report.

If you think it was just Graham doing the talking - you are sadly mistaken. 100M is a slick propaganda machine, and JTF is…well… JTF. To believe anything he has to say is pretty much an admission of owning tin-foil hats, and swastika lapel pins.

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Professor X wrote:
BostonBarrister wrote:

Yeah, provided you don’t think about it too hard.

Firstly, Cavuto is a talk show, not a news show – ergo, of course it’s going to be biased. An opinion is a bias. He gives editorials, and says, “This is my opinion.” It’s a pretty obvious distinction.

But, B, we’ve even seen in this forum how some take the word of these “editorialists” as actual fact. You may not want that to be the case, and making the point that it isn’t “real news” sure helps your point, but it isn’t reality and most people do NOT think for themselves. Are you serious? This doesn’t have to be told to you because I can see how you think through your posts. So why pretend? I mean, sniff, shouldn’t we be past this in our sob relationship?!

I just happened to catch that segment yesterday. The way JTF is reporting it makes it sound as if it was indeed a news story. It was an opinion piece with two panelists and Cavuto that were discussing the abhorant behavior of the idiot left. I would invite you to actually watch/listen to the confirmation hearings before believing a goddamned thing JTF has to report.

If you think it was just Graham doing the talking - you are sadly mistaken. 100M is a slick propaganda machine, and JTF is…well… JTF. To believe anything he has to say is pretty much an admission of owning tin-foil hats, and swastika lapel pins. [/quote]

I admit I haven’t caught ANY news lately until long after shit happens, however, if the article is right, what is he wrong about?

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

Yeah, provided you don’t think about it too hard.

Firstly, Cavuto is a talk show, not a news show – ergo, of course it’s going to be biased. An opinion is a bias. He gives editorials, and says, “This is my opinion.” It’s a pretty obvious distinction.

Professor X wrote:

But, B, we’ve even seen in this forum how some take the word of these “editorialists” as actual fact. You may not want that to be the case, and making the point that it isn’t “real news” sure helps your point, but it isn’t reality and most people do NOT think for themselves. Are you serious? This doesn’t have to be told to you because I can see how you think through your posts. So why pretend? I mean, sniff, shouldn’t we be past this in our sob relationship?![/quote]

Prof,

I won’t deny that some folks will use opinion pieces as their sources of news. However, the way you set it up sets the onus on the opinion providers to be unbiased. The responsibility is on the audience - assuming the writers/TV talking heads do their part.

As writers/TV talking heads, the only thing the providers of the info are charged with doing is letting you know what they’re providing: straight news, or opinion? If it’s straight news, and they’re claiming to be unbiased, then they need to try to provide unslanted news. If they’re claiming to be balanced on contested issues (different from unbiased), they should present both sides. If it’s opinion, they can slant all they want – though the good ones will make good, sound arguments, which necessarily means taking on the strongest points on the other side.

Assuming the providers do that, the responsibility is then on the audience to be smart consumers. If someone wants to get all of his information from one extremely biased source, that’s his choice, but he’s going to end up looking silly if he gets into a discussion with someone well informed. It’s one of those responsibilities that balances our freedoms. =-)

The Kurds that died by Saddams WMD’s don’t think this joke is particularly funny.