So if Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia and Chile, go ans whack Kissinger in his New York apartment with stealth helicopters…would that be okay to?
They have formal extradition papers on him for his role in genocide during the dirty war…the man is connected with perhaps 300,000 plus state murders.
Would that be okay with you guys if they did that?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
It indicates whether or not we crossed the line, from the perspective of international law.[/quote]
No, it doesn’t. The UN doesn’t adjudicate that.
[/quote]
You have to know by now that forlife has an aversion to the truth.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
You have to know by now that forlife has an aversion to the truth.[/quote]
Well, I actually forgive Forlife for not knowing much about this issue - when all you read are white papers from the American Psychological Association, there’s little time left to read about and consider foreign policy.
If the UNSC wanted to bring a condemndation of our venture into Pakistan, oh it could - but setting aside for a second that it has no legal force, it would be deep-sixed by any one of the permanent members in record time.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]byukid wrote:
ZEB, I don’t get it- in our man hunt for Osama there have been more american soldiers killed (not to mention iraqi and afghani citizens) than were killed on 9/11. His attack succeeded in killing far more than just the people who died that day, not to mention the continued loss of freedom resulting from that attack. We played into his hand, in effect.[/quote]
Is this the kind of intellect that Brigham Young University is producing?
Holy shit, the US educational system truly sucks and that apparently includes our large private universities.
I’m flabbergasted at the amount of stupidity I see on this thread.[/quote]
And yet his post is still factually correct; all of it. It’s a hard truth to accept, but our over seas adventures have made us into a band of fools.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]byukid wrote:
ZEB, I don’t get it- in our man hunt for Osama there have been more american soldiers killed (not to mention iraqi and afghani citizens) than were killed on 9/11. His attack succeeded in killing far more than just the people who died that day, not to mention the continued loss of freedom resulting from that attack. We played into his hand, in effect.[/quote]
Is this the kind of intellect that Brigham Young University is producing?
Holy shit, the US educational system truly sucks and that apparently includes our large private universities.
I’m flabbergasted at the amount of stupidity I see on this thread.[/quote]
And yet his post is still factually correct; all of it. It’s a hard truth to accept, but our over seas adventures have made us into a band of fools.
[/quote]
It’s one of those rare times that I disagree with you my friend.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]byukid wrote:
ZEB, I don’t get it- in our man hunt for Osama there have been more american soldiers killed (not to mention iraqi and afghani citizens) than were killed on 9/11. His attack succeeded in killing far more than just the people who died that day, not to mention the continued loss of freedom resulting from that attack. We played into his hand, in effect.[/quote]
Is this the kind of intellect that Brigham Young University is producing?
Holy shit, the US educational system truly sucks and that apparently includes our large private universities.
I’m flabbergasted at the amount of stupidity I see on this thread.[/quote]
And yet his post is still factually correct; all of it. It’s a hard truth to accept, but our over seas adventures have made us into a band of fools.
[/quote]
It’s one of those rare times that I disagree with you my friend.[/quote]
Ahh, well, disagreement can be good as well on occasion.
I do believe though that our foreign policy has been ill conceived and foolishly implemented for a very long time. I would like to see the US pull out of the UN, remove our troops from the many, many countries of the world, and patrol the seas with a navy such as the world has never seen. We would be well served to try and engage the world with more commerce, science, and R&D, instead of war for other other peoples good whether they want it or not.
I don’t agree with the likes of Ryan P. McCarter in that the US is some terrorist organization or anything like that, but neither do I entertain notions that the US has been a dove, bringing only light and peace unto the world either. I would like to see us follow the advice of Jefferson.
“Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none. -Thomas Jefferson”
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
So if Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia and Chile, go ans whack Kissinger in his New York apartment with stealth helicopters…would that be okay to?
They have formal extradition papers on him for his role in genocide during the dirty war…the man is connected with perhaps 300,000 plus state murders.
Would that be okay with you guys if they did that?
[/quote]
Connected with? So by that logic, because FDR and Churchill supported/funded the Soviet Union after Barbarossa they are ‘connected with’ the Red Army/Soviet murders of millions of people post June '41? Is that how this stuff works? And like when Ariel Sharon massacred thousands of Lebanese only he didn’t because the Lebanese did? Same thing right?
And you’re equating OBL’s killing with some hypothetical assassination of an 88-year-old Henry Kissinger? Are you just playing silly buggers or are you really insane?
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
So if Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia and Chile, go ans whack Kissinger in his New York apartment with stealth helicopters…would that be okay to?
They have formal extradition papers on him for his role in genocide during the dirty war…the man is connected with perhaps 300,000 plus state murders.
Would that be okay with you guys if they did that?
[/quote]
Connected with? So by that logic, because FDR and Churchill supported/funded the Soviet Union after Barbarossa they are ‘connected with’ the Red Army/Soviet murders of millions of people post June '41? Is that how this stuff works? And like when Ariel Sharon massacred thousands of Lebanese only he didn’t because the Lebanese did? Same thing right?
And you’re equating OBL’s killing with some hypothetical assassination of an 88-year-old Henry Kissinger? Are you just playing silly buggers or are you really insane?
[/quote]
Actually the connection is direct.
Read up; School of the Americas, Dirty War and Kissinger, and then come back.
The US military-political machine is at most directly indicated, and the very least linked in various assassinations, coups of democratic governments and the destruction of human rights all throughout Latin America. The CIA gave material, financial, and military support to Right Wing Latin American dictators to be and in power. The establishment then had the army instruct their officers in torture and oppression. The State Department didn’t just give a green light but actually encouraged state sponsored killing in Argentina, as well as elsewhere. Some of it was subtle and at other times implicit.
My family is in the USA because of this, my Grandfather was TRAINED in School of the Americas in Panama in ‘anti-insurgency’ and ‘communist prevention’ tactics.
This is not ‘leftist conspiracy’ this is documented history. Learn it, so it doesn’t happen again, least not in your country.
A dozen countries some of them Western European powers have extradition papers on Kissinger for trial, he had to flee during a visit to the EU because of it.
TO seal the deal, I’ll bet you bottom dollar the trail between Kissinger and South American genocide is far more documented and implicit than the trail between Osama and the 9/11 attacks.
Welcome to the real world flatlander, it’s not what Fox News told ya, this shit is a lot more unjust and fucked up than your jingo-ist ass ever thought…maybe just, maybe…the USA is also the bad guy? How could it be!!!
Latin America was to the US, as Eastern Europe was to the Soviet Union…perhpas worse, because at least the Soviets actually believed in their idealism, the USA blatantly disregarded what they were supposedly fighting for even in secret, and instead just made it about power and greed.
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
So if Argentina, Brazil, Bolivia and Chile, go ans whack Kissinger in his New York apartment with stealth helicopters…would that be okay to?
They have formal extradition papers on him for his role in genocide during the dirty war…the man is connected with perhaps 300,000 plus state murders.
Would that be okay with you guys if they did that?
[/quote]
Connected with? So by that logic, because FDR and Churchill supported/funded the Soviet Union after Barbarossa they are ‘connected with’ the Red Army/Soviet murders of millions of people post June '41? Is that how this stuff works? And like when Ariel Sharon massacred thousands of Lebanese only he didn’t because the Lebanese did? Same thing right?
And you’re equating OBL’s killing with some hypothetical assassination of an 88-year-old Henry Kissinger? Are you just playing silly buggers or are you really insane?
[/quote]
Actually the connection is direct.
Read up; School of the Americas, Dirty War and Kissinger, and then come back.
The CIA gave material, financial, and military support to Right Wing Latin American dictators to be and in power, then had the army instruct their officers in torture and oppression. The State Department didn’t just give a green light but actually encouraged state sponsored killing in Argentina, as well as elsewhere. Some of it was subtle and at other times implicit.
My family is in the USA because of this, my Grandfather was TRAINED in School of the Americas in Panama in ‘anti-insurgency’ and ‘communist prevention’ tactics.
This is not ‘leftist conspiracy’ this is documented history. Learn it, so it doesn’t happen again, least not in your country.
A dozen countries some of them Western European powers have extradition papers on Kissinger for trial, he had to flee during a visit to the EU because of it.
TO seal the deal, I’ll bet you bottom dollar the trail between Kissinger and South American genocide is far more documented and implicit than the trail between Osama and the 9/11 attacks.
Welcome to the real world flatlander, it’s not what Fox News told ya, this shit is a lot more unjust and fucked up than your jingo-ist ass ever thought…maybe just, maybe…the USA is also the bad guy? How could it be!!!
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB73/[/quote]
I don’t need to read up on Kissinger/CIA and US foreign policy in Latin America. And no, I’m not concerned about the US aiding a reactionary military junta in their attempt to overthrow a Socialist/Marxist government in my country. I think I’ll leave this one here.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I don’t need to read up on Kissinger/CIA and US foreign policy in Latin America. And no, I’m not concerned about the US aiding a reactionary military junta in their attempt to overthrow a Socialist/Marxist government in my country. I think I’ll leave this one here.[/quote]
Well when your Brother in law disappears in Socialist America for being organized and opposed to big statism and loss of his constitutional rights, when they use the patriot act to kick in your door and call you a terrorist because you have a different opinion than the monolithic government…don’t tell me I didn’t tell you so. Karma is a bitch.
My Uncle, who was married after the crazy shyt, had his toes and ankle smashed with a hammer for making a vote Banzer didn’t agree with, when he was President of the Banker’s Union of Bolivia. Mind you, my Uncle wasn’t even a leftist he was a practicing Catholic, who favored Centrist policy, non-allegience with USSR or USA and obviously organized labor.
They came for him despite that, and he crawled out with his life, but has a limp ever since.
It can happen here, and with the direction the government is going it is going…it probably will.
Open your eyes, you either suppose personal sovereignty, human rights, and civil freedom or you don’t. It’s not a matter of saying “Well since they’re Marxists…then…well they are not really humans so would deserve to die.” Don’t be an idiot, I bet half the people who die in the Dirty War were people like my Uncle.
Just wait till they come down on the guys who identify as Libertarian, and have a don’t tread on me flag…What will you think then?
[quote]Rohnyn wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
I don’t need to read up on Kissinger/CIA and US foreign policy in Latin America. And no, I’m not concerned about the US aiding a reactionary military junta in their attempt to overthrow a Socialist/Marxist government in my country. I think I’ll leave this one here.[/quote]
Well when your Brother in law disappears in Socialist America for being organized and opposed to big statism and loss of his constitutional rights, when they use the patriot act to kick in your door and call you a terrorist because you have a different opinion than the monolithic government…don’t tell me I didn’t tell you so. Karma is a bitch.
My Uncle, who was married after the crazy shyt, had his toes and ankle smashed with a hammer for making a vote Banzer didn’t agree with, when he was President of the Banker’s Union of Bolivia. Mind you, my Uncle wasn’t even a leftist he was a practicing Catholic, who favored Centrist policy, non-allegience with USSR or USA and obviously organized labor.
They came for him despite that, and he crawled out with his life, but has a limp ever since.
It can happen here, and with the direction the government is going it is going…it probably will.
Open your eyes, you either suppose personal sovereignty, human rights, and civil freedom or you don’t. It’s not a matter of saying “Well since they’re Marxists…then…well they are not really humans so would deserve to die.” Don’t be an idiot, I bet half the people who die in the Dirty War were people like my Uncle.
Just wait till they come down on the guys who identify as Libertarian, and have a don’t tread on me flag…What will you think then?[/quote]
Just reread this post. So it was Banzer eh? Did Kissinger personally authorise the use of the hammer? Or was it a case of; US and Brazilian ‘financial and advisory assistance’ to Banzer’s regime? See, subtleties such as these make all the difference.
Juan Jose Torres’ Socialist government was less than a year old and already falling apart. He appointed former Vice PM and Trotskyist Juan Lechin Oquendo as head of the Bolivian Workers’ Union and Lechin used strikes and Communist propaganda to undermine the state and attempt a Communist revolution with backing from the Soviet Union and Cuba. If Lechin/Trotsky faction had taken over in '71 there would almost undoubtably have been far more violence and terror from them.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]Otep wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Ok, this is a little more specific:
[quote]Two independent UN human rights experts Friday called on the
United States to provide further details regarding the operation that
resulted in the killing of al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden.
“In respect of the recent use of deadly force against Osama bin Laden,
the United States of America should disclose the supporting facts to
allow an assessment in terms of international human rights law
standards,” Christof Heyns, the independent UN expert dealing with
extrajudicial, summary or arbitrary executions and Martin Scheinin,
who deals with human rights and counter-terrorism said in a joint
statement.
Heyns and Scheinin, who work under the auspices of the UN Human Rights
Council, noted that in exceptional cases, deadly force may be used as
a measure of last resort and that terrorists should be dealt with as
criminals through legal processes.
The experts said it would be particularly important to know if the
U.S. operation allowed an effort to capture Bin Laden.
“It may well be that the questions that are being asked about the
operation could be answered, but it is important to get this into the
open,” he said in the statement issued in Geneva.
“Actions taken by states in combating terrorism, especially in high
profile cases, set precedents for the way in which the right to life
will be treated in future instances,” they added.
Meanwhile, UN spokesman Farhan Haq told reporters here Friday that the
United Nations headquarters in New York “expects all counter-terrorism
operations to be conducted in conformity with international law.”
[/quote]
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english2010/world/2011-05/07/c_13862844.htm[/quote]
Xinhua?
‘There is no Truth in Pravda…’[/quote]
Pravda in Russian means “truth”, but I suppose that’s the irony of the observation 
What is the translation for “Fox News”?
[/quote]
Near as I can tell? New York Times. When I traveled, all medias from the US got lumped together by the people I talked to.