Ron Paul - A Tale of Two Speeches

Wrong again. This is what I said in its entirety:

"Ironically, capitalism destroys many small-scale operations like this. "

Notice that I did not say all, but many. And this is certainly true, as the majority of small businesses fail within, what, the first five years or so? Do you now wish to argue against well-established statistics, so you can be right?

But really, you’re arguing against a point no one is making. You can’t refute my statement, so you seize on one thing and misrepresent it so that you can refute it. This is otherwise known as a strawman argument. However, even if I give you this to you, you can’t be right here without undermining the very foundation of capitalism. If the competition inherent in capitalism is not responsible for the ruin of a great many businesses, then what is its importance?

I have never once labeled it as “free market capitalism,” and I defy you to find one instance in which I have. It is capitalism, however, contrary to the ridiculous claims of people like Lifticus, who are always eager to further narrow the definition of capitalism to prevent criticism.

Oh! so now you’re interested in free-market capitalism! No, you don’t need to break out the dictionary, but you do need to be a little more consistent. I’m not very interested in what this forum has to say about the definition of capitalism, when they consider such widely varying regimes as Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, the Khmer Rouge, the European Union, the United States, and Venezuela, among others, to all be socialist, despite widely varying economic and political structures (and when most of them don’t have the first thing in common with socialism), yet they are so particular and exacting with regard to the definition of capitalism as to suggest that a having a central bank or a fiat currency precludes a society from being capitalist. The overwhelming generalizations on the one hand versus the exceedingly fine discernment on the other renders their opinions ridiculous, and obviously based purely on emotion and ideology, and not on any factual analysis.

Haha! The economic system had nothing to do with it! In that case, I’ll also give credit to the state for the steam engine, the power loom, the telephone, the airplane, all our medical advancements, the semiconductor and microprocessor, the Internet, and more all to the government, since after all, it’s “the common denominator” in each, not the economic system. In which case, continuing to advocate limited-government capitalism would be quite silly and inconsistent with your stated views.

Hopefully, you see how absurd your statement was. Especialy since, for instance, westward expansion and the subsequent killing of Native Americans was initiated by citizens despite government prohibitions, before it became government policy (and I’m sure the later reversal had nothing to do with the burgeoning economic growth the nation was experiencing). I’m sure none of our imperialist expansion has been in order to expand our markets. Nope, it’s all the evil government, so that…well, they’re evil, right!

Again, I never said anything about “free market” capitalism, except that it doens’t exist (in prior posts). No, you are a pussy because you’re obviously wrong, you know it, and you refuse to reexamine your conclusions. You’re scared to think. That’s why you’re a pussy. Hopefully you’ll get over this someday.

In the mean time, try to get quotes straight.

[quote]florelius wrote:
when marx talked about captalismen he ment the society of the capitalistclass, with the state, economy, culture etc. The difference beetwen a capitalist state and a socialist is this: the main purpose of the capitalist state is to protect the power and privat property of the capitalist class. the socialist states main purpose is to protect the power of the proletariat and to protect the collective property.
[/quote]

This is not capitalism.

Most people do not realize the word capitalism was coined by Marx merely to discredit it.

However you need to understand under a framework of the classical liberal economists capitalism is a system of property rights and exchange – they reject Marx’s assertion of class struggle. Capitalism makes no reference to government except to point out the consequences of its intervention in the market.

Capitalism rejects “collective property” because there is no collective.

Socialism must prop up the myth of the “collective” just so it can have a false to dichotomy to rail against. Without the collective socialism is just an other Utopist fantasy and it must utterly collapse.

http://images.t-nation.com/forum_images/c/2/c2d41_ORIG-internet_tough_guy_magazine.gif

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

No, you are a pussy because you’re obviously wrong, you know it, and you refuse to reexamine your conclusions.
[/quote]

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:Was she stopped by evil capitalism?

No, it was benevolent government!

[/quote]

Which was created by capitalism.

In this particular instance, though, if you want to give government the credit for looking out for her safety, then fine.
[/quote]

Capitalism created government?

Do tell![/quote]

Not government, the modern state. There was no need for it before the large-scale institution of private property, the protection of which is its primary function.
[/quote]

Wrong.

The modern state was created by anti-Monarchists thru “democratic” wars. The monarchs controlled the property and the early European revolutionaries did not like it. The state was only possible because of private property. All government before democracy were based completely on private property.

As far as your “large scale institution of private property” argument is concerned…how you say…?

False dilemma.

Without private property civilization as we know it would not exist.

There would be no universities, hospitals, museums, art, etc. Indeed, we would still be hunter-gatherers eking out an pitiful existence in the muck and mire.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

And the common denominator in each example is the state, which you cherish so much. Not the economic system.

Haha! The economic system had nothing to do with it! In that case, I’ll also give credit to the state for the steam engine, the power loom, the telephone, the airplane, all our medical advancements, the semiconductor and microprocessor, the Internet, and more all to the government, since after all, it’s “the common denominator” in each, not the economic system. In which case, continuing to advocate limited-government capitalism would be quite silly and inconsistent with your stated views.[/quote]

Why would individuals, who would normally interact with each other in cooperation in the market place, fight in wars, commit genocide, etc, without the state (a center of power with a monopoly of force) forcing them do so?

See, this goes back to your ignorance of a free market system, which is the same thing as capitalism.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:Was she stopped by evil capitalism?

No, it was benevolent government!

[/quote]

Which was created by capitalism.

In this particular instance, though, if you want to give government the credit for looking out for her safety, then fine.
[/quote]

Capitalism created government?

Do tell![/quote]

Not government, the modern state. There was no need for it before the large-scale institution of private property, the protection of which is its primary function.
[/quote]

Wrong.

The modern state was created by anti-Monarchists thru “democratic” wars. The monarchs controlled the property and the early European revolutionaries did not like it. The state was only possible because of private property. All government before democracy were based completely on private property.

As far as your “large scale institution of private property” argument is concerned…how you say…?

False dilemma.

Without private property civilization as we know it would not exist.

There would be no universities, hospitals, museums, art, etc. Indeed, we would still be hunter-gatherers eking out an pitiful existence in the muck and mire.[/quote]

You need to quit presenting Ryan with facts. It seems to be more than he can bear.

He might get mad and call you a pussy for not “thinking”.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
False dilemma.[/quote]

…So to get this straight, you don’t consider the dictatorships, monarchies, and empires that existed before private property to be worse than this “modern state”?

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
False dilemma.[/quote]

…So to get this straight, you don’t consider the dictatorships, monarchies, and empires that existed before private property to be worse than this “modern state”?[/quote]

Not to be pedantic but the notion of private property must predate any institution claiming to have a monopoly of authority on any geographical place. Property is inherently claimed by claiming authority over a particular domain.

Economically speaking, privately owned government (monarchy) is better than “publicly owned” government (the modern state). The modern state is an attempt to collectivize privately owned property for the mythical “greater good”.

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:Wrong.

The modern state was created by anti-Monarchists thru “democratic” wars. The monarchs controlled the property and the early European revolutionaries did not like it. The state was only possible because of private property. All government before democracy were based completely on private property.[/quote]

Sorry, you’re too late. You’re still trying to come in after the institution of private property. I’m not saying the character was exactly the same, but during the tribal period in many civilizations when there was little concept of property except as it belonged to the entire tribe, there was no real state in the modern sense. In other words, you imply a distinct break where there is none. Sure, the character of private property changed, but it was already private property. The “modern state” is actually a somewhat deceptive term, since it has been around for quite some time.

[quote]As far as your “large scale institution of private property” argument is concerned…how you say…?

False dilemma.

Without private property civilization as we know it would not exist.[/quote]

Perhaps, but this is completely irrelevant. I made no mention of its effect on civilization in general, but of its effect on the government.

Perhaps, but again, irrelevant.

Well, to pick an instance at random, plantation owners in America imported slaves because they were profitable.

More generally, you’re looking at things backwards. Why would the state do anything outside of its effect on the economy? Why would they fight imperialist wars except because of economic pressure to do so? Read some history, most recent wars fall into this category: imperialist powers either looking to preserve or expand their access to markets and resources. See the Vietnam War, for example.

And since you didn’t dispute it, I suppose you agree to give the state credit for our present opulence? Strange then, that you so adamantly support free enterprise when the government is so much more productive.

It doesn’t take a genius to see that you don’t have a clear conception of what capitalism is, as you continue to conflate it with the market. Syndicalism features a free-market, but I doubt you’d call it capitalism. Fascism does not feature a free-market, though it doesn’t resemble socialism. If you actually think about it for a minute (which you so stubbornly refuse to do), capitalism and the free-market are not at all necessarily connected (outside of the capitalist mythology). Actually, libertarians do a good job of pointing this out, when they criticize the United States economy and government.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
False dilemma.[/quote]

…So to get this straight, you don’t consider the dictatorships, monarchies, and empires that existed before private property to be worse than this “modern state”?[/quote]

To the extent that they differ from the “modern state,” no (at least, not in terms of body count).

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
False dilemma.[/quote]

…So to get this straight, you don’t consider the dictatorships, monarchies, and empires that existed before private property to be worse than this “modern state”?[/quote]

privat property is older than the state, live and learn!!!

See, this is the reason your analysis is so mistaken. The modern state is not at all an attempt to collectivize property. Everything about it is tailored to protect its concentration in a few hands.

Of course, this more realistic observation isn’t nearly as good at justifying childish Austrian musings.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

Well, to pick an instance at random, plantation owners in America imported slaves because they were profitable.

More generally, you’re looking at things backwards. Why would the state do anything outside of its effect on the economy? Why would they fight imperialist wars except because of economic pressure to do so? Read some history, most recent wars fall into this category: imperialist powers either looking to preserve or expand their access to markets and resources. See the Vietnam War, for example.
[/quote]

You are looking at this just as a good collectivist would. The state, acting in it’s own self interest, is not the same thing as individuals pursuing there own goals within a free market system. Individuals don’t fight in wars unless it be self defense or there is come coercive force acting on them.

[quote]
And since you didn’t dispute it, I suppose you agree to give the state credit for our present opulence? Strange then, that you so adamantly support free enterprise when the government is so much more productive. [/quote]

Respond to what you actually read on your computer screen. Quit jumping to conclusions.

[quote]
It doesn’t take a genius to see that you don’t have a clear conception of what capitalism is, as you continue to conflate it with the market. [/quote]

They are one in the same: property and the means of production are privately owned.

How many different forum members have explained this to you now?

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

The modern state is not at all an attempt to collectivize property. Everything about it is tailored to protect its concentration in a few hands.
[/quote]
Which necessarily means collectivization.

On the other hand, in a free market based economy there would be many hands and nothing to worry about.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
False dilemma.[/quote]

…So to get this straight, you don’t consider the dictatorships, monarchies, and empires that existed before private property to be worse than this “modern state”?[/quote]

To the extent that they differ from the “modern state,” no (at least, not in terms of body count).[/quote]

Minus war, you’re simply wrong.

We’re all “collectivist.” I’m just honest about it.

Even if that were true, it’s not individuals who start wars.

[quote]
And since you didn’t dispute it, I suppose you agree to give the state credit for our present opulence? Strange then, that you so adamantly support free enterprise when the government is so much more productive. [/quote]

I’m not jumping to conclusions, I know full well you would never credit the state with those developments (as well you shouldn’t), but in order for your previous statement to make sense, in order to be consistent, this is what you would have to do. Maybe you would like to revise an earlier statement (hint, hint).

[quote]
It doesn’t take a genius to see that you don’t have a clear conception of what capitalism is, as you continue to conflate it with the market. [/quote]

[quote]They are one in the same: property and the means of production are privately owned.

How many different forum members have explained this to you now?[/quote]

Precisely (and this is what I’ve been saying)!, which has absolutely 0 to do with free markets. How many times, in how many different ways, do you need this explained? Would a picture help? Before you dash off a witty riposte, make sure you understand what you’re typing.

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]Beowolf wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
False dilemma.[/quote]

…So to get this straight, you don’t consider the dictatorships, monarchies, and empires that existed before private property to be worse than this “modern state”?[/quote]

To the extent that they differ from the “modern state,” no (at least, not in terms of body count).[/quote]

Minus war, you’re simply wrong.[/quote]

Minus war? Of course minus war I’m simply wrong. Minus the place where the vast majority die, of course not many die.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

No, we are all not collectivist. Speak for yourself.

[quote]
And since you didn’t dispute it, I suppose you agree to give the state credit for our present opulence? Strange then, that you so adamantly support free enterprise when the government is so much more productive. [/quote]

The state is not needed for these developments (hint, hint).

[quote]
It doesn’t take a genius to see that you don’t have a clear conception of what capitalism is, as you continue to conflate it with the market. [/quote]

[quote]They are one in the same: property and the means of production are privately owned.

How many different forum members have explained this to you now?[/quote]

Free market = capitalism

It’s that simple. You can revert back to what Marx says all you want, but it won’t change the definition.

This is your problem as you continue to use Marx’s false definition of capitalism.

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]Dustin wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

Ironically, capitalism destroys many small-scale operations like this.

[/quote]

How?

Legit curious as to how this happens, according to you.

Maybe small businesses go under because there is no market for the goods the business is attempting to sell. Maybe the business owner made bad business decisions. I just fail to see how capitalism destroys small businesses.[/quote]

Well, according to the admittedly obscure source of every single economics 101 textbook in the world, what makes capitalism so great is competition. Do you suppose that there are “weight classes” for this competition? Isn’t that a frequent complaint against Wal-Mart? That they come in and decimate local businesses?

In addition, some government regulations disproportionately burden small businesses, to the advantage of larger firms, of course.[/quote]

And yet, most businesses are small businesses.

Your idea that big businesses always have an advantage complete nonsense. In some areas they do, in others they dont.

[/quote]

Most businesses in the aerospace industry are not small businesses. Most businesses in the automotive industry are not small businesses. Most businesses in the pharamaceutical industry are not small businesses.[/quote]

So? You choose areas where sheer size is an advantage and then you wonder why you encounter large companies?