Ron Paul - A Tale of Two Speeches

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Ignoring the important role that government has played in facilitating and, in many instances, actively contributing toward the wealth of private companies (read, you’re wrong), it doesn’t matter, because they wouldn’t have had the funding if left to the market anyway.[/quote]

My brother in law saved his money for several years, quit his job and opened a furniture store, that was 7 years ago. He does pretty well with that store, he has 8 employees, and pays his taxes on time.

Now tell me how did government help him? I can tell you how they hurt him, but how exactly did they help him?[/quote]

Maybe I was unclear. I didn’t mean all companies. Mainly big ones. My apologies.

You’re actually right, big business and the state are oftentimes harmful to small companies. That is to say, capitalism is often harmful to small companies.

22

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
[b]Caution, if you see anyone attempting to start a business do not attempt to stop them yourself. I repeat DO NOT attempt to stop him yourself. Report the incident to your nearest community organizer they are trained on how to deal with such a dangerous person.

This has been a paid announcement from your government supported local community organization.

Thank you.[/b]
[/quote]

That would be silly. Capitalism stops them pretty effectively itself. No need for intervention.
[/quote]

In a free market you might be stopped by someone building a better mouse trap for less money and passing that savings onto the customer.

Nothing wrong with that is there?[/quote]

No, but what does that have to do with capitalism? You’re conflating things again.

23

[quote]orion wrote:I go with the broken window theory.

You need to crush the lemonade stands or else entrepreneurship spreads like a disease![/quote]

Ironically, capitalism destroys many small-scale operations like this. Thanks for wiping out this little girl’s dreams, orion! But, now that capital will be put to more productive uses.

By the way, did you even watch the video? They said it was an unsafe location. But whatever. That post certainly was less painful than digging yourself deeper into the hole you started with your last post.

24

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Ignoring the important role that government has played in facilitating and, in many instances, actively contributing toward the wealth of private companies (read, you’re wrong), it doesn’t matter, because they wouldn’t have had the funding if left to the market anyway.[/quote]

My brother in law saved his money for several years, quit his job and opened a furniture store, that was 7 years ago. He does pretty well with that store, he has 8 employees, and pays his taxes on time.

Now tell me how did government help him? I can tell you how they hurt him, but how exactly did they help him?[/quote]

Maybe I was unclear. I didn’t mean all companies. Mainly big ones. My apologies.

You’re actually right, big business and the state are oftentimes harmful to small companies. That is to say, capitalism is often harmful to small companies.
[/quote]

Fascism.

Fascism.

Fascism.

Please learn the difference.

Capitalism implies free markets. They cannot be free if they are being manipulated by fascist policies.

25

Big Lifter;) -

It’s not facism when free markets evolve naturally into abominations.
It’s human nature that rules will be bent at a point when the strongest competitor(s) will cross some line and the others will have to follow in terms of roughlessness.
I have zero problems with free markets, but how do I let them stay that way?

Humans have the tendency to cheat and act dumb, or better to create systems too complex for them to understand.
Couple this with globalization and today’s networking and traffic system and and you get surreal consequences, for instance:

In Europe, where bureaucracy in brussels decides fishing quota and banana size.
But also, multinational companies that harvest a third world country’s ressources that nobody from upper management will ever see with his own eyes. No identification with a product and no ties or responsibility to the land.
I don’t know what’s worse.

26

Oh and, the video with the girl is jaw dropping.

Yes, that’s one of these times when I can feel genuine, deep hatred in me for bureaucracy and, to an extent, parts of the human mind.

27

You guys seem to have a lot of history together, so forgive me if I’m overlooking something, but you both seem to be trapped in a false dichotomy. There isn’t only capitalism and socialism. Intelligent regulation is capable of creating a hybrid that’s the better than either system.

Also, if anyone was curious, T-Nation’s spell check objects strenuously if you put an e in gray.

28

"Intelligent regulation is capable of creating a hybrid that’s the better than either system. "
it’s the nature of the game that people create structure to both create and worship/detest a dualistic god.

but please elaborate - for as long as you want.
(You’re pretty much talking about artificial intelligence)

29

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Big Lifter;) -

It’s not facism when free markets evolve naturally into abominations.[/quote]

People voting themselves favors from the treasury is called “nature” now?

[quote]
It’s human nature that rules will be bent at a point when the strongest competitor(s) will cross some line and the others will have to follow in terms of roughlessness.[/quote]

Without the power of government to coerce, the strongest have absolutely no line to cross that won’t benefit the consumer.

[quote]
I have zero problems with free markets, but how do I let them stay that way?[/quote]

It’s called a constitution. We have one. People are ignoring it because they think markets aren’t “really” free. The irony is painful.

[quote]
Humans have the tendency to cheat and act dumb, or better to create systems too complex for them to understand.[/quote]

So why are you trying to control them? You can’t. They WILL abuse a system is a system has power. So let there by no system with sufficient power to abuse. The ONLY system like that? Government.

[quote]
In Europe, where bureaucracy in brussels decides fishing quota and banana size.[/quote]

I agree, this is insane.

[quote]
But also, multinational companies that harvest a third world country’s ressources that nobody from upper management will ever see with his own eyes. No identification with a product and no ties or responsibility to the land.[/quote]

This is a problem… how? They’re paying workers right? No coercion? No slave labor?

Why is this at all a problem? And nations don’t “own” resources. So third-world country’s don’t have any. Individuals or groups of individuals own resources, the only time this isn’t true is when a government owns something.

The problem with this statement is that you’re pretending an entire nation is a single entity, when such a thing is preposterous.

30

[quote]mbm693 wrote:
You guys seem to have a lot of history together, so forgive me if I’m overlooking something, but you both seem to be trapped in a false dichotomy. There isn’t only capitalism and socialism. Intelligent regulation is capable of creating a hybrid that’s the better than either system.

Also, if anyone was curious, T-Nation’s spell check objects strenuously if you put an e in gray. [/quote]

Two words: Unintended consequences.

The proper amount of regulation was pretty well laid out in the Constitution. Let the states try out other kinds of regulations, and then let the most prosperous system propagate.

31

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Ignoring the important role that government has played in facilitating and, in many instances, actively contributing toward the wealth of private companies (read, you’re wrong), it doesn’t matter, because they wouldn’t have had the funding if left to the market anyway.[/quote]

My brother in law saved his money for several years, quit his job and opened a furniture store, that was 7 years ago. He does pretty well with that store, he has 8 employees, and pays his taxes on time.

Now tell me how did government help him? I can tell you how they hurt him, but how exactly did they help him?[/quote]

Maybe I was unclear. I didn’t mean all companies. Mainly big ones. My apologies.

You’re actually right, big business and the state are oftentimes harmful to small companies. That is to say, capitalism is often harmful to small companies.
[/quote]

And small companies can be quite damaging to large ones if they are able to build a better mouse trap. That is the beauty of capitalism. The best product or service, marketed correctly and sold at the proper price wins the consumer.

32

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
economic rightists will come to power and finally melt down capitalism for good.[/quote]

Yea, because capitalism is pure evil. Can you imagine all of the bad outcomes from someone thinking of a better way to build a product, or worse yet innovating something brand new, take it to market, make money and make other peoples lives better.

How dare they!

Crush it man, destroy it.

Ha ha kids, yea gotta love em.[/quote]
Ahhh if only things were that simple…

33

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:Fascism.

Fascism.

Fascism.

Please learn the difference.

Capitalism implies free markets. They cannot be free if they are being manipulated by fascist policies.[/quote]

“Come ON guys! No fair! It’s not capitalism, it’s FASCISM!”

So in other words, you’ve given up on capitalism?

34

[quote]ZEB wrote:And small companies can be quite damaging to large ones if they are able to build a better mouse trap. That is the beauty of capitalism. The best product or service, marketed correctly and sold at the proper price wins the consumer.
[/quote]

There are lots of smart software engineers out there, but nobody has taken down Microsoft.

Besides, this still has precious little to do with capitalism.

35

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:Yea, because capitalism is pure evil. Can you imagine all of the bad outcomes from someone thinking of a better way to build a product, or worse yet innovating something brand new, take it to market, make money and make other peoples lives better.

How dare they!

Crush it man, destroy it.

Ha ha kids, yea gotta love em.[/quote]

If you say so. I don’t believe that capitalism is evil. I don’t believe in any such thing as evil. I don’t structure everything in terms of good vs evil.

But gosh, you’ve really made me think: how did we ever get anything done before capitalism? Because you know, people hadn’t invented anything before it came along. Nor is a great percentage of our current opulence due to discoveries made by government funding, or scientists with no plans to sell anything.[/quote]

Ryan,
I am not completely sure what your intent was with the above comment, but I think your premise has to be put in proper context.

While you could argue that some form of capitalism has existed at least since the 16th century, and probably for many millennia before that, it is most properly discussed in reference to the 19th and 20th centuries, specifically as it played out in the United States. (Yes, Europe too, but we need to manage the scope of this conversation.)

The zeitgeist, or spirit of the time was one of individual freedom, self reliance, minimal government or outside interference, and the freedom to build or accomplish anything that lie within your ability, willingness and desire to achieve. It was in this setting that the tenets of capitalism, or more specifically free market capitalism (where the means of production are in private hands and not interfered with by government) nurtured and enabled the means of industrialization.

I think it is particularly significant that it was not until the widespread industrialization of nations that the abolishment of slavery was made possible, along with universal suffrage, the eradication of much hunger and disease. The standard of living for the average person increased exponentially. Life expectancy began to increase.

I could continue this list for many paragraphs, but I will get to the point. More good has been done in the last 200 years in the spirit of free market capitalism than had been done in the previous 2000 years (if not 10,000 years) combined. And you miss the point in that those scientist or governments that might have occasionally discovered were most likely driven and funded by capitalistic endeavors.

While I would agree with you that totally free market capitalism is not realistic in this global environment, the closer the bastard hybrid that is put in its place resembles its original form, the better the outcome will be for everyone.

36

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Big Lifter;) -

It’s not facism when free markets evolve naturally into abominations.
It’s human nature that rules will be bent at a point when the strongest competitor(s) will cross some line and the others will have to follow in terms of roughlessness.
I have zero problems with free markets, but how do I let them stay that way?

Humans have the tendency to cheat and act dumb, or better to create systems too complex for them to understand.
Couple this with globalization and today’s networking and traffic system and and you get surreal consequences, for instance:

In Europe, where bureaucracy in brussels decides fishing quota and banana size.
But also, multinational companies that harvest a third world country’s ressources that nobody from upper management will ever see with his own eyes. No identification with a product and no ties or responsibility to the land.
I don’t know what’s worse.[/quote]

I am reminded of the great line from Men In Black delivered by Agent K

~ A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it.~Agent K

It makes me think of the government, you know, as in “We the people.”

Government is not going away, and Socialism is the poison, not the cure for what is left of capitalism…

37

[quote]mbm693 wrote:
You guys seem to have a lot of history together, so forgive me if I’m overlooking something, but you both seem to be trapped in a false dichotomy. There isn’t only capitalism and socialism. Intelligent regulation is capable of creating a hybrid that’s the better than either system.

Also, if anyone was curious, T-Nation’s spell check objects strenuously if you put an e in gray. [/quote]

“Intelligent regulation is possible” ?

Where is it then?

38

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Ignoring the important role that government has played in facilitating and, in many instances, actively contributing toward the wealth of private companies (read, you’re wrong), it doesn’t matter, because they wouldn’t have had the funding if left to the market anyway.[/quote]

My brother in law saved his money for several years, quit his job and opened a furniture store, that was 7 years ago. He does pretty well with that store, he has 8 employees, and pays his taxes on time.

Now tell me how did government help him? I can tell you how they hurt him, but how exactly did they help him?[/quote]

Maybe I was unclear. I didn’t mean all companies. Mainly big ones. My apologies.

You’re actually right, big business and the state are oftentimes harmful to small companies. That is to say, capitalism is often harmful to small companies.
[/quote]

And small companies can be quite damaging to large ones if they are able to build a better mouse trap. That is the beauty of capitalism. The best product or service, marketed correctly and sold at the proper price wins the consumer.
[/quote]

But, but you dont understand!

When they do that they become BIG BUSINESSES THAT CRUSH SMALL BUSINESSES!

Sure, those small businesses built shitty mousetraps that nobody wanted, especially not at the price they sold it, but it is the path to destruction anyway.

Or something like that.

39

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:Fascism.

Fascism.

Fascism.

Please learn the difference.

Capitalism implies free markets. They cannot be free if they are being manipulated by fascist policies.[/quote]

“Come ON guys! No fair! It’s not capitalism, it’s FASCISM!”

So in other words, you’ve given up on capitalism?[/quote]

Democracy has.

40

Which is why I am against democracy.