Ron Paul 2012 Is Offical!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
181

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
You know ZEB, you might be a lot older than the Ron Paul supporters are and you might have helped orchestrate Reagan’s campaign but you know what? That doesn’t give you a free pass when it comes to actually illustrating your points.[/quote]

Hey man take it easy, I think you’re a good poster. But that last request of yours struck me as funny. You see no one can absolutely prove that the world would be a worse place if the US were not “involved”. I think it’s pretty obvious at this point that if it were not for the US the former Soviet Union would probably have owned at least half the world by now. Not to mention other tin pan dictators and their evil deeds.

We are not a perfect country, but you either believe in the US as a dominant world power for good, or you don’t.

Okay?[/quote]
I believe that the US as a dominant world power is definitely for the better. After all the US is the only country that has been founded on the ideals I believe in. That dominance does not have to be exerted through military bases in places like Germany however and what is more, trying to exert it through hundreds of bases all over the world that you spend 1.5 trillion dollars on annually is the surest way to end that dominance. Fact of the matter is, your foreign policy is simply unsustainable and if left unchecked WILL lead to your decline. So closing down some, maybe even most, of your bases is definitely the way to go.
However, I disagree with you on the Soviet issue. In the longterm the Soviet way of governance can never work and the bigger and more populous Socialist states get the worse off they are. So I do not believe that if the US had left the Soviet Union unchecked it would have grown without limits. Would it have grown? Quite possibly yes. Would it still be around? Maybe. Would it stick around? Hell no. It would have glided apart just like it really did because that is the inevitable fate of socialist regimes.

As a side note, have you read anything by Mises?

182

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Here’s another newly announced supporter
[/quote]

you make jokes but the kid gets it – whether he effectively communicates it or not.

183

[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
Hey man take it easy, I think you’re a good poster. But that last request of yours struck me
I believe that the US as a dominant world power is definitely for the better. After all the US is the only country that has been founded on the ideals I believe in. That dominance does not have to be exerted through military bases in places like Germany however and what is more, trying to exert it through hundreds of bases all over the world that you spend 1.5 trillion dollars on annually is the surest way to end that dominance. Fact of the matter is, your foreign policy is simply unsustainable and if left unchecked WILL lead to your decline. So closing down some, maybe even most, of your bases is definitely the way to go.
[/quote]

So its not all the dead soldiers and civilians that should be the reason that America stop with the world police act, its the money?? I agree with you about the bases, but the reasoning behind it is a bit simplistic. You did actually reduce it to a tax and spending issue, when it is so much more than that.

Again are someone speculating. You cant now what would have happened to USSR if USA wasnt theire rival. Zeb is partially right, USA probably kept the sovjets in check, but the sovjets did also keep USA in check. USAs world policing have nothing to do with the spreading of democracy, its all about the interrests of US-Capital. If they where all about the spreading of democracy, then they wouldt help Pinnochet to get to the power or be helping Saddam Hussein in the 80s.

184

[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
I believe that the US as a dominant world power is definitely for the better. [/quote]

Well then essentially we agree.

185

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Here’s another newly announced supporter
[/quote]

you make jokes but the kid gets it – whether he effectively communicates it or not.[/quote]

And it’s all for naught. Funny huh?

186

Of course it’s much more than just a spending issue. Fact of the matter is however that ethics is not what’s going to make America abandon their bases. Money is.

187

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Here’s another newly announced supporter
[/quote]

you make jokes but the kid gets it – whether he effectively communicates it or not.[/quote]

And it’s all for naught. Funny huh?[/quote]

Zeb, be more imaginative and look beyond a simple, single election. It’s the ideas that matter. The fact that a young black man is listening and taking these ideas seriously coming from an old, white man is a big deal.

Good ideas, regardless of who speaks them, will always win out in the end.

188

[quote]Gaius Octavius wrote:
Of course it’s much more than just a spending issue. Fact of the matter is however that ethics is not what’s going to make America abandon their bases. Money is.[/quote]

Good you aknowledges the ethical problems with imperialism/militarism :slight_smile:

And I agree that the powerfull men will probably not abandon the idea of world dominance aslong they can afford it, or in other words have the tax dollars to back up a militaristic policy like that.

189

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Here’s another newly announced supporter
[/quote]

you make jokes but the kid gets it – whether he effectively communicates it or not.[/quote]

And it’s all for naught. Funny huh?[/quote]

Zeb, be more imaginative and look beyond a simple, single election. It’s the ideas that matter. The fact that a young black man is listening and taking these ideas seriously coming from an old, white man is a big deal.

Good ideas, regardless of who speaks them, will always win out in the end.[/quote]

I think it’s a bit ironic that you accuse me of not looking beyond a single election. When in reality it’s you and those who back Paul who refuse to not look beyond three elections! If it’s about change then let’s have some real change. But you are forgetting the single most important thing that must first occur BEFORE there can be the kind of change that most of us want. That is, we actually have to win an election. As long as Obama wins we can type back and forth on this site for the next four years and it won’t mean a thimble full of spit. So you can chide me all you want for NOT being a purest but I prefer to get half a loaf which is always better than none.

190

[quote]ZEB wrote:
I think it’s a bit ironic that you accuse me of not looking beyond a single election. When in reality it’s you and those who back Paul who refuse to not look beyond three elections! If it’s about change then let’s have some real change. But you are forgetting the single most important thing that must first occur BEFORE there can be the kind of change that most of us want. That is, we actually have to win an election. As long as Obama wins we can type back and forth on this site for the next four years and it won’t mean a thimble full of spit. So you can chide me all you want for NOT being a purest but I prefer to get half a loaf which is always better than none.[/quote]

It’s not that simple in this case because a man with nothing more than principle – who cannot deceive people with an expensive suit or fake smile – must actually change people’s beliefs.

This is no small feat when one is up against propaganda and the MSM. If it were not for the internet none would even know who he is because the establishment MSM would have been able to continue to ignore him.

191

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Incidentally, stubborness and the ability to bullshit oneself seem to grow with age so maybe you would do good to take your own advice and keep your age in mind when it comes to your worldview?
[/quote]

Wow, a personal attack over my world view opinion. I’m a little surprised I thought you were above that.

Okay, so according to Internet protocol I have to insult you back, right?

[/quote]

What personal attack?

You constantly remind some posters that their age means that they know jack shit and that their opinions will change over time.

At least the last part is undoubtedly true, especially once the taxman cometh and they have to actually pay for their utopian ideas themselves, but other ages have other problems when it comes to their worldview, i.e. they are not nearly as ready to change theirs as younger people are.

192

“This Ron Paul, he is changing…the Republican Party, more so than the Republicans apparently realize.”
-Juan Williams, FOX News journalist

He is indeed changing the political discourse in this country. He is forcing people to confront the idea of what the proper role of government ought to be.

193

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

Incidentally, stubborness and the ability to bullshit oneself seem to grow with age so maybe you would do good to take your own advice and keep your age in mind when it comes to your worldview?
[/quote]

Wow, a personal attack over my world view opinion. I’m a little surprised I thought you were above that.

Okay, so according to Internet protocol I have to insult you back, right?

[/quote]

What personal attack?

You constantly remind some posters that their age means that they know jack shit and that their opinions will change over time.

At least the last part is undoubtedly true, especially once the taxman cometh and they have to actually pay for their utopian ideas themselves, but other ages have other problems when it comes to their worldview, i.e. they are not nearly as ready to change theirs as younger people are. [/quote]

It could be because we’ve already made those mistakes. Are you willing to fall off your bike again the way you did when you were first learning to ride? Are you willing to get in your car and drive with a bottle of beer in your hand the way you might have done when you were a teen? Are you willing to think that government is the answer the way you may have when you were in college?

Along with experience comes just a bit of wisdom. And I’m not willing to give up on ideas that have proven to work over time for some hair brained college kids idea of what serves as good public policy. Sheesh, they only first learned those two words “public” and “policy” belonged together a handful of years ago.

I thought I handled the younger posters on this thread gingerly, but that isn’t good enough for you because we happen to disagree on Ron Paul. And maybe it’s because I’ve lived long enough to know that lone wolves like Paul, with all his other baggage, do not get elected to the Presidency. And, I’ve lived long enough to know that government does not change at the drop of a hat. It may take another republican to move the ball say 20 yards down the field. And then another one to take it 20 more yards. This Paul obsession that some have on this thread is not only silly but exactly what the Obama people want. Which is something else that I’ve learned through my 25 years experience over the twenty something’s. Idealism is fine as long as it’s tempered with reality.

But in order to understand all of this one would have had to participate in several election cycles and have the wisdom to figure out how to really get things done and not just dream about a certain utopia that will never be delivered in one fell swoop by any one dream candidate, especially one that will never be elected to the Presidency.

You’re right, I operate within a tighter circle of thinking than someone who is 20 years old. But keep in mind that circle is filled with the scars of many wars fought, some won, some lost. And knowing how to get things done and how to avoid falling flat on your face. You’ll have to forgive me if I don’t want to repeat mistakes of the past in order to show how open minded I am.

We all have to give up a lot as we get older. Strength, speed, even your hairline (ouch)…Thank God I have at least some wisdom to replace those things. The average age of the typical poster on this site is probably 25 or so. Maybe I no longer belong on T Nation because of my age. Now that’s an argument that you can win. And one you’d probably have much support in pursuing.

Other than that, I’ll be sticking to what I know to be the truth from years of seeing it and living it.

Zeb

194

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Here’s another newly announced supporter
[/quote]

you make jokes but the kid gets it – whether he effectively communicates it or not.[/quote]

And it’s all for naught. Funny huh?[/quote]

Zeb, be more imaginative and look beyond a simple, single election. It’s the ideas that matter. The fact that a young black man is listening and taking these ideas seriously coming from an old, white man is a big deal.

Good ideas, regardless of who speaks them, will always win out in the end.[/quote]

Lets see, Ron Paul brings someone to the GOP and still they try and make jokes.

I don’t take what trib did to seriously he is probably still devastated Newt Gingrich set the record for fastest Campaign implosion.

195

[quote]John S. wrote:
Newt Gingrich set the record for fastest Campaign implosion.
[/quote]

I’m actually happy about that. And I hope he pulls out of the race. Gingrich can only hurt the republicans by drawing support away from someone who might be able to beat Obama. I can name a few others who I’d like to see implode.

And as far as candidates who cannot win, I’m glad Huckabee decided not to run. That bit of news actually made my day.

196

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Here’s another newly announced supporter
[/quote]<<< you make jokes but the kid gets it – whether he effectively communicates it or not.[/quote]Fair enough. I confess I made the Jar Jar post before I even watched it because it doesn’t really matter who supports anybody. He does actually have some sound political intuition in some areas. It took Obama to wake him up. A good thing in that sense. Like Ron Paul himself. He does not understand the geopolitical arena at all.