Ron Beats Rudy in NH?

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Ancient history and recent history show it gets bad when the superpower withdraws.

Kind of like when GB left India Pakistan or the SU the East European countries Kosovo …

It was a nightmare…

Wait a minute…

Thanks for making my point.

Pakistan did not exist when the British occupied India and Kosovo that has never been occupied by the SU but was part of communist but independent Yugoslavia.

So what is your point?

Other then that India and Pakistan splitted remarkably peaceful without GB and that the Kosovo nothing to do with the SU while millions of now free and prospering people were glad to see that superpower go?

Since Pakistan was part of India when the Brits left it doesn’t count? The place is a disaster and they have nukes. Bad situation.

I am aware that Yugo was “independent” but they were still heavily in the Soviets camp. That place would not have broken up and those atrocities would not have happened if the Soviet Union didn’t collapse.[/quote]

Zap, you are correct, and it is only through extraordinary mental gymanstics that Orion flays a shred of truth:
(from Wiki:)[i]
Some critics allege that British haste led to the cruelties of the Partition.[9] Because independence was declared prior to the actual Partition, it was up to the new governments of India and Pakistan to keep public order. No large population movements were contemplated; the plan called for safeguards for minorities on both sides of the new state line. It was an impossible task, at which both states failed.

There was a complete breakdown of law and order; many died in riots, massacre, or just from the hardships of their flight to safety. What ensued was one of the largest population movements in recorded history. According to Richard Symonds[10]
�?? at the lowest estimate, half a million people perished and twelve million became homeless �??

However, some argue that the British were forced to expedite the Partition by events on the ground.[11], Law and order had broken down many times before Partition, with much bloodshed on both sides. A massive civil war was looming by the time Mountbatten became Viceroy. After World War II, Britain had limited resources[12], perhaps insufficient to the task of keeping order. Another view point is that while Mountbatten may have been too hasty he had no real options left and he achieved the best he could under difficult circumstances[13].

Historian Lawrence James concurs that in 1947 Mounbatten was left with no option but to cut and run. The alternative being getting involved in a potentially bloody civil war from which it would be difficult to get out[14]
[/i]

Some estimates for the deaths during and after Partition–the policy forced on the departing British–were as high as 1.5 million, and the number of people displaced was 20 millions. (None of whom, by the way, are claiming a right to return.)

So perhaps the simplest lesson in this is that Imperial withdrawal is good, but partitions lead to strife.
Or, tribes united in their hatred of the Imperial Power will soon learn, it its absence, to hate each other.

[quote]lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
That place would not have broken up and those atrocities would not have happened if the Soviet Union didn’t collapse.

Whom should we be crediting for said collapse?[/quote]

The Soviets.

Zap, I partially agree that when a super power pulls out there is bound to be a destabilizing factor.

However, I’m certain that any nation would prefer to govern their own land and people as they see fit, regardless of the growing pains involved.

Besides, don’t you think that Americans should take care of Americans first? All of these massive resources are being squandered over seas when they could be better utilized at home for the benefit of regular Americans.

Just think of what good could come from spending 1 trillion dollars in America rather than in Iraq.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

How much blood is being spent in South Korea, Japan or Germany? You can very well take the position that the U.S. military shouldn’t be stationed abroad - but I think you’d be in the minority. So McCain’s stating that he’d like to continue that post WWII status quo for international military commitments hardly counts as a Howard Dean scream…

McCain was fielding a question from an anti-Iraq isolationist, and, given his general temperment, did pretty well.

Sloth wrote:

I was under the impression that our bases in S. Korea, Japan, and Germany acted as a defense in those nations (and, somehow, ours). Therefore, we are prepared to spill the blood of our own in their defense. Not to mention our own treasure. So yeah, we are subsidzing the defense of other regions and nations with both, blood and treasure. [/quote]

Yeah, after WWII we established bases in Japan and Germany, in the heart of our former enemies for our defense, and then evolved very good strategic relationships with the new governments. I don’t know if our Korean bases were circa WWII or the Korean War. How many voters would be complaining if Iraq turned into something akin to South Korea, let alone Japan or Germany?

BTW, what’s with the use of “treasure” all of a sudden - is that from a Ron Paul speech?

[quote]
Sloth wrote:

And, what of it, if N. Korea was to invade S.Korea in our absence? Does anyone really think we’d be next on the N. Korea conquering tour? Extend that question to other nations and regions we’re presently subsidizing.[/quote]

No, but Japan would be awfully jumpy - who knows how China would react? I would assume NK wouldn’t take any such action without their prior consent, but you never know. If not, you could very easily have a regional conflagration that would have worldwide economic repercussions, at the very least.

That’s a valid position, obviously, but it’s essentially an isolationist stance - hardly the stance favored by a majority, if the positions of the present candidates are at all representative. The idea that enunciating a non-isolationist foreign policy stance that essentially posits trying to turn Iraq into a stable place is a Howard Dean scream is amusing.

In fact, I’ll bet you two tubs of whatever kind of * Metabolic Drive, Grow! Whey or Surge Recovery you want that neither party’s presidential candidate will support an isolationist foreign policy during the general election, nor will such candidate have supported isolationist foreign policy during the primaries. PM me if you want to take me up on it.

Edited to cover the range of products I meant to cover in my proposed wager.

[quote]

Jason32 wrote:
Irrelevant. Look at the evidence, if McCain has his way there will be another hundred years of that nonsense:

BostonBarrister wrote:
Did you even understand his point? He wants to stabilize Iraq so our presence there is akin to our presence in South Korea or Japan. His choice of words for “100 years” was in response to some isolationist questioner - McCain isn’t known for his patience.

Jason32 wrote:
What purpose does it serve to have military bases in these countries. Maybe at one time directly after war, but now?

All it does is serve to bleed more money from American taxpayers, create anti-American sentiment and boost the local economies of those countries.[/quote]

His main point was not to argue for long-term military bases; rather, it was that there’s no prescribed magical date for pulling out. He wants to stabilize Iraq - and, as I pointed out above, most voters would be pretty happy with an Iraq akin to a South Korea.

BTW, I don’t think McCain is a “neo-con” at all. More of a Jacksonian in my view… See here: Foreign Policy: 2020 contenders' views ; An Enduring Peace Built on Freedom

Addendum: Also see here: http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZTM2MGM1NTQ3YjlmYzFiYWY4MWQ4YmUxNjUyNzViODA= ; then here: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTA4MjJhNjA5ZDc1YTA4NDdmYjY2MWM3MjE5YmJmNDk= ; then here: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OGJiOWNkNTAyNjY1NTVlODM5MjZkOTMzNWM3YjM5NzM=

[quote]Jason32 wrote:
Do you honestly believe that without the U.S. policing the world that every other country would turn into a basket case?[/quote]

No, and I also don’t believe that the U.S. should hole itself up inside its borders and only come out when the war’s already big enough to be dangerous to the U.S. domestically either.

Those are the two ends of the spectrum. There’s obviously a vast expanse in between. We’ve done a pretty good job post WWII, IMHO - and we weren’t isolationists.

[quote]Jason32 wrote:
And just think about how much it would benefit the American economy if all the troops were brought home. The housing market alone would turn around almost overnight from its current downward spiral.[/quote]

What are you thinking would cause this? Firstly in the areas where the housing markets have had the biggest collapse, most soldiers could not afford to purchase houses. So if they did live in those areas, there might be an increase in rent, but almost certainly not a demand-driven increase in housing prices. Secondly, do you think they’d all remain on active duty? If not, there would need to be transitions to normal employment, and downward pressure on the wages for those with comparable skills - assuming we aren’t talking about the reservists who have jobs held for them while deployed (NB, those people would already have established residences as well). Maybe not what you’d want when unemployment numbers are trending upward anyway…

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

In fact, I’ll bet you two tubs of whatever kind of Grow! Whey or Surge you want that neither party’s presidential candidate will support an isolationist foreign policy during the general election, nor will such candidate have supported isolationist foreign policy during the primaries. PM me if you want to take me up on it.
[/quote]

Isn’t “non-interventionist” more accurate? Why do you choose to say Isolationist? Ron Paul is a free-trader (the real kind), an advocate of diplomacy, considers sanctions acts of war (Cuba sanctions lifted), etc.

Now, why would I take you up on your bet? Heck, I’ve said for some time now Ron Paul won’t win. I’m predicting a fairly comfortable Obama win, actually. Unless some wild dirt comes up about the guy, he’ll be the next President.

No, I’m sure you’re correct. We will continue to subsidize the defense of other nations. Well, until the borrowing and debt reach a point where it simply can’t be passed off to the next generation.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

In fact, I’ll bet you two tubs of whatever kind of Grow! Whey or Surge you want that neither party’s presidential candidate will support an isolationist foreign policy during the general election, nor will such candidate have supported isolationist foreign policy during the primaries. PM me if you want to take me up on it.

Sloth wrote:
Isn’t “non-interventionist” more accurate? Why do you choose to say Isolationist? Ron Paul is a free-trader (the real kind), an advocate of diplomacy, considers sanctions acts of war (Cuba sanctions lifted), etc.

Now, why would I take you up on your bet? Heck, I’ve said for some time now Ron Paul won’t win. I’m predicting a fairly comfortable Obama win, actually. Unless some wild dirt comes up about the guy, he’ll be the next President.

No, I’m sure you’re correct. We will continue to subsidize the defense of other nations. Well, until the borrowing and debt reach a point where it simply can’t be passed off to the next generation. [/quote]

You’re right - I had non-interventionism in mind. Though Paul’s votes against free-trade agreements that aren’t perfect leave one the impression that he doesn’t care if de facto we’re left with a more isolationist foreign policy than we’d have if he were more pragmatic.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

You’re right - I had non-interventionism in mind. Though Paul’s votes against free-trade agreements that aren’t perfect leave one the impression that he doesn’t care if de facto we’re left with a more isolationist foreign policy than we’d have if he were more pragmatic.[/quote]

True. Some get the impression that he does favor protectionism, like the fella in my avatar. Ron Paul is most definitely aware of comparative advantage and it’s benefits. What he objects to is governement managed trade.

He’s a low to no tarrifs guy. No protectionist subsidizing. And cut down on regulations and taxes on our own industry. An honest to goodness “get government out of the way and let the people trade,” free-trader.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
That place would not have broken up and those atrocities would not have happened if the Soviet Union didn’t collapse.

Whom should we be crediting for said collapse?

The Soviets.[/quote]

This answer is nonsense. Seriously, Sloth - you are a sensible guy. What is it about backing Ron Paul that makes people go absolutely bonkers on history?

You can back Ron Paul all you like - but you should at least try and stay tethered to common sense.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
lixy wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
That place would not have broken up and those atrocities would not have happened if the Soviet Union didn’t collapse.

Whom should we be crediting for said collapse?

The Soviets.

This answer is nonsense. Seriously, Sloth - you are a sensible guy. What is it about backing Ron Paul that makes people go absolutely bonkers on history?

You can back Ron Paul all you like - but you should at least try and stay tethered to common sense.

[/quote]

No, no. I think there’s a misunderstanding. Of course, I didn’t really clarify. As I should have said Soviet communism. I firmly believe that communism is doomed to fail. In this case the Soviets were trying to match our military might. However, we had the free-market (and some debt) to fuel our defense.

The Soviets were doomed trying to match us. Now, I do believe that even had they not tried to mirror our military strength, they would have fallen eventually. Would have taken longer, sure.

Basically, they decided to participate in an arms race, while holding onto a vastly inferior economy.

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

Ancient history and recent history show it gets bad when the superpower withdraws.

[/quote]

The Americans seemed to do pretty okay for themselves after the British Imperial Navy pulled out in 1815.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
The Americans seemed to do pretty okay for themselves after the British Imperial Navy pulled out in 1815. [/quote]

Applying the same standard to America? Have you no shame?

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
BTW, what’s with the use of “treasure” all of a sudden - is that from a Ron Paul speech?

[/quote]

No, it’s from a John Adams speech.

“I am well aware of the toil and blood and treasure that it will cost to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the gloom I can see the rays of ravishing light and glory. I can see that the end is worth more than the means.”

[quote]lixy wrote:
Have you no shame?[/quote]

Only a little.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Ancient history and recent history show it gets bad when the superpower withdraws.

The Americans seemed to do pretty okay for themselves after the British Imperial Navy pulled out in 1815.
[/quote]

Tell that to the natives!

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:

Ancient history and recent history show it gets bad when the superpower withdraws.

Kind of like when GB left India Pakistan or the SU the East European countries Kosovo …

It was a nightmare…

Wait a minute…

Thanks for making my point.

Pakistan did not exist when the British occupied India and Kosovo that has never been occupied by the SU but was part of communist but independent Yugoslavia.

So what is your point?

Other then that India and Pakistan splitted remarkably peaceful without GB and that the Kosovo nothing to do with the SU while millions of now free and prospering people were glad to see that superpower go?

Since Pakistan was part of India when the Brits left it doesn’t count? The place is a disaster and they have nukes. Bad situation.

I am aware that Yugo was “independent” but they were still heavily in the Soviets camp. That place would not have broken up and those atrocities would not have happened if the Soviet Union didn’t collapse.

Zap, you are correct, and it is only through extraordinary mental gymanstics that Orion flays a shred of truth:
(from Wiki:)[i]
Some critics allege that British haste led to the cruelties of the Partition.[9] Because independence was declared prior to the actual Partition, it was up to the new governments of India and Pakistan to keep public order. No large population movements were contemplated; the plan called for safeguards for minorities on both sides of the new state line. It was an impossible task, at which both states failed.

There was a complete breakdown of law and order; many died in riots, massacre, or just from the hardships of their flight to safety. What ensued was one of the largest population movements in recorded history. According to Richard Symonds[10]
�?? at the lowest estimate, half a million people perished and twelve million became homeless �??

However, some argue that the British were forced to expedite the Partition by events on the ground.[11], Law and order had broken down many times before Partition, with much bloodshed on both sides. A massive civil war was looming by the time Mountbatten became Viceroy. After World War II, Britain had limited resources[12], perhaps insufficient to the task of keeping order. Another view point is that while Mountbatten may have been too hasty he had no real options left and he achieved the best he could under difficult circumstances[13].

Historian Lawrence James concurs that in 1947 Mounbatten was left with no option but to cut and run. The alternative being getting involved in a potentially bloody civil war from which it would be difficult to get out[14]
[/i]

Some estimates for the deaths during and after Partition–the policy forced on the departing British–were as high as 1.5 million, and the number of people displaced was 20 millions. (None of whom, by the way, are claiming a right to return.)

So perhaps the simplest lesson in this is that Imperial withdrawal is good, but partitions lead to strife.
Or, tribes united in their hatred of the Imperial Power will soon learn, it its absence, to hate each other.[/quote]

Or maybe that religion is dangerous superstition that leads to violence but can be masked by other quasi-religious collectivist superstitions like imperialism and communism.

Then, the Pakistanis were hardly displaced or refugees, teh Muslim went to Pakistan, the Hindus to India. Case solved.

As I said 1,5 million people out of a few hundred million, they managed to solve this conflict remarkably peaceful.

However the main point was, where I seem to be so terribly in error is that the world does not go down the drain if a Superpower withdraws.

I think the collapse of the SU was all in all a positive event even with Kosovo and Chechnia.

Paul is done for; it’s official.

Was fun while it lasted.

Now it’s just a matter of time before he goes third party…

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
Paul is done for; it’s official.

Was fun while it lasted.

Now it’s just a matter of time before he goes third party…

[/quote]

Paul doesn’t need to waste his time on a third party. They’re posting racist newsletters over an “Extended” period of time(I believe a 10 year period) with his signature on them. Seems to be more than a "couple of newsletters written over a short period of time by a Ghost-writer. Yep, 3rd party run would just be a waste of time now.

I just found this out today, myself. Oh well, guess I’m stuck twiddling my thumbs this election cycle.

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:
Paul is done for; it’s official.

Was fun while it lasted.

Now it’s just a matter of time before he goes third party…

Paul doesn’t need to waste his time on a third party. They’re posting racist newsletters over an “Extended” period of time(I believe a 10 year period) with his signature on them. Seems to be more than a "couple of newsletters written over a short period of time by a Ghost-writer. Yep, 3rd party run would just be a waste of time now.

I just found this out today, myself. Oh well, guess I’m stuck twiddling my thumbs this election cycle.[/quote]

Well…gee…if you feel that way about racist remarks, you may think about retiring Pat Buchanan from your avatar.